My fifth grade son (and I) just finished reading two books: "A View From Saturday" and "Lizzie Bright and the Buckminster Boy". It was a struggle for him because they use a common literary technique of telling a tale assuming that you know what's going on, but never giving you enough facts, or they explain things much later. "A View.." also jumped back and forth in time and changed the person who was "speaking". I suppose it's good for him to see common literary techniques, but to me, it seems like they are the only points to these books. The story gets lost.

In "Lizzie Bright..." there is also a heavy moral tone and lots of fuzzy "meaningful" ideas, like touching the whale. There are also a lot of racism, bullies, death, and bad grownups. Real life, and the teacher is bound and determined to use these novels to make her points. Books that English teachers love - not fifth grade boys. How about an autobiography of Jackie Robinson?

-- SteveH - 05 Dec 2006

-- BarryGarelick - 05 Dec 2006

-- KDeRosa - 05 Dec 2006

Mr. Woodhouse was resigned. The time of year lightened the evil to him. May was better for every thing than February. Mrs. Bates was engaged to spend the evening at Hartfield, James had due notice, and he sanguinely hoped that neither dear little Henry nor dear little John would have any thing the matter with them, while dear Emma was gone.

For all you sentence diagrammers out there, is it James hoping that neither Henry or John get ill while Emma is gone, or is it Mr Woodhouse, or is the sentence badly written?

The full chapter is chapter 37 of Emma.

-- TracyW - 05 Dec 2006

-- RobynW - 18 Nov 2006

Check Saxon (Hake) too. Catherine and I have the one that starts at 6th grade. It is very specific about how to approach writing assignments. I'm sure they have something for the younger grades.

I also went to my local teacher store where they have a ton of writing stuff for every grade. I found a pretty decent book for my eldest. Those stores also sometimes cater to homeschoolers.

-- SusanS - 17 Nov 2006

-- RobynW - 17 Nov 2006

-- KathyIggy - 17 Nov 2006

The school also doesn't send writing home on a regular basis, so parents are often not even aware that there's a problem. Writing homework is almost never assigned. My kids' problems with writing surprised me.

I will follow your suggestion and try to generate ideas at home with them. However, I would love to find an alternative curriculum, like a Saxon-type, incremental approach to writing. I guess it doesn't exist. I know this has been discussed before on this site.

-- RobynW - 17 Nov 2006

I suspect that to be the root of the problem. It is generally much harder to "write about something interesting" than it is to write about a specific topic. Perhaps, if your kids are likely to continue to have open-ended writing, you could work with your kids to figure out a few ideas at home and list them on cards for the next writing assignment.

-- DougSundseth - 17 Nov 2006

It doesn't help that the writing program is very unstructured and open-ended. My kids are shy and don't always like to share their thoughts. My son in particular is self-conscious. I think this contributes to his problems.

Catherine, you once said you needed a KUMON type program for writing. I wonder if you ever found anything. I would appreciate any advice.

-- RobynW - 17 Nov 2006

I've actually seen something like this in my Blog travels but I'll be dipped if I can find it again-

Thanks Dee Hodson

-- DeeHodson^? - 16 Nov 2006

--PV

-- PaulaV - 03 Nov 2006

-- KtmGuest - 01 Nov 2006

The reading homework...each indivdual page corrected or the whole booklet?

My director was quite busy so I couldn't ask him. Last night was my son's first lesson and I'm wondering if I graded them incorrectly.

Thanks!

--PV

-- PaulaV - 01 Nov 2006

This is a long video, but it is excellent. My state desperately needs a group like this.

-- LoneRanger - 25 Oct 2006

-- KtmGuest - 13 Sep 2006

My question is this: does anyone have any thoughts about constructive ways to approach the individual teacher, or the school as a whole, to discuss moving on to something new, and not wasting time doing basically the same thing for the Nth year in a row? I'm so frustrated I want to scream, but I don't think that will get us anywhere.

-- DaleA - 07 Sep 2006

"Mathematics for the profoundly gifted in middle school and high school"

"Advanced summer program for students who love math and entering grades 7 - 9 after the program"

This year's MathPath is already over, but you can read about it for next year, and take the entrance exam [pdf].

-- GoogleMaster - 08 Aug 2006

On a typical school tour, you are shown all the modern classroom buildings and shiny computers, you're told the school has an award from the federal department of education (eh?) and you get a nice, firm handshake from administrators. But none of this tells you anything about whether your child will learn how to decode unfamiliar words, how to multiply two-digit numbers without using a calculator, or to state the year the Civil War started.

Here are just a few suggestions on evaluating schools for your children.

The School Tour In how many classrooms did you see actual teaching taking place, as opposed to seeing the kids working on a project, meeting in small workgroups, writing stories, doing a web search? Actually keep a count. You shouldn't expect (or want) to see teaching all the time in every class, but it should be a strong part of the children's day. Score extra points if you see teaching punctuated with lively teacher questions and student responses.

Make a note of how desks are arranged in each classroom. Is every child's desk facing the teacher? Or, are desks bunched together so that children are in groups facing each other? Beware of schools that diminish the role of the teacher as the leader and instructor, and arrange classrooms so as to make group projects the principle activity.

Look critically at the decorations in the classroom. You certainly expect that a classroom should be an inviting, welcoming place. But is it also reassuring, calming, and designed to assist children on focusing on the teacher and on their lessons? Or, are postings, decorations, colors, etc., so startling that distraction is a certainty?

School Brochures The school will probably have a "Mission Statement" or a sheet such as "Our Philosophy." Usually, such documents tell you almost nothing useful about a school. Every once in a while, though, there is an exception (such as Flossmoor, Illinois).

Get a copy of the school's curriculum outline, which should tell you what specific topics your child actually will be learning, for each individual grade and for each individual subject. (To get a sense of what a complete curriculum outline should look like, it's worthwhile to invest the $20 or so to get a copy of the Core Knowledge Sequence.) Reading Ask about the school's approach to teaching reading ... see if they mention phonics without your prompting. If they are enthusiastic about their "literature-based" program and don't mention phonics, you probably are at a whole language school. Also be cautious if they immediately start emphasizing their "balanced" approach. Look for "word walls" and other whole language hallmarks. What you need to know is the school's specific program for phonics. Which phonics technique is used? Is there a spelling workbook, and does it emphasize phonics letter-groups, or only thematic groups ("words about transportation")? Are all teachers expected to emphasize phonics, or does implementation depend on the tastes and experience of individual teachers? Writing Take note of displayed writing efforts. Do they have substantive topics or do they indicate an emphasis on "me" reflections? Is there a clear structure, or do they ramble? Do opinions stand alone, or are they supported by facts? Are grammar and spelling errors corrected? Literature Are assigned books challenging, uplifting and enriching? Or, does there seem to be an excessive emphasis on gritty, dire social problems and politically-correct heavy issues? Have your heard of the assigned books, or are they mostly less challenging books with recent copyright dates? Is a healthy mix of non-fiction included in assigned reading? Look to see if books are available that have strong, positive characters of the same gender as your child. Math First, check our Math-By-District page. At the school, ask to see the math textbooks used, and write down the full name of the publisher and the specific name of the program (publishers often sell several very different series). If there is no textbook, there will be worksheets or other materials: you can get the publisher and program names from these, often written in small text on the bottom or along the side. Then, back at home, go to our web page on math to find reviews of that program.

Consider whether the emphasis in these books or materials is on political correctness and flashy graphics, or on math. Visit the local Kumon center, or other afterschool tutoring service, and ask them about the district's math program.

Science Do the school officials emphasize learning content in science, or do they only talk about "hands-on experiments" and "discovery"? Active involvement is good, but it always should be designed in support of educational content goals. What is the school's guiding document on what science content is to be learned? Are a broad range of science areas covered in depth, or is there an unbalanced skew towards just a few areas, such as animals or rainforests? Social Studies What topics are taught in history and geography in grades 1, 2 and 3? A progressivist school offers very little substance in these areas before grades 4 or 5, offering instead such limited topics as map-reading skills, "my neighborhood", pioneer and Indian life, and a mere handful of disconnected historical figures. A good school will teach kids how to learn and feed their natural desire to learn by giving them substantive, interesting content in both history and geography.

In upper grades, look to see how they cover the history of Europe and western civilization. Many schools suffice with some thin coverage in a single year, and a startling number of schools jump from ancient civilizations directly to American history, with scant coverage of anything in between.

As one quick but powerful measure, try The Napoleon Test, which many schools will fail! Scheduling Does the school use any double-length periods (block scheduling)? This almost guarantees that the school is run by progressivists. The long periods make it all but impossible for a teacher to use traditional instruction, and all-too-often the time gets filled with movies, projects and activities rather than learning. "Technology" The link between learning and having computers in a school is tentative at best. Do not be easily swayed by dazzling, "curb-appeal" attractions like computer labs. (Conversely, do not be dismayed if a school seems to be more committed to teaching than in loading up on expensive hardware.)

Instead, ask what the kids are actually doing with all these computers. Are they learning about the technology itself and about how a computer operates, perhaps going so far as to dissassemble old computers to study their workings? Or, is there a lot of vague talk about web "research", creating presentations, or "infusing" classwork with "technology"?

And while you're being shown all the new computers, check for proven past "technology" as well: does every classroom have a TV and VCR? If a school has shiny computers in every class but a teacher needs a special requisition for a TV to make a point with a short video, then something is wrong with the priorities. Choice You'll start your child in a school with the best of hopes. But suppose that someday you find that the school is not what you hoped for, or just in general, that your child isn't prospering. Or, you might discover that your two children have quite different learning styles and need schools with differing approaches. Would you have to move just to get a better school? So, find out what choices are available. What is the district's policy on registering your children at another school in the district? Do they use "open enrollment", or are you required to send your kids to the school they assign you to? Are there any charter schools? If choice is allowed, it is a meaningful choice: are curriculum decisions made by individual schools, or by the district? Is it possible to register at schools in adjoining districts? Values, Character and Discipline Pay full attention as you tour the school. Are children corrected when they interrupt? Is swearing tolerated? Do you see anyone holding doors for anyone else? Do students seem to be wandering the hallways between classes? Are lower grade classes chaotic free-for-alls, or does it look like learning is occurring? Look into the junior high level classes: are students actively engaged but also courteously and attentively listening?

What is the penalty for not doing homework? Is there one?

Look at posted artwork -- is it generally in good taste? How are students dressed: appropriately, or anything goes?

Consider visiting at least one Catholic, Lutheran or other values-centered private school if only to calibrate your expectations.

Copyright 2006, The Illinois Loop. All Rights Reserved. Home Page Site Map Contact Us

-- LoneRanger - 12 Jun 2006

The response was entirely an ad hominem and didn't address your argument at all. I might suggest that this is because the responder had no ability to address your argument. ("If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If neither is on your side, pound on the table.")

Also, there are certainly schools with very high percentages of Hispanic kids that do well, and the evidence points to the school's curriculum. See Joanne Jacobs's book for a case study. Nor is that school alone; one school we thought about putting our son in* would also qualify as a case study. Both the school and the district are heavily Hispanic, but Valley View was teaching those kids.

* Valley View Elementary in Adams County, Colorado. Take a look at the "Free and reduced lunch" numbers and compare that school to the state average or the district average. (In the end, we chose to go with a different school because the principal was changing and the new principal was spending her time talking about all the things she was planning to change at the school.)

-- DougSundseth - 15 May 2006

I don't really have a snappy comeback, but wouldn't you profit more as a tutor by saying absolutely nothing? I would think just sitting back and letting the school continue to shoot itself in the foot with all of its excuses would be the way to go if you were truly motivated by money.

By offering up a way for the school to reform itself it seems more likely that you could very well put yourself out of business.

-- SusanS - 15 May 2006

HELP!!!! I need the great minds of KTM to come to my rescue and help me write a clever come back to our local paper. You see, I wrote a letter to the editor in a response to said editor’s opinion that our district’s poor showing on the recently released state reading exam for third grade were due to the Hispanic students in our district. This editor and our district love to place the blame on the kids, especially the hispanic children, instead of looking at poor instructional practices. Our district has 47% Hispanic kids. In my letter I highlighted a study just published by the Center for the Future of Arizona & Morrison Institute for Public Policy titled, "Why Some Schools with Latino Children Beat the Odds and Others Don't". (www.asu.edu/copp/morrison/LatinEd.pdf). My letter included this quote: “No Excuses: Don't even think about playing a blame game when students aren't learning. Have strength to look at the problem and take responsibility.

-Accountability

Don't think the solution is "out there." If students aren't learning, the school needs to change. -Bottom Line: No one is allowed to lag behind. If every student in every classroom isn't learning, the school isn't doing its job.” I ended my letter contrasting a successful district in my state with ours. I used statistics pulled from the state departement of education website to show that this other district has more challenging demographics than ours yet are successfully educating more children. I mentioned using proven successful programs and this other district uses Lindamood-Bell district-wide as their reading program. (My district only uses trendy fad-driven curricula and have been whole language driven for 20 years.)

Now someone has responded with this, “With regard to Lone Ranger’s comment about our School District, Lone Ranger, it should be noted, tutors kids in the district for money. Children who are pulled out of schools by their parents to do private tutoring, so she does profit from finding fault with the district, and I wish she had mentioned that in her letter. Not that her complaints are all completely wrong, but it's important to know somebody's motivation when writing a letter and that she earns a living when schools don't do well and students come to her for help, so that's important to state when writing a letter to the editor complaining about something. You need to be honest about your motivation. Thank you” My motivation for writing the letter had nothing to do with my tutoring. I tutor very part time and currently have a waiting list. My motivation in writing the letter was to educate the editor and other people of our town. I would love your help in creating a great response. Thanks in advance.

-- LoneRanger - 15 May 2006

Hello, your e-mail address [my address deleted] , has been taken from the open sources. My name is [spammer's name deleted]. I am the main manager of Web Click Company. We are engaged in software developing and design. The main office of our Company is located in Lithuania. We are searching for employees to work in our company worldwide. If you wish to have additional income from 4000 to 10 000 dollars a month, working from your house this offer is for you. The choice of vacancies is huge (designers, managers, auditors, financiers). We will offer you the best conditions to work. Also if you own a company or if you are managing director of the company we offer you to cooperation with us.

Please do not reply to this letter. Send your contact data and your CV to this e-mail: [throwaway spammer address deleted] - it is our temproary e-mail.

[my address deleted] sorry for possible disturbance

-- GoogleMaster - 10 May 2006

I want it for a book review, where the author just tosses off a reference to under-funded American schools. The idea that all schools need is more funding is a problem in NZ too.

-- TracyW - 27 Apr 2006

i've completely missed the conversation here!

off for the weekend - back on Monday, & will read!

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Apr 2006

Did you see this?

The Wright Group:

Growing With Mathematics

http://www.wrightgroup.com/index.php/programlanding?isbn=L000000002

This is interesting because The Wright Group used to publish MathLand - the worst of the worst and banned in California. Even The Wright Group dropped it and wiped it off the face of their web site.

It's also interesting because they have been bought out by McGraw^?-Hill who also pushes Everyday Math. Growing With Mathematics (Pre-K - 5th grade) overlaps with Everyday Math. I would have to search around a little to see if they distinguish between the two programs.

From their web site:

"Growing with Mathematics is a core mathematics program that is appropriate for all PreK^? - 5 student populations. The mathematical content and sequence of the program, and the teaching methods it promotes, were determined through extensive field testing and in-depth research. Growing with Mathematics equips students with a variety of thinking strategies they can use to solve problems effectively and confidently. The program addresses NCTM standards and is recognized by the National Science Foundation as a research-based curriculum. The U.S. Department of Education recognizes Growing with Mathematics as a promising program."

Need I say more?

How about this from their 3rd grade course:

"Facts and Basic Skills In third-grade, students are introduced to the meanings of and relationship between multiplication and division. Students develop a strong conceptual understanding of multiplication and division as they model problems with pictures, arrays, and manipulatives."

They are: "introduced to meanings of and relationships between" "develop a strong conceptual understanding" "model problems with pictures, arrays, and manipulatives"

They apparently don't learn to DO anything. They are introduced, but not taught, They develop concepts, but don't use them. They model problems, but don't solve them.

This sounds like a renamed MathLand that is even worse than Everyday Math.

This is from the other part of their web site:

"Everyday Mathematics is a rigorous PreK^?-6 curriculum used across the country. It is scientifically research-based and proven to build students' mathematical knowledge from the basics to higher-order thinking and critical problem solving."

I guess Growing With Mathematics is NOT RIGOROUS. I would have to agree with that. However, Everyday Math is adequate ONLY IF it is carefully supplemented. And, if you have to supplement it, then why not use something better in the first place? By the way, one of the developers of EM says that it is not for the elite. I would extend that to any child who wants to get on the college prep math track in high school. Of course, this means that one can tell who is elite or not when they start one of these programs in first grade.

-- SteveH - 14 Apr 2006

My disrtict, and the neighboring distric, in Connecticut uses Growing with math. I can't seem to find any reviews or info about this curriculum- Ive tried many of the usual places (Illinois loop, Mathematically Correct, NYCHold) but come up dry. Have you, or you posters come across any more info on this program?

Thanks Dee

-- DeeHodson^? - 14 Apr 2006

-- TracyW - 05 Apr 2006

As Susan noted, Strunk and White is excellent; solid, practical advice in an unintimidating short book. The first subject in my edition is, "Form the possessive singular of nouns by adding 's". Rule 17: "Omit needless words". I'd recommend it as a basic guide.

For a more-English take, you might try The New Fowler's Modern English Usage, 3rd Ed). It's longer, and denser, but still solid, practical advice. Some prefer earlier editions, which run to the more prescriptive and idiosyncratic, but I disagree. I can't find my copy around for quotes, sorry.

I rather like Theodore M. Bernstein's Dos, Don'ts, & Maybes of English Usage. More of a reference than a teaching tool, though.

I wouldn't recommend Lynne Truss's Eats, Shoots & Leaves as a general reference. It's an entertaining, book-length rant, and I don't mind having bought it, but it's a bit weak when as actual grammar advice.

-- DougSundseth - 05 Apr 2006

Thanks. I was freaking a bit because of the level of problems. No human being can write a paper while explicitly thinking about the sheer number of things my coworker is getting wrong.

It's really brought home to me the importance of teaching and correcting grammar, punctuation and word use in stages so a lot of this becomes automatic.

I think I might also resort to telling my co-worker to run the grammar checker on the papers. It's bad, but at least it will pick up on seriously incomplete sentences.

One, they are technical people; two, for many of them, English is their second (or third or more) language.

We're talking about someone with a arts degree who is as Kiwi as me.

-- TracyW - 05 Apr 2006

-- SusanS - 04 Apr 2006

-- GoogleMaster - 04 Apr 2006

With great effort. (Sorry, I really don't mean that to be flip.)

What's worked for (and on) me is good editing, and the gradual identification of systematic errors. Each time you work with a new document, identify the one or two biggest systematic problems in the writing and point them out as systematic problems at the same time as you are correcting all of the other, lesser, problems. With luck, the incidence of those problems will drop in future documents and you can then move on to correct less important problems.

(I intend to address your earlier posts here today, but I don't have some of my grammar and writing books with me at work. I'll try to get to the questions when I get home tonight.)

-- DougSundseth - 04 Apr 2006

I keep thinking of the old Strunk and White Element's of Style that has been updated. It's tiny, but it's all there. Or a good used college freshman text.

We talked earlier about the Air Force Writing manual. My dad had an old one, but it looks straightforward, simple and to the point.

-- SusanS - 04 Apr 2006

How do you train a co-worker how to write?

-- TracyW - 04 Apr 2006

-- GoogleMaster - 04 Apr 2006

-- TracyW - 04 Apr 2006

-- TracyW - 04 Apr 2006

Brains Of Very Smart Kids Mature Later

All about the thickening of the cerebral cortex in very smart kids vs smart kids vs average kids.

-- GoogleMaster - 30 Mar 2006

Louisiana's public schools are absolutely appalling.

-- CarolynJohnston - 24 Mar 2006

(I can never remember whether click2 requires registration)

http://www.click2houston.com/education/8216955/detail.html

Katrina Refugees Score Worse Than Texas Youngsters

POSTED: 5:54 pm CST March 23, 2006

Young Hurricane Katrina refugees living in Texas scored considerably worse on a statewide standardized exam than Texas children, and thousands of them could be held back.

Teachers and state officials blame the low scores on New Orleans' poor school system, the trauma of being abruptly uprooted from their homes, and the possibility that some of them were put in the wrong grade after arriving in Texas with no records.

The Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills, a test of reading and math ability, was given in February to third- and fifth-graders, who must pass in order to move up to the next grade. About 38,000 Katrina evacuees are enrolled in Texas schools.

Only 58 percent of evacuees in third grade passed the reading portion, compared with 89 percent of all students. In fifth grade, 46 percent of evacuees passed the reading portion, versus 80 percent among all students.

"We've got kids who are coming into our secondary system and cannot read," Houston school board member Larry Marshall said. "Now that is a tragedy."

Between the two grades, about 2,000 refugees failed. Students who failed will have two more opportunities to pass the test this spring, but some worry the learning gap is too wide to close.

"*Unfortunately a lot of the children came to us two and three years behind.* It's going to be a struggle for a lot of them to catch up," said Texas Education Agency spokeswoman Debbie Graves Ratcliffe.

At New Orleans West, a Houston charter school that opened exclusively for evacuees, the scores were even lower. Twenty-one percent of fifth-graders and 30 percent of third-graders passed. About 10 percent of students in both grades are illiterate, Principal Gary Robichaux said.

Robichaux, who hopes around 50 percent of his students will pass by the second try, mostly blamed the low scores on the disparity between New Orleans education standards and those in Texas.

...

Great, so he'll be pleased if he gets a 50% passing rate.

-- GoogleMaster - 24 Mar 2006

http://www.publicagenda.org/research/pdfs/rc0601.pdf

-- KtmGuest - 18 Feb 2006

The only one we've found that seems good uses "Back to Basics" as a curriculum, and is getting really good results with a low-SES student body (39% free/reduced price lunch).

I know nothing about "Back to Basics" and was wondering if anyone knew enough to comment.

TIA

-- DougSundseth - 03 Feb 2006

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/27/gutierrez.unschooing/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

My favorite quote:

Nailah, who would be in 4th grade if she attended a regular school, seems to enjoy the "unschooled" lifestyle, even if she's a bit confused when asked what exactly she is learning.

"I actually don't know what I'm learning," Nailah said. "I think I'm just having a good time."

-- GoogleMaster - 02 Feb 2006

It's actually a comment from a dad who's fed up with the school curriculum, & whose son was a homework-loser big-time. He thinks ALEKS is fantastic.

I'll try to find the link, but thought I'd get this in here.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Jan 2006

Intervention: I CAN Learn® Education Systems Developer: JRL Enterprises, Inc. More Information

Brief Description Interactive Computer-Aided Natural Learning (I CAN Learn®) is an education software system that delivers algebra and pre-algebra courses to middle and high school students. Universities and community colleges are also adopting the I CAN Learn® system for remedial and developmental math programs. The I CAN Learn® curriculum is designed for students to work at their own pace in a classroom with a one-to-one ratio of students to computers. Each interactive lesson uses the direct instruction method and includes a pretest, review, lesson presentation, guided practice, and posttest. Also included are cumulative reviews, real-world applications, and cumulative tests to determine retention. According to the publishers, the I CAN Learn® curriculum incorporates national and state performance standards, and can be configured to meet state and local Grade Level Expectations (GLEs).

[Ed. Apparently, if you have a one-on-one student/computer ratio, then direct instruction with "pretest, review, lesson presentation, guided practice, and posttest" is OK. Is this what they call 21st century learning? Without teachers?]

. . . . .

The WWC has examined 77 studies of interventions for Middle School Math Curricula to date.

1 study on I CAN Learn® Education Systems that meets evidence standards

2 studies on I CAN Learn® Education Systems that meet evidence standards with reservations

4 studies on I CAN Learn® Education Systems that do not meet evidence screens

1 study on I CAN Learn® Education Systems is currently in review

[Ed. Only one out of 7 reviewed studies met evidence standards, but they get a lot of mileage out of that one. Presumably, it was good evidence. If they keep trying, they might get two.]

-- SteveH - 27 Jan 2006

-- CarolynJohnston - 26 Jan 2006

I CAN LEARN

www.icanlearn.com

Interactive Computer Aided Natural Learning

Their web site says that they have met the evidence standards for the What Works Clearinghouse

Details are pretty thin on their web site.

-- SteveH - 26 Jan 2006

The Science of Scientific Writing

-- AndyLange - 10 Jan 2006

==============================================================

My son is now 19 and a freshman at MIT majoring in math and computer science. He is extremely talented at math. He has never been to school. We've never worried about doing anything sequntially. I've always used the Tetris model of homeschooling with the random pieces falling from the sky, never the traditional beads-on-a-string approach. Here's what we did for math. It might not work for less-mathy kids, but it sure worked for us. It is sort of like learning a foreign language by moving to the country and having to survive, rather than learning a foreign language by studying 10 new vocabulary words a day and introducing 2 verb tenses per semester. I think S would have done much less if we had insisted on a sequential approach. "Real math" is not sequential little increments. "The usual order" is something totally arbitrary that pedagogues came up with.

Elementary PK-5 I used to say we had a "game-based curriculum". We played a lot of dice, card and board games that involved math. Get "Games for Math" by Peggy Kaye for ideas. We owned every math computer game on the market back then. The best ones are the ones where you need to use math to play the game. I avoided the ones where you are drilled for a few problems, and then "rewarded" by shooting a few spaceships or something. We talked a lot about mathy stuff in the car or waiting for food in restaurants. There was no agenda to it. We would just talk about anything off the top of my head to keep him entertained. We did not use a traditional math textbook with formal homework assignments until 9th grade, when he did AP calculus. But we used a lot of children's math books from the library ("Number Devil", "Al Gebra", etc). I also had all of those "WhatYour Nth Grader Should Know" books, and I went thru the math sections like a check list to make sure he had all of it. We bought all the Doug Downing "Easy Way" books (algebra, trig, calculus) and I read them to him like story books. Whenever he got bogged down in the explanations, I just skipped ahead to where the story picked up. A year or 2 later I would go through it again, with the explanations, a year or two after that we would make the final pass and include all the footnotes and end-of chapter problems. These all overlapped. We did the first pass on the algebra one in 3th grade, and the first pass on the trig and calc ones in 4th grade. We did all the teaching company videos. But I never asked him to do any problems with them. He would just watch them. Also the old Square One on PBS. He never memorized the multiplication tables (neither did I). I taught him the little tricks I figured out as a kid to compute them on the spot, and he invented some new ones. The tricks involve a much higher level of mathematical understanding than memorizing the table, plus they also work for bigger numbers than 12X12.

Middle School 6-8 At the beginning of 6th grade we discovered Mathcounts, and our lives changed. The math was an exact match for him. The problems are extremely challenging, varied, interesting, and combine multiple areas of math in one problem. They sometimes require stuff like combinatorics and number theory that I didn't see into college. Competition math is totally non-sequential. When newcomers start on Mathcounts, they just jump in the stream wherever everyone else is working. At first they can't do it. It takes about 100 problems of a solution book or person walking them through how to do it before they start to get the hang of it. Then, the first years can maybe get 20% of the problems. The second year, the problems don't get any harder, but the kids are better at it. Maybe they can get 50%. Third year maybe 70%. There is a tremendous amount of preparation material out there for contests. We have a huge supply of problem books with solutions, for contests at various levels. S learned by doing problems, with all the math mixed together.

High School Camp - the summer after 8th grade S started attending USA-Canada Mathcamp. 5 weeks of math-nerd paradise! A huge smorgasbord of offerings at all levels. Kids pick and choose what they feel like doing every day. Some classes are one-lecture long, others might be 2 weeks, or the entire 5 weeks long. Topology, Field Theory, Optics, Problem Solving, Cryptography. A total mish-mash of subjects that the staff is interested in (often has PhDs^? in) and makes available to the kids. It is totally non-linear. No pre-reqs, homework sets, exams, grades. The kids just jump in it and play around. Everyone is thrilled to be there and looks forward to it all year. 9th Grade - S had already had 3 passes thru Calculus the Easy Way spread over 5 years, plus watched some calculus videos. I got a bunch of AP review books and old AP problems. He worked through those, then took the AP Calculus BC exam at the end of 9th grade. I bought a calculus textbook, but he never used it. 10th grade - he did distance learning courses for Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra. This was his first experience actually working through a math textbook and dealing with homework sets and exams. He HATED that aspect of it (too much drill-and-kill even at this level). I had to force him to sit down and do it while he bitched bitterly, particularly on the multivariable which didn't involve as much new material as we had assumed. But he got through, and made As. He also read an AP Statistics review book and took the AP exam. 11th grade - started auditing grad level math courses at UT (Abstract Algebra, Algebraic Topology). 12th grade - Audited 4 grad courses. Because of conflicts with college visits, he was able to do varying amounts of the work, including attending. But he got something significant out of each of them. Also self studied differential equations using lectures and materials from MIT's OpenCourseWare^? site (free),

College Applications We ended up with 10 AP scores (all self-study), 4 scores on SAT II subject tests (in addition to the regular SAT I scores), 3 grades from UT distance learning courses, 2 letters from UT profs stating what his grade would have been in their grad course if he had been allowed to register. I put everything together on one big master transcript. I included the things he studied at home, sort of arbitrarily bundled into "courses". I did not include any parent assigned grades. The transcript is 2 pages. There is an additional 5 page document with course descriptions (textbooks used, etc. Max few lines per course). There is also a one-page "school profile" describing our general educational philosophy. It makes it clear that we were homeschooling in order to attain the highest possible level of academic success, not for any religious reason. It also makes clear that the student had plenty of opportunity for social interactions. We got a rec letter from one of his math profs at UT, from one of the coaches of the USA Computing Olympiad, and from a homeschool parent who taught several classes that included my son. He also had an extensive list of national and some international awards in math, physics, computer science.

At MIT We had a transcript and copy of the syllabus for the two UT distance learning courses he took, but he did not get automatic credit for any of the college level math he had done other than AP calculus. He was able to get credit for multivariable calculus by taking an MIT exam during freshman orientation. He expects to get credit for differential equations the same way, but they require kids to submit a semester's worth of homework assignments before they allowed to take the exam, so he hasn't gotten around to it yet. There are other courses that he has covered and could almost certainly get credit for by taking MIT's exam (linear algebra, topology). But he has decided not to bother since they are not required for the particular math major he is going for, and he expects to have plenty of credits. MIT is fairly loose about prereqs, so he won't have to repeat anything he has already covered.

-- LoneRanger - 22 Dec 2005

-- KtmGuest - 08 Dec 2005

on the recent subject of worksheets, and why they are necessary, and what constructivist curricula do in lieu of worksheets, I'd like to scan some bingo instructions from the TERC student workbook so that you can have it available for reference on this site. Where and how? Are there copyright issues? Where should it go? In the compare/contrast section, or elsewhere?

And, Carolyn asked what I found useful as a visitor to KTM, and I can honestly say that your list of ten(?) things parents can do, should perhaps be brought to the front and right of the home page. It's as if this blog seeks to have a political effect derived from its practical effect. Keep hammering away on the practical effect. Practically, we empower individual parents by telling them again and again: you're going to have to study elementary math yourself and teach your kids comprehensively, or you're going to have to pay someone else to do it. Either way, it's just like teaching reading and writing: you can't leave it up to chance.

Thanks!

-- BeckyC - 02 Dec 2005

My son's doing Saxon Algebra Half now, 6th-grade, and his school plans to use Saxon Algebra 1 next year for 7th-grade. Do you have any thoughts about which book is better, and why?

Many thanks.

Ragnarok

-- KtmGuest - 23 Nov 2005

-- SmartestTractor - 15 Nov 2005

-- LoneRanger - 10 Nov 2005

I am leaning towards getting Singapore and supplementing with it. Some of my friends who use Saxon with their kids just have the child work every other problem. I've been having my sons do every problem, and, as I commented earlier, it takes them about an hour. I don't want them to get overwhelmed by having an hour and a half of math every day, so I guess I would have to cut out some of the practice problems in Saxon.

DanK^?, Yes, I am using timed tests for addition and subtraction, and I use multiplication fact worksheets for drill, though I don't ususually time them. We are just now moving into timed multiplication tests with Saxon.

-- DianeAustin - 02 Nov 2005

I haven't homeschooled, so I feel a little uncomfortable commenting...but only a little.

I just wanted to ask if you were testing the multiplication (and, for that matter, addition) facts with timed tests. I'm pretty sure that timed fact tests are part of the Saxon school curriculum. It seems to be a consensus opinion here at KTM that these facts must be mastered to the point of automaticity. I certainly agree, and have found any lack of automaticity to be a major hindrance as students try to move forward.

-- DanK - 02 Nov 2005

A homeschooler friend of mine once told me that many homeschoolers use both Singapore and Saxon at the same time. I'm presently using Saxon as the core supplement curriculum for my public school child, but I add Singapore problems to whatever chapter I'm on.

Singapore's word problems are better than any of the other books I've seen because they start with one and two steps and move up to 4+ steps by their level 5.

I don't know if you've seen The Well Trained Mind book, but it has an easy to follow schedule for homeschooling all subjects throughout the years of your child. You might get some ideas of how much to do from there. Since I'm an "after-schooler," as they call me, I haven't ever looked closely at the way they set up the teaching schedule, but it looks fairly thorough.

-- SusanS - 02 Nov 2005

-- DianeAustin - 02 Nov 2005

-- LoneRanger - 26 Oct 2005

As you all know, I am getting together a presentaion for the new principal of our elementary school about my 'concerns' about EM

So here is my question:

The only algorithim taught for long division is a partial quotient division method. (Also called forgiving division) There is a post which illustrates this method.

After studying this method, I have come to this conclusion: it only gives reliable and definite answers if you are dividing a whole number by a whole number.

If you divide a fraction or a number with a decimal point, the modification that you have to make is as follows:

1. Make a magnitude estimate of the quotient.

2. If there is a decimal point, ignore it. Divide the numbers.

3. Use your magnitude estimate to place the decimal point in the final answer. (EM 5th grade pg 113)

So for 7/8, you make a magnitude estimate that the answer is going to be less than 1 (right?)

Then you write the long division symbol with 8 on the outside and 7 on the inside. And now you are stuck because no matter what you multiply 8 by, it is more than 7 and you can't subtract.

Or take the problem on page 187: 300.007/5. I estimate the magnitude to be about 60. Now I divide 5 into 300007. Only I end up with a remainder of 2. Now I'm stuck.

Am I right here, or does is there a further modification out there that directs the students to add zeros onto the number and keep going?

Thanks.

This principal used to teach 5th grade so I am looking forward to asking her how she handled teaching math to students that could not multiply or divide. Also, I am interested to hear how she handled this problem.

-- AnneDwyer - 23 Oct 2005

Take a look at this.

-- LoneRanger - 22 Oct 2005

-- LoneRanger - 10 Oct 2005

-- LoneRanger - 09 Oct 2005

-- LoneRanger - 25 Sep 2005

You do make a very good point. I do think you have to be much more careful with a mathematically precocious child then your good ole' regular all-arounder. I say this because I've seen my math kid literally become depressed if too much time is spent (whether from me or his teachers) on drilling or rote. It looks different than boredom. As soon as he learns a concept (which tends to be almost immediately)he's miserable about the second time he's asked to repeat it. He does not mind, however, applying it and so I'm learning to hunt down more creative ways of getting him to "drill."

It would be easy to say that he doesn't need it because he gets it, but right before school started (he's a 5th grader going into 7th grade algebra) I had him do a word problem. Normally he shows no work and just puts down the answer (he's usually right so I don't feel I can get him on the "show your work" thing) but this time he worked out a simple 2 digit problem by pencil. He didn't move the partial products over. I know he just forgot, but I was horrified since he will be scrutinized more closely at school because of his age. Still, I just did a reminder and figured that if it happened again we'd look at practice.

My struggling child, however, has been drilled to death, and from the look of it you would think we were torturing him. However, we just started long division (he is an 8th grader, mind you) and he totally got it and did all parts of it with ease. He gave me the most astonished look. "Is that right?" he kept saying. It was. He kept doing it and it kept being right. To the LD child, division is the ultimate betrayal. To have to manage that minefield is just painful to many of them. Precision errors a occur 10 times more with them than with other kids, so this was pretty amazing to him. It may seem silly, but I have more pride in that moment than just about anything either child has done.

So, I think each child is different for sure and you do have to be careful not to rob your child of the love of his gift. Unfortunately, with certain schools, they might be actually robbing them of the ability to even use that gift.

-- SusanS - 08 Sep 2005

when i was the second-best in a class
of very bright 6th grade students i deliberately
played "dumb" and performed very slowly
when confronted with "work as many problems
as you can in the allotted time"-style assessments.

why get beat by people who, though i knew 'em
(and even, like as not, loved 'em), i took
for granted -- and for good reasons -- weren't
in any sense my peers in (what i later learned
to call) mathematical maturity?

now. maybe timed drills are a good thing overall.
there i was, a couple standard deviations
above the mean ... admittedly not *obviously*
useful or interesting anecdotal evidence
if the question is "how are we to treat *most*
students" ... indeed, by my own lights,
i should'vee probably keep my mouth shut, since
it has long since occured to me that too much
importance is given (in fora like this) to
the exeptional (in either direction)
at the expense of the average.

what am i getting at precisely?
as usual, your guess is as good as mine.
my guess? okay, this: please don't become the problem:
kids know (as it were) intinctively when
we're trying to understand 'em and when
we're just flat-out trying to push 'em around.
they come to us equipped by nature with mountains
of trust and good faith. mess with these
assets if you feel you must -- but understand
in the process that you can never have 'em back
(after you've betrayed 'em )at any price.

i do quite realise -- it sounds like i'm getting
all "fuzzy" on you. so be it.
the kids are alright.

-- KtmGuest - 08 Sep 2005

You are going to give your friend 3 shells. A set of 3 shells. The question is how many such sets there are.

In every set you choose, there has to be a scallop shell. There are three choices for this. Moreover, and this is the important point, whichever choice you make for scallop shell well not affect in any way which choices you make for the other shells. In mathematical parlance, the choices are independent. That means that, to get the total number of choices, I multiply.

That may be the sticking point, so let me examine this a bit. Let's simplify the problem. If there were only one type of shells, scallop, then there would be 3 choices of things you could give your friend, end of problem.

If there were two types of shells, scallop and olive, then the problem can be viewed as: first pick a scallop (3 choices), then pick an olive shell (2 choices). You can write out all the choices quite easily in a little box with 3 rows (one for each scallop) and 2 columns (one for each olive). Which choice you make for row has no effect whatsoever on the choice of column, and vice versa. Picture: | s1 o1 | s1 o2 |

where s1, s2, s3 are the three scallop shells and o1, o2 are the two olive shells. Since the box has size 2 x 3, there are 6 total choices.

Now, to make a complete set of three, we can envision the process as: 1) first pick a scallop, 2) pick and olive, 3) pick a conch. Since no choice affects any other, any of the 6 choices shown above could be used with any of the 3 conches, so the total number of choices is 6 x 3 = 18.

Sometimes this is visualized as a "decision tree": Begin | / | / | / | Choose scallop: s1 s2 s3 / \ / \ / / | | | | | Choose olive: o1 o2 o1 o2 o1 o2 /|\ /|\ /|\ /|\ /|\ /| / | \ / \ \ ... / | | | | \ etc. Conch: c1 c2 c3 c1 c2 c3

By going down the tree, every possible collection of shells is counted once and only once. There are 18 total branches, so the answer is 18.

-- BernieJohnston - 07 Sep 2005

--Brenda

-- KtmGuest - 06 Sep 2005

In your post about math drills, it seems that you have raised two different issues. So I will tackle one at a time.

1. Speed drills. IMO, speed drills are used to make sure that your child has actually memorized the facts and is not still counting on her fingers or in her head. If your daughter can orally answer 30 problems in one minute, then she has memorized those math facts. She is only 6. So if her motor skills are too slow to do the drill but she knows the facts, then don't stress her out by making her write them.

2. Children need to know one digit addition and subtraction within 18 (i.e. from 0+1 up to 9+9). Everything else follows from these facts. Some kids need a lot of practice at each level. Some children just fly right through each level. I would start with a sheet that has 30 problems. If you have a problem generator, make them all easy (within 10). If in one or two tries, she gets them all, then move her up to the next level. When you have finished addition, tackle subtraction.

-- AnneDwyer - 06 Sep 2005

She's just so slow in her motor skills. I keep telling her that if she would just write a single line for the number "1" instead of adding the serifs, she'd be a speed demon. For example, last week I gave her 90 seconds to do 20 addition problems (sums up to 10). She finished 12 of them (got only one wrong). She can't seem to do 20 in less than 2:25.

I've heard that in Saxon 2 the drills are 25 facts in 1 minute or 100 facts in 5 minutes, but at what level of accuracy can you move on?

I try to cut her some slack, since she's only six, but she understands the concepts and her memory in other areas is usually good. I'm getting discouraged because I'm not sure how much should be automatic for her at this point, and I suspect that my approach to tackling the fact families has been haphazard enough to cause her problems. I want our math fact drill time to be much more productive than it seems to be. It feels like we're going in circles. Should it feel this difficult?

Some people advocate teaching the doubles first (3+3, 4+4, etc.); Math-It teaches the 9+X facts first ("subtract one from the other number and say 'teen'"), and our Kumon workbook starts with X+1. I don't know which is the most effective, but doing all three can't be wise. (Duh.)

At this point, I'm going to have her finish the Kumon workbook, then possibly move on to Calculadders. If that doesn't help, I may have to supplement with Rod & Staff. But in my shoes, what would you do?

TIA for any advice you have.

--Brenda

-- KtmGuest - 06 Sep 2005

Can someone give me a quick definition, history, and explanation of "new math"? I thought I understood what it was, and the things I've read here recently confirm that. However, I'm taking "Math for Elementary Teachers" right now, and my teacher's definition seems to be completely different. Can someone enlighten me?

-- AndyJoy - 29 Aug 2005

test

-- CarolynJohnston - 28 Jul 2005

test again

-- CarolynJohnston - 28 Jul 2005

-- CarolynJohnston - 28 Jul 2005

Comments

Think of a good story problem for the math sentence 2 and 1/4 divided by 4/5. (two and a quarter divided by four fifths?)

People could post interesting problems they have found, or could post problems which seem to give particular trouble to their kids.

-- KtmGuest - 14 Jul 2005

Anybody else?

Catherine

-- LoneRanger - 11 Jul 2005

• Constructivist curricula page (we need a sidebar page listing names & links of all the various NSF-funded curricula (I don't want to put them on 'Recommended Reading')

• Constructivist curricula page (we need a page listing names & links of all the various NSF-funded curricula (I don't want to put them on 'Recommended Reading')

• learning disabilities & math ed page

• 'letters to the editor' page: page filled with letters people can use

• (request from me): letters of recommendation page--I can just set this up. (this goes to the use positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement rule in behaviorism)

• how to accelerate your child in math page (??)

• how to supplement and/or complement fuzzy math curriculum at home; or: how to protect your child from the ravages of fuzzy math; or: something more positive....how to get the best out of fuzzy math while avoiding the worst

-- BarryGarelick - 06 Jul 2005

Are you of the opinion that Mathematically Correct is reliable in their assessment of most texts?

-- InterestedTeacher - 05 Jul 2005

-- BarryGarelick - 05 Jul 2005

This text is used in 6th grade at our private, Christian School. After many years of using Saxon, "they" changed to this text. I'm guessing that change was made because the 7th and 8th grades also use Passport (to Alg. and Geom).

I teach 5th and use Saxon 6/5. So students are going from Saxon and from a very teacher directed classroom to this text. It's quite a shock to them. You really should hear from the parents.

I realize this was more information than you asked for.

-- InterestedTeacher - 05 Jul 2005

Glad to help.

-- BarryGarelick - 05 Jul 2005

I had seen your post earlier requesting ill-posed questions. Glad to help!

-- InterestedTeacher - 05 Jul 2005

Stated another way, it's like you have three boxes A, B, and C. Box A contains 3 red balls, Box B, 2 blue balls and Box C, 3 green balls. Drawing one ball from each box, what is the probability of getting a combination of a red, blue and green ball? Well, 100%.

So you're looking at the shell problem the same way. There's only one combination you can have: Scallop, Olive and Conch.

If the shells are distinguishable, so you have, say, a red scallop, green scallop and yellow scallop, and the other shells are similarly distinguished, then you would count things individually. You would then have 3 possibilities of a scallop x 2 possibilities for an olive x 3 possibilites of a conch for a total of 18 combinations.

Thank you for this. I collect ill-posed problems.

-- BarryGarelick - 04 Jul 2005

I'm reading through Passport to Mathematics again. Can anyone help me with this question?

SHELLS You are giving your friend part of your shell collection. You have 3 scallop shells, 2 olive shells, and 3 conch shells. If you choose one of each type, how many different combinations of shells could you give your friend? The answer is 18. I'm at a loss. What am I not understanding?

-- CarolynMorgan - 04 Jul 2005

-- CarolynJohnston - 23 Jun 2005

Another test.

-- CarolynJohnston - 23 Jun 2005

Aye, and this is another test.

-- CarolynJohnston - 23 Jun 2005

This is nowt but a test.

-- CarolynJohnston - 23 Jun 2005

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