I've been getting the vibe that AP Calculus is the big kahuna.

So I'm thinking....maybe if Christopher just takes that (assuming he can stand the sight of a math book by the time he's a junior in high school) it will do.

He'll probably want to take A.P. history no matter how crazy it is.

So maybe those 3, and after that he can spend his time taking courses where he actually learns something he can remember two months later.

Of course, that's assuming he can 'get accepted' into the courses in the first place.

Another mysteriously-never-mentioned School Policy to look into.

Back to main page.

Comments

I'd be appalled too, and would demand my 1982 model gas guzzler, except I can't remember passing (or taking) a fifth, just:

• English
• Latin
• Calculus AB
• Chemistry

And that was over the course of two years.

We didn't have AP physics (or I would have taken it), and I dropped down to regular history from the AP history program.

Four AP courses per year in a demanding private high school was too much. Three was manageable. (Latin and English were AP for 11th and 12th grade, but I took only one exam for each.)

This is appalling:

more than 3,000 students took seven or more A.P. exams last year.

Maybe they took seven AP exams, but there's no way that those students could take seven AP courses in one year and do well in them, if they're doing them properly. We had tons and tons of reading to do, and tons and tons of papers to write.

Also from this article is this misleading statement:

the number of Latino students [taking AP exams] has nearly quadrupled, to 151,000

This is misleading, because according to last January's AP exam article:

Critics say that although more Latinos are participating in the AP program, many of them are taking just one course during high school. And for many Latinos, the one AP course they take is often the Spanish language course. Without the Spanish course, participation would be much lower and the rate of success on the exam would drop, AP officials concede.

-- GoogleMaster - 09 Jan 2006

The whole thing just sounds awful.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

What do you think about the amount of work you did for your courses?

Was there good reason to do it?

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

When I was in high school the AP US History course was a joke. If someone with my appallingly shallow knowledge of US History could get a 3 on the AP exam (in 1990), then it couldn't have been testing very much. Pretty much I read the assigned chapter(s) of National Experience each Sunday night throughout the school year to be ready for the tests we took each Monday in History class. And I looked at the released question bank of old AP essay questions and rubrics and made a point to know a little bit about the most commonly asked topics and what the question-graders valued. (I used a parallel strategy to get a 4 on European History.)

I think I took a total of eight AP courses in high school (over three years), but I only took exams in six of them because Dartmouth didn't give any credit for the other two (so there was no point taking those exams).

In terms of AP math, I really like the BC Calculus (not so keen on the diff eq part of it, but that's a quibble), and I'm constantly irritated by AB Calculus. The AB covers more than one but less than two semesters of calculus, and they leave out some things (like polar coordinates) along the way. I don't know anything about AP Statistics, but on principle I'm in favor of more people knowing more about statistics.

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 09 Jan 2006

You went to Dartmouth?

So did I!

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

In terms of AP math, I really like the BC Calculus (not so keen on the diff eq part of it, but that's a quibble), and I'm constantly irritated by AB Calculus. The AB covers more than one but less than two semesters of calculus, and they leave out some things (like polar coordinates) along the way. I don't know anything about AP Statistics, but on principle I'm in favor of more people knowing more about statistics.

well....this is my thinking

I'm sure Ed's right about the history courses.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

Class of 1995.

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 10 Jan 2006

What do you think about the amount of work you did for your courses?

Was there good reason to do it?

Latin III and IV AP

This being a small school, the classes for Latin III, IV, V were combined, and there was no non-AP Latin class past Latin II (grammar). The school had a rotating curriculum for AP Latin for which the coursework involved reading Horace's Odes, the (somewhat raunchy) poems of Catullus, and Virgil's Aeneid, all in Latin, one author per year. There were two versions of the AP exam: one covered both Horace and Catullus, and one covered Virgil. In class, we would read the poem, and perform analysis of tone, meaning, etc. just as you would in an English lit class. The only aspect of "teaching to the AP test" was in the choice of authors offered by the school and in the format of the exams: snippets of poems with analysis essay questions about each.

English 11 and 12 AP

We used the Norton Anthology of American Literature for 11 AP, and the Norton Anthology of English Literature for 12 AP -- and none of those "volume 2A, 2B" junk; we had volume 1 and volume 2 of each in hardback. I think the four volumes are about 10,000 pages total. Papers were required on additional books outside the anthologies. Emphasis was on critical thinking and writing, so all of this reading and writing was necessary. I think we had to write about five five-page papers and one 15-page term paper (with outline, index cards, footnotes, proper attribution, etc.) in each course.

Chemistry AP

We used the same college text as for regular Chemistry, but we went further into it. It was a Wiley text, and it's sitting on my shelf at home, but I don't remember whether it was Dickson or Olmsted. We did a lot of lab work and learned to keep lab composition books (so you can't insert pages) in passive voice. We also did tons of problem sets.

Calculus

Not much theory, but lots of problem sets. My school didn't offer BC Calculus, so it was pretty boring and I hardly ever had homework (because I did it in class and/or worked ahead). We did a lot of "student volunteers to work out problem on board" activities. The text we used in high school was Thomas's Elements of Calculus, which is not the full Thomas but an abridged version. I realized how much theory we didn't have when I got to engineering school, and, having AP'ed out of regular calc I, took honors calc I for fun. We used Spivak in honors calc.

I think that there was good reason for doing most of the things we did. The reading and writing built up our skills in language and critical thinking. The science and math problems sets were needed for practice to mastery (or not). The lab work was a good introduction to college science labs. I was not overwhelmed when I entered college, and never felt unprepared enough to have to drop a course or seek extra help from the professors.

-- GoogleMaster - 10 Jan 2006

At least 2 schools that I've had contact with (the private college I attended, and the public university I work at) DO have 2 semesters of U.S. History courses that cover pre-Columbian Societies through The United States in the Post-Cold War World. These are 100 level survey classes that fulfill the college/university's general ed requirements. A high school AP class may very well cover enough to be equivalent.

Actually, at my public university, you don't have to take ANY specific history class to earn a non-history or non-teaching degree. You might take a general ed class that has a historical element, but no traditional U.S. or world history class is required.

At my private college, you had to take U.S. History 1 OR 2, World History 1 & 2, and U.S. Government.

I personally took U.S. History Since 1877, U.S. Government, and then passed CLEP tests for both world histories during my senior year. The last world history class I'd had was in 10th grade. I prepared for the tests by borrowing the class textbooks and reading them for 1-2 hrs a day for a week (1 week for each class/test). I passed the CLEP tests with flying colors (the highest scores our testing center employee had ever seen). I taught (myself) to the test and it worked. I studied the captions and learned a few sentances worth of facts for the major figures.

At my private school, an English AP or CLEP didn't exempt you from English--it just let you skip to a higher level elective. For example, I skipped Enlglish comp. 101 and took Studies in Jane Austen. This worked wonderfully for me, as I could already write a cohesive long paper, but I don't think my multiple-choice CLEP test was really an accurate measure of this ability.

At the public school I work at, an ACT/SAT score of 31/700 exempts you from Engl comp. and depending on your major, you might not take another English class.

As far as Calculus AB goes, we recommend to our incoming freshman that they take Calc 1 in college anyway if they earn a 3 or a 4. We have had trouble with such students skippping to Calc 2, flunking, then starting over in Calc 1 and thus being behind a semester. If our engineering students come to us ready for Calc 1 (determined by ACT/SAT math scores of 29/650 or an AP exam), they're right on track, so I advise them not to rush it and make sure they have the necessary math foundation to succeed.

-- AndyJoy - 10 Jan 2006

Since I attended a private school of 22 (7-12) and was dual-enrolled in public school during my jr. and senior years, my only AP courses (at the public school) were:

AP Chemistry: A big joke and waste of time. The 30-year veteran Chem teacher retired at the end of the year I took regular Chem. The new AP Chem teacher (promoted from teaching Ag classes) wasn't qualified to teach regular chem, let alone AP chem. We learned more in the 2 weeks that we had a student teacher than during the rest of the year. Only about 5 of 30 students took the AP exam. I didn't, because I didn't feel like I knew enough, but looking back, I think I could have worked my way through it with my strong regular chem background.

Calculus AB: My class had 8 girls, 8 guys. 4 of each took the exam, which was not required. I earned a 3, but think I would have earned a 5 if I'd had a graphing calculator (I learned the day before the test that a portion of the test was physically impossible to solve without one, so I just calculated as much as I could with a trig calculator). At the beginning of the semester, one boy and I asked our teacher if a graphing calculator was really necessary for the class, as they were too expensive. He said not really, and that we'd learn calculus better without one, so we didn't buy them. Unfortunately, this was our teacher's first year teaching, so he didn't know that graphing calculators were necessary for the exam. This boy and I had the highest grades in the class and were constantly asked for help to punch things into calculators by our classmates, who often had NO idea what the calculator was doing for them. However, even though I was supposedly the "best" student in the class, I would have retaken Calc 1 at college (had my major required it.) I don't think my AP calc course was rigorous enough to replace college calc.

-- AndyJoy - 10 Jan 2006

If they're requiring graphing calculators now, they must have changed the Calc AB exam at some time during the past 25 years. Most of us back then had the [TI-30 or some other standard trig calculator.

And the SAT (now SAT I) didn't allow calculators at all. I don't remember whether the Math Achievement Test (now SAT II) did.

Do you happen to remember the nature of the question that required a graphing calculator?

-- GoogleMaster - 10 Jan 2006

I took a total of 5 AP courses at the small private Catholic high school in St Louis I attended (French, Amer History, Western Civ, American Lit, and British Lit). My high school was part of a program where you could earn advance college credit with a grade of C in the course; you didn't have to take the exam. The credit was accepted at local or regional colleges. (I got my BA from St Louis University, a jesuit school)

I took the AP exams in the history and lit courses.

Though I really don't remember much about the exams, I really don't recall doing a ton of memorization. The lit teachers and Amer History teachers were the ones who really taught me how to write--I think that's what I gained from those courses. They were a lot of work, but I was a real grind in high school anyway.

I ended up finishing by BA in 3 years because I came in with 20 hours credit.

Unfortunately, I couldn't take the Calc exam. I had transferred from another school before my Junior year. I had a real strong Math background but was not allowed to take Pre-Calc and then Calc leading up to the AP exam because I transferred. Instead they made me take Algebra 2 and then PreCalc^?. I had to wait until college.

But this expansion of AP along with the IB stuff seems out of control. My sister was commenting that one of their high schools down in Pinellas Cnty, FL offers IB at the expense of basically ignoring all the other students who don't do the IB program.

-- KathyIggy - 10 Jan 2006

"New York Times articles stay online for only a week, so be sure to read Sunday's article on AP courses in the next few days if you're interested."

You can create a permanent NYT link with this:

http://nytimes.blogspace.com/genlink

Ain't the NYT generous?

-- CharlesH - 10 Jan 2006

AP courses are good in that there are some independent/outside sources defining the content and goals. It forces high schools to be somewhat honest. This is unlike K-8 that has no outside influence over their fuzzy ideas. Not even the local high school has any influence. This leads to what I call the curriculum gap or jump between eighth and ninth grades.

I went to high school before AP courses. I had Calculus as a senior, but there was no advanced credit and I had to take Calculus as a freshman in college. Actually, it was good to go over the material again and it didn't prevent me from taking all of the math and engineering courses I wanted. That is an important point. There is plenty of opportunity to take courses in college.

So I have a mixed reaction to this AP "problem".

"....many of the elite schools that pioneered A.P. are losing enthusiasm, looking for ways to cut their students loose from curriculums that can cram in too much material at the expense of conceptual understanding and from the pressure to amass as many A.P. grades on their transcripts as possible. A few have abolished A.P. programs altogether, and many have limited students to taking three a year, fearing burnout and bad scores."

... at the expense of conceptual understanding ..."

Red flags are flying everywhere. I would be very suspicious of a high school that got rid of their AP courses. If colleges want to deemphasize the value of AP courses, I think that is fine. Apparently, too many kids feel under great pressure to take a lot of AP courses. That is a separate issue from the content of the courses.

"We've been put off for quite a while about the idea of teaching to the test, which is what a lot of A.P.'s are," says Lynn Krahling, guidance director of the Queen Anne's School in Upper Marlboro, Md. "We're convinced, as an educational institution, that they're not as valuable as what we could be offering on our own."

You mean that they wouldn't teach to any test? Even their own? It's one thing to disagree with the content and expectations of a course, but quite another to change the argument to one about tests.

Just because some (many?) students and parents "game" the AP system, doesn't mean that you get rid of AP courses.

"I'd bet the ranch half that work is pointless."

So, you are saying that half the content and expectations of the courses are pointless. It could be, but what was it like before the AP tests? The problem is that I don't trust the K-12 educational system. Given half a chance, all high school math classes could be an extension of the spiraling algebra problem. (Pre-Algebra, Algebra, Advanced Algebra, Algebra II, Algebra III, ...)

AP history and other AP courses might be different, I don't know. In math, I think that the outside AP Calculus specification is the only thing keeping the fuzzy wolves at bay.

"In our physics A.P., we had a test where our whole class did badly,"

A high school cannot just add in an AP course without modifying the curriculum up to that point. If you don't like the content and expectations of an AP course, that is one thing, but you need to bring the students up to speed. You have to show that the Geometry course leads to the Algebra II course, to the Trig course, to the AP Calc course. If lots of kids are having trouble with the course, then that is a problem with the school.

"All things being equal, if we had a kid with an 88 average and three A.P.'s, versus a kid with a 90 average and no A.P.'s, we'd probably take the one with the A.P.'s - but make it an 85 average and three A.P.'s and I'm stumped,"

A friend of mine came to the determination (after many college tours with his daughter), that it was better to get higher grades on non-AP courses than lower grades on AP courses. He found that some colleges do an initial filter of applications based on SAT scores and UN-weighted high school grade point averages. Some applications apparently never get past the filter to the human judgment phase.

It would be nice to see the exact process and formulas (and fuzzy considerations) used by different colleges. This, however, is a separate issue from whether any given AP course specification is good or bad.

"I've been getting the vibe that AP Calculus is the big kahuna."

I would say that AP calculus is a lot different than AP anything else. A college knows more about your capabilities than if you took AP History. At our high school, if you took away the AP Calc course, then the whole college prep math track would go fuzzy.

-- SteveH - 10 Jan 2006

Oh, I was way wrong on my recollection of my AP Chem text. It was not Wiley after all, but Academic Press.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0120728508 is the one I had. Bailar, Moeller, et al. There doesn't seem to be a current version.

-- GoogleMaster - 10 Jan 2006

keeping the fuzzy wolves at bay

I love it! I believe it. He (or She) who controls the test...

AP Calculus is like a brick wall located in the high schools.

-- BeckyC - 10 Jan 2006

Becky

AP Calculus is like a brick wall located in the high schools.


I'm gonna remember that one!

Of course, we've managed to hit a brick wall in 6th grade.

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006

Wit and Wisdom

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006

It looks more and more that the purpose of a highschool education is to compile the necessary set of status points required to gain admission into the desired university of choice. Don't worry so much about teaching the material, the university will take care of that, rather present all the material and check off the box. If the box includes an A.P. moniker bonus points all around.

-- SeanPrice - 10 Jan 2006

Hi, Sean!

It looks more and more that the purpose of a highschool education is to compile the necessary set of status points required to gain admission into the desired university of choice.

Well, that's certainly the way it looks to me.....though I should reserve judgment.

Still, the constant expansion of AP 'offerings' means we're crowding out any concept of a coherent curriculum.

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006

Charles

Wow!

Thanks!

btw, I think I was going to send you some Saxon pages.....WHAT WERE THEY???

I've forgotten —

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006

I was part of the "smart" crowd at my high school, in an atypical year (2 sections each of AP English, AP US History, AP Calculus, instead of 1 each). The English and US History classes were mostly useful for writing practice (papers, essay tests, etc.) and critical thinking, rather than specific facts about history or literature.

Calculus was not directly aimed at the AP test, but was actually the first two quarters of "standard" college calculus taught as two semester classes.

In addition to those, I also took the AP tests for Chemistry and Physics C (E&M) despite not having taken an official AP class (not offered at my high school). I got a 4 on the Chem despite (due to?) not memorizing all the nomenclature bits but having a firm grasp of the basics, and a 4 on the Physics after 6 weeks of tutoring in E&M from one of my dad's friends on top of the basic physics class (mostly Newtonian mechanics).

Turns out that my college (Harvey Mudd) didn't actually give credit for AP tests and instead gave its own placement tests in math, chemistry, and physics; and required a fixed number of humanities credits (including Freshman Rhetoric for everyone), so the AP tests themselves didn't do anything for me other than provide a goal to shoot for. Well, they might have influenced the admissions board some, but maybe not.

Like AndyJoy, I don't feel my AP classes were anywhere close to equivalent to real college classes, but the classes did give me a better grounding in "college-style" learning than I would have gotten otherwise, without being overwhelming like some described in the various recent articles. Heh. I didn't think I was old enough to reminisce about "the good old days".

-- AndyLange - 12 Jan 2006

The value of AP classes lies in the fact that a respected outside agency coordinates the curriculum for the class, and, more importantly, the pipeline for pre-skills to succeed in that class.

AP Calculus is a good example. If a school wants its students to pass calculus it not only has to have a good calculus class but also a good algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and pre-calc class. And, if anyone but the math-brains are going to succeed in AP Calc they're also going to have a good elementary math program as well. Most schools fail this last requirement due to substandard elementary and middle school math curricula.

-- KDeRosa - 12 Jan 2006

Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread, but the discussion about AP courses and Physics motivated my comment. Our child, who a junior in high school, is pretty intelligent and is highly motivated to get good grades. She also has high anxiety and ambiguity can be a disaster. Her anxiety and stress skyrockets in courses where there is a high degree of ambiguity in the teaching methods used by the teacher. We have noticed this the most in some (but not all) of her Science and Math courses. Some of the teachers seem to push the envelope in Honors and AP courses in ways that don't seem developmentally or cognitively appropriate. Other kids suffer (and I'm quite convinced that this is why some students just turn off), but our child suffers immensely, because she continues to be motivated to do well.

-- KtmGuest - 12 Jan 2006

"Her anxiety and stress skyrockets in courses where there is a high degree of ambiguity in the teaching methods used by the teacher."

I have had a number of college courses and read a number of technical books where I have felt stupid. (I remember one course where the prof was talking about the Dirac Delta Function. He picked up a chair and dropped it. Something about random vibrations. Obviously, I remember the chair and little else.) Over time, however, I developed more confidence in my ability to learn. When this happens now, I am left with the feeling that there has to be an easier way, book, or method of understanding the material. Sometimes I find it. Sometimes I don't.

I know this doesn't help your daughter, but this problem won't go away in college. All I can say is to try and find some other source (book, other teacher or professional, or web resource) that can help. Often, if you find the right help, it's like magic. Try to stay goal oriented, even if it means just being able to get the homework done and pass the tests. Don't expect true enlightenment from all of your courses.

-- SteveH - 12 Jan 2006

We have noticed this the most in some (but not all) of her Science and Math courses. Some of the teachers seem to push the envelope in Honors and AP courses in ways that don't seem developmentally or cognitively appropriate. Other kids suffer (and I'm quite convinced that this is why some students just turn off), but our child suffers immensely, because she continues to be motivated to do well.

Hi!

Can you be a little more specific?

What kinds of ambiguity are you seeing?

Is this a 'multiple solution math'-type situation?

Is the teacher requiring lots of discovery?

Is it something else?

-- CatherineJohnson - 12 Jan 2006

I have concerns about this with Christopher, because he's on the anxious side.

This is something we're always 'working' on, from way back when.

The whole bullying situation in 2nd grade was about his fearfulness; that's why he was bullied, and not some other kid.

One thing I do, which I saw my mother do with my youngest sister, is simply to always downplay fear in basically all circumstances. (Well, I DO encourage him to be scared of the Big Rides at Rye Playland....)

My sister was very anxious, timid, and fearful, to the point of having tics, not sleeping, etc. When she was just a little kid, in elementary school, she was staying up half the night to 'study.' (What could she possibly have been doing??? There wasn't anything to study!)

My mom spent my sister's ENTIRE childhood teaching her not to be scared.

None of us could ever go into the post office; we'd park outside and my sister would have to go in alone!

She did it, too.

When she was a junior in college she traveled all over Europe alone.

She's never stopped being an anxious person, but she definitely learned to cope with college & take & succeed in the courses she wanted to take.

-- CatherineJohnson - 12 Jan 2006

With Christopher and school, I just tell him, frequently, don't worry about it.

Do your best, then forget it.

I know that sounds like a total cliche, but I say it like I mean it. (I have no idea whether this would work with your daughter, of course.)

I'm also quite happy to tell him his teachers are wrong if I think they are. I don't undermine them, but I don't allow them to become Looming Authorities in his mind, either.

-- CatherineJohnson - 12 Jan 2006

At this stage of the game we've also begun to talk about school as a 'game' (we don't use that word, but that's the idea) that has to be played a certain way.

We've started telling him, FREQUENTLY, that teachers GRADE ON HANDWRITING WHETHER THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO OR NOT.

I've told him that grading writing is subjective, and you can write a good paper but still get a bad grade on it.

I've told him — already — that ultimately he's going to be the judge of whether his work is good.

So he better make it good!

-- CatherineJohnson - 12 Jan 2006

"At this stage of the game we've also begun to talk about school as a 'game' (we don't use that word, but that's the idea) that has to be played a certain way. "

My parents did the very same thing..."you just have to play their game" my dad often said. It was a good lesson to learn throughout jr high and high school, and an early way to learn things are not always fair.

-- KathyIggy - 12 Jan 2006

Her Honors Physics class has presented the most challenges. The kids are, for the most part, pretty highly motivated to succeed, and the teacher, no doubt, means well. Simply put, he doesn't teach to mastery, but tests them as if they have it. Then, he realizes that maybe they don't have it, and rewrites the test. However, he scolds them for not studying enough and tells them that next time, he may not have a retake option. Rather then have them take incremental steps, his questions require them to make big leaps, and they have just barely gotten comfortable with the basic concepts. There appears to be a significant gap between what is being taught and what is being tested.

Because our kid has high anxiety (which is a complicating factor and one that we deal with separately), and wants to do well, she spends a tremendous amount of time and effort trying to learn the material to mastery so that she can do well on the test the first time around. And typically, she gets the highest grade, even though it doesn't come easily to her. And, to be fair, the teacher does spend a lot of time after school helping the kids. However, keep in mind that these are high-performing kids!

Her biggest frustrtion, and therefore ours, is that he has assigned several "projects" as all-or-nothing. Either your project works, or it doesn't. The first time he did this, he made it worth 25 points, and it was the first assignment of the quarter. Several parents complained, and he stopped doing it. Then, he started again, but reduced the point value to 5 points.

Our daughter is a language whiz, but math and science concepts are harder for her to grasp. She loved Algebra but had to work very hard to get an A in Honors Geometry. She could do the proofs, but the conceptual part was a struggle. She received a very solid foundation in K-5 with basic math skills and this has helped her immensely.

-- KtmGuest - 12 Jan 2006

Kathy

My parents did the very same thing..."you just have to play their game" my dad often said. It was a good lesson to learn throughout jr high and high school, and an early way to learn things are not always fair.

I'm glad to hear it.

My problem with Christopher is always that he's the only typical child I've raised, so I'm getting all my experience with him.

I never quite know when it's right to shift the 'narrative.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 13 Jan 2006

I will say, though, (and I've said this before) that I deliberately 'took ownership' of math last year and of Writing this year.....just because I knew what a terrible time kids were having.

I decided that if the courses are set up to have kids sobbing over their homework at night, we weren't going to be granting the school Total Authority.

I'm reading through Engelmann's article on Mastery, which is incredible, and when I compare it to what goes on here.....boy.

The gap is wide.

I've mentioned that a mom at the Parent Revolution Math Meeting last year asked, her voice quivering, 'What are you going to do to respair these kids' self-esteem.'

The Chair of the department said, 'Why are your children so sensitive?'

Gosh.

I guess daily failure WHEN YOU'RE ELEVEN is something a person ought to just take in stride.

-- CatherineJohnson - 13 Jan 2006

I think I mentioned Engelmann's Teaching To Mastery^? (pdf file) article....

-- CatherineJohnson - 13 Jan 2006