Comments

On the reading test, the students with an IQ over 130 are possibly flat-lining - they simply can't get more than 100% and will probably always make some silly mistakes.

What is interesting is that the other IQ groups don't show continual gains on the test scores, except for the lowest IQ group.

Though depending on the numbers of kids involved this may be just random fluctations in the data.

The maths one is very interesting in that it doesn't show any acceleration in results for the highest IQ group. Of course it's only over 3 observations, but still it's surprising.

-- TracyW - 26 Jan 2006

On the 'responsibility' thing - I think kids need to learn how to be responsible for their own learning, and how to make themselves work hard, and etc.

But I also think those skills should be taught by the schools. So kids shouldn't be left to founder, but taught how to teach themselves.

So when a teacher says "I want the kids to learn how to learn" or "Kids should work in groups so they learn interpersonal skills" then they should have some plan to explicitly teach "learning how to learn" and "interpersonal skills" to those kids who don't work them out automatically.

In business I've done a few courses on interpersonal skills, and these generally involve being told how to do something, on quite an explicit level, and then given practice in how to do it.

For example, when my mum teaches people how to handle a tough meeting with a lot of criticism, she doesn't just put people into a tough meeting and throw insults at them. Instead she tells the student how to handle harsh comments:

• Reflect - repeat what the person has said back to them to make sure you have understood it clearly.
• Respect - say something that indicates you think their view is reasonable. E.g. "Many other people have raised the same concerns."
• Respond - and then you have the actual response.

-- TracyW - 26 Jan 2006

Tracy

But I also think those skills should be taught by the schools. So kids shouldn't be left to founder, but taught how to teach themselves.

you know, it's probably as simple as that

Stevenson & Stigler say the Japanese teachers spend quite a lot of time teaching the kids EXACTLY how to go through their day, how to organize their belongings inside their desks, how to transition smoothly from one activity to another, etc.

Then they practice the kids on these skills.

Their figures on the amount of wasted time in U.S. classrooms compared to Japanese classrooms were shocking

That's another huge time-eater in discovery learning; the kids are constantly having to transition activities, juggle manipulatives, get them out, 'manipulative' them, then clean up & put them away — and they have to do this without ever having been taught how to do it efficiently

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

In business I've done a few courses on interpersonal skills, and these generally involve being told how to do something, on quite an explicit level, and then given practice in how to do it.

wow!

I love that process your mom teaches — of course it makes sense to teach it directly, then rehearse it.....it's really kind of staggering that, out in the real world, when real adults want to learn something, they NEVER hire a person who will structure a discovery situation for them

At least, I haven't heard of people doing this, apart from 'personal discovery' situations....

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

The maths one is very interesting in that it doesn't show any acceleration in results for the highest IQ group. Of course it's only over 3 observations, but still it's surprising.

I felt the same way.....that high group ought to be gaining more than one year in one year.....shouldn't they??

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Of course, in America, in public schools, even the brightest kids don't seem to be gaining a year in a year.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

"I felt the same way.....that high group ought to be gaining more than one year in one year.....shouldn't they?"

That depends on what the graph is measuring. It may be that the graph is functionally logarithmic in its vertical scale. (This could be caused by the scoring rubric or by a wide variation in question difficulty, for instance.)

Without quite a bit more data, I don't think your question is answerable.

-- DougSundseth - 27 Jan 2006

...out in the real world, when real adults want to learn something, they NEVER hire a person who will structure a discovery situation for them

Well, hardly ever.

I didn't do the course I'm going to describe, but a workmate did.

It was a several week long course on management. And the instructor divided them into three groups with the task to make a bird cage.
The first group got a kit for making a bird cage with a fulll set of instructions.
The second group got a set of supplies that included everything necessary to make a bird cage, but no instructions.
The third group got half of a kit to make a bird cage, and an incomplete list of instructions.

By the end of the experiment:
The first group has made a wonderful bird cage and feels okay about each other.
The second group has made an adequate bird cage and are feeling very proud about themselves.
The third group has made a bird cage that may be capable of delaying a blind bird with a broken wing from leaving for several seconds, and may, after instensive therapy, be able to sit at opposite ends of an empty football stadium without fighting.

This teachs the importance of giving your team the right information and support.

-- TracyW - 27 Jan 2006

That depends on what the graph is measuring. It may be that the graph is functionally logarithmic in its vertical scale. (This could be caused by the scoring rubric or by a wide variation in question difficulty, for instance.)

I have GOT to learn statistics and soon.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

This teachs the importance of giving your team the right information and support.

Right!

That's exactly the kind of 'social learning' course I had in mind (not quite, but almost....)

All of those lifesprings, est, etc. type things.

The Catholic Church has several marriage courses that I would call, probably, 'discovery, that are supposed to be fantastic.

(Actually, that's probably wrong. Couples are given assignments, and they have to go to their room and do the assignments.....it's not precisely discovery. But otoh, it's not Direct Instruction precisely either....)

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

What I'd like to know is: WHAT IS A 'NORMAL' AMOUNT OF LEARNING IN ONE YEAR'S TIME?

Does anyone know?

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

After doing KUMON for awhile, and reading some of Engelmann (also Wickelgren, of course) I realize I've always just taken-for-granted the 'normal' rate of learning we have here, with spiraling curricula.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

I'm thinking about getting this book:

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

I think I need it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

And yet, somehow, I'm in the position of arguing 'against' Christopher being responsible.

I don't think kids should be responsible for material they haven't been effectively taught.

That includes being responsible for organizatinal skills they haven't been taught.

You Japanese example is very apt.

In Jack's Catholic school one thing my wife Janet noticed was in each classroom was a large sign spelling out what was needed for the class (this binder, this workbook, this textbook, 2 pencils, etc.)

-- BenCalvin - 27 Jan 2006

...out in the real world, when real adults want to learn something, they NEVER hire a person who will structure a discovery situation for them

Have you ever seen the Ads for sports instruction DVDs? Like Magic Johnson's Fundamental Basketball Skills?

It's all Direct Instruction and drill. There's no discovery learning the rules and techniques of sports.

-- BenCalvin - 27 Jan 2006

Everyone is a slow learner. It's just that some do it faster than others.

-- SteveH - 27 Jan 2006

I would say that for the basic knowledge and skills of K-8 and for all of the time they are at school, most kids are equal. In other words, with effective teaching of this basic material, you should see few differences in results based on IQ.

For grades K-8, schools are responsible for learning - they are responsible for making sure that learning gets done. Perhaps as you move into 7th and 8th grades, schools can take a more sink or swim approach, but schools still have to ensure that learning takes place. They cannot spiral kids along in the HOPE that they will pick it up the following year. This is incompetent teaching. Just because schools can't guarantee that each student will learn, this doesn't mean that they have little or no responsibility.

-- SteveH - 27 Jan 2006

I'm almost positive the reasons why the scores are flatlining is due to the fact that 1. all the kids are gradually acing the exam and topping out and 2. in these studies, usually in urban schools filled with low performers, the focus was on getting the low performers up to speed, not accelerating the few high performers.

Also, the group of high performers suffered because only a very few kids would be eligible (i.e., capable of sustaining the pace and had the necessary pre-skills) remained in the high performers group due to 1. high mobility (25% in these low SES schools) of students and 2. fewer high IQ kids in low SES schools in the first place. So by, say, fourth grade there were too few kids to sustain a class so these kids got dumped into the next group down. This explains the flatlining

In one of his papers Engelmann points out that, especially in math, there was essentially a zero probablility of kids transferring into the DI schools from other schools who were capable of being placed in the grade level math classes. Occaisonally a few made it into the reading classes. Let that factoid sink in and realize how bad the instructional programs need to be in other schools to achieve such dubious student achievement.

Engelmann also claims that in a low mobility school with sufficient number of high performers, these high performers can be accelerated at 3-4 times the usual acceleration rate that DI achieves. To do this you'd need an affluent suburban school to become a DI immersion school and there's esentially zero probability of that happening in the absence of outright parental revolt.

-- KDeRosa - 27 Jan 2006

For grades K-8, schools are responsible for learning - they are responsible for making sure that learning gets done. Perhaps as you move into 7th and 8th grades, schools can take a more sink or swim approach, but schools still have to ensure that learning takes place. They cannot spiral kids along in the HOPE that they will pick it up the following year. This is incompetent teaching. Just because schools can't guarantee that each student will learn, this doesn't mean that they have little or no responsibility.

Remember the DI mantra: if the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught.

The reason why DI and Kumon create more independent learners by the middle school years is because they start with ahigh degree of student support in the lower grades and gradually fade the support structure by the end of the program. Still, many low performers always need some level of support over the average student. With other kids, the support can be faded even faster.

Bear in mind that in any event the support is faded gradually and that the kids have been exposed to effective learning techniques over the course of many years off of which they can model their own learning. The rug just isn't pulled out from under them come sixth grade. There is no sink or swim, nor should there be at this age.

-- KDeRosa - 27 Jan 2006

For grades K-8, schools are responsible for learning

Perhaps as you move into 7th and 8th grades, schools can take a more sink or swim approach, but schools still have to ensure that learning takes place

This is where the true problem lies for me. There is a myriad of philosophical differences deep in the heart of the middle school teaching staff. They can't even get together on what they should expect or not expect from the average 11-13 yr. old.

There is also some serious "culling of the herd" going on, but not with any kind of consistent authentic rigor. It's hit and miss. Sometimes is seems perfectly fair, but other times the speed of the curriculum and accompanying organizational skills thrown at these kids seems to be meant to simply trip some of them up, revealing little of their academic ability. They have to be developmentally on top of it. Whatever academic gifts they have are irrelevent.

That kind of "real life" experience seems better suited to high school or college where there's a more level playing field developmentally.

It also doesn't seem right to be culling the herd when half of the population of the average middle school has one foot still in grade school (developmentally) and the other half is ready for their high school prom. The maturity discrepency alone should indicate that hard core tracking would be a bad idea.

-- SusanS - 27 Jan 2006

I would say that for the basic knowledge and skills of K-8 and for all of the time they are at school, most kids are equal. In other words, with effective teaching of this basic material, you should see few differences in results based on IQ.

That's my sense.....

I wonder if it's true?

I'm really quite familiar with K-8 content at this point, and I just don't see why IQ should make any difference at all, until you get to low IQ/borderline retardation, of course.

I'm not sure about what a brainy kid is going to be doing.....is he/she going to know the K-8 curriculum 'more deeply'?

The brainy kid will write better; that I do see. Probably faster, more fluently, larger vocabulary, more coherent text....

But I'm not sure what the brainy kid will be doing in other subjects.

With math, I continue to believe that the brainy kid should accelerate.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Steve

Perhaps as you move into 7th and 8th grades, schools can take a more sink or swim approach, but schools still have to ensure that learning takes place

well, that's the question.....and my own thoughts on this subject are incoherent

I guess I'm thinking: Direct Instruction of organizational skills.

Teach these skills directly, as they do in Japan, and perform formative assessment to make sure the kids have got them.

Once the kids have got these skills, and you know they're able to use them steadily you put consequences in place for not using them (not doing homework, etc.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

That reminds me.

Here's something I do believe.

The consequence for being disorganized or irresonsible shouldn't be that you don't learn the material.

A kid who doesn't do his homework should be given detention and made to do his homework there, under supervision.

My friend J., whose son has the 'inattentive' form of A.D.D., has told the school, absolutely, 'If he comes to class without his homework you need to keep him in at recess and make sure he does it.'

J., by the way, oversees all homework every single day.

But she doesn't know whether her son has managed to write down the assignments in his planner correctly or even at all. He is VERY spacy. There's some funky timing thing in his brain; he's just not 'in synch.'

J., like us, didn't find out her son was missing tons of homework assignments until WAY after the fact, and by then he was so far behind there was no hope of catching up. Now he's doing VERY badly in math (this is the slow-track math), and she can't do math at all, so she can't help. (She's phobic.)

The 'consequence' here is that he's not learning any math.

The consequence should be you stay after school and do your math.

Better still, this problem should be prevented.

He has a diagnosis; the diagnosis is obviously correct; he's on a '504C'; the school needs to tell the parents what the assignments are, not trust that this very spacy child will get them all recorded in his planner.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Ken

Engelmann also claims that in a low mobility school with sufficient number of high performers, these high performers can be accelerated at 3-4 times the usual acceleration rate that DI achieves.

WOW

Do you have any idea where that paper is?

I want to get that to everyone here. Superintendent, principal, school board — everyone.

I need to write a post about this, too. (Or did I already do it?? I'm losing it....)

I've finally realized that DI is the resolution to the 'rigor' conundrum.

hmm...

I think I WILL try to put this into a FAST front-page post.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Ken

The reason why DI and Kumon create more independent learners by the middle school years is because they start with ahigh degree of student support in the lower grades and gradually fade the support structure by the end of the program. Still, many low performers always need some level of support over the average student. With other kids, the support can be faded even faster.

wow, thank you

I was feeling my way towards this idea this morning

....what I think Christopher needs in terms of organization & responsibility, etc.....is Direct Instruction followed by 'fading of the prompt' as we used to say in ABA.

Instead, what we're experiencing, with the 'study skills' issue is sink or swim: 6th graders are suddenly, at the outset of middle school, expected to manage their own studies with minimal direct instruction.

Some kids manage to do this; other kids have mothers who do a FAR better job of doing it for them than I've done.

This isn't working, but what would?

Almost certainly Direct Instruction with support being faded back as Christopher gained the ability to manage his studies.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

The consequence for being disorganized or irresponsible shouldn't be that you don't learn the material.

I may need to have this tattooed to my forehead.

BTW, there is WONDERFUL stuff in How to double your child's grades about how to learn, none of which I really knew. I am trying some of it out (I feel that I need to do this in order to be able to instruct Ben). I will be reporting.

-- CarolynJohnston - 27 Jan 2006

"This is where the true problem lies for me. There is a myriad of philosophical differences deep in the heart of the middle school teaching staff. They can't even get together on what they should expect or not expect from the average 11-13 yr. old."

The schools have to do something. They just can't keep allowing "re-dos" forever. Otherwise, the kids will be completely lost in high school. It's going to happen in high school anyways. It's best if the kids get support at home, but schools shouldn't depend on that. Schools should spend quite a bit of time talking about this transition and what they can do. My own opinion is that it shouldn't just magically start in 7th grade. They need to gradually ramp up the expectations from the lower grades. I see that in my son's school, although I wish they would ramp up the curriculum too.

-- SteveH - 27 Jan 2006

Do you have any idea where that paper is?

Here are some blurbs from Engelmann's Summary of Presentation to Council of Scientific Society Presidents, December 8, 2002 that are on point:

Here's Engelmann's description of what's going on in figure 2.12:

Figure 5 shows the math performance (in standard scores) of DI students of various IQ ranges (from over 131 to under 71) as they progressed from grade 1 through grade 3. The lines are parallel, suggesting that the same rate of the students in achievement was realized for all students. This outcome is partly an artifact of the priorities of the DI model, because it focused disproportionately on the lower performers, those students less likely to succeed. With more emphasis on the higher performers, their performance could have been accelerated more dramatically. [Ed: I'm still tracking down the paper where he pegged the number at 3-4 times. It may be in Academic Child Abuse.]

Here Engelmann talks about how the high mobility rate in sucessful DI schools, like the Baltimore City Springs school affects student performance:

Figures 7 and 8 show first-grade and fifth-grade math performance. Most of the first-grade percentiles in 2002 are over the 60th percentile and all are more than double the 1998 level. The fifth-grade performance is not nearly as high, and not as high as the 5th-grade reading performance. This difference is largely a function of turnover. Although a high turnover rate (25% percent per year) affects reading, its results create greater stress in math in grades 4 and 5. The reasons are: (1) it is harder to train teachers in these grades to teach math effectively; and (2) the likelihood of incoming students fitting into any group of students that has been in the school since K or 1 is zero. (Reading is different because at least some students coming in read well enough to perform in one of groups in the fourth or fifth grade.) To accommodate incoming students for math, the higher performers (continuing students) are often compromised because they represent a relatively small group, and there is no practical way to place them appropriately. Even so, the 5th-grade math performance is far superior to what it had been in 1998, with nine of the schools at least doubling their 1998 scores.

[snip]

Because the data on virtually every DI site in Follow Through, Baltimore and Houston have more than 25% annual turnover, the potential for accelerating the performances of at-risk students is quite a bit greater than the composite results indicate.

-- KDeRosa - 27 Jan 2006

Some more good points on motivating students and controlling behavior from Achieving a Full-school, Full-immersion Implementation of Direct Instruction:

7. Acceleration requires a system for motivating students and making schoolwork very important to them. Part of the acceleration involves using practices that motivate students, that make them concerned about their performance in school, and that provide them with a self-image of a successful learner who can succeed in academic pursuits. Part of the acceleration occurs through instruction in which students learn that they do succeed and are therefore smart. Acceleration is greatly increased if students are motivated to learn and perform well. Teachers must be trained to tell students what they expect them to achieve and how to respond positively to their performance. Teachers must let students know the rules that enable a group to work hard and reach its goal. The broad rules include students working as a team and thinking about what they have learned even when not in school. If students think about what they are learning and apply what they learn outside of the classroom, they will learn more during a given period of time.

4. The school must be accountable for inducing behaviors beyond the classroom that facilitate learning and cooperation. Students learn from models in the school. How do students behave toward each other? How do they behave in the cafeteria? How do they behave on field trips? How much pride do they have in their school? These questions are addressed by establishing schoolwide routines that promote positive models for any student and that provide a basis for students being proud of their school. The school must have schoolwide rules for students interacting with others (such as no name-calling) and for behavior in different parts of the school.

-- KDeRosa - 27 Jan 2006

BTW, there is WONDERFUL stuff in How to double your child's grades about how to learn, none of which I really knew. I am trying some of it out (I feel that I need to do this in order to be able to instruct Ben). I will be reporting.

THAT BOOK IS FANTASTIC!!!!!

btw, I ordered a cheap copy of Walter Pauk's How to Study in College book.

It's incredible.

I'm 99% positive Schwartz's book is Pauk-for-children (though I should check copyright dates).

Yes, I'm going to be using Schwartz's techniques myself.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

How to Study in College by Walter Pauk

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Because the data on virtually every DI site in Follow Through, Baltimore and Houston have more than 25% annual turnover, the potential for accelerating the performances of at-risk students is quite a bit greater than the composite results indicate.

Absolutely.

That really is staggering.

25%

Incredible.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

The school must be accountable for inducing behaviors beyond the classroom that facilitate learning and cooperation. Students learn from models in the school. How do students behave toward each other? How do they behave in the cafeteria? How do they behave on field trips? How much pride do they have in their school? These questions are addressed by establishing schoolwide routines that promote positive models for any student and that provide a basis for students being proud of their school. The school must have schoolwide rules for students interacting with others (such as no name-calling) and for behavior in different parts of the school.

wow

that is really interesting

that's obviously what KIPP has done

I'm sure our school could do more of this

we have non-stop name-calling there, as far as I can tell

Christopher, who's been RAISED not to name-call, does it, too

I don't even know what to tell him, exactly

He's getting called names every day, chronically.....and I don't quite feel like I can shame him into not 'getting in the game' so to speak

I did tell him to STOP calling his closest friends 'anorexic midgets'

He's close to a set of twins who are short, and who talk about calories a lot, because their folks talk about calories a lot

The twins call Christopher 'fat'; then he calls them 'anorexic midget.' (He claims he's the responder-name-caller, and that may be so.)

I finally told him to knock it off with 'midget' no matter how many times his friends call him fat.

Find something else.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

I would also like ALL of the kids to stop calling each other 'gay.'

This is CONSTANT.

And you know some of those kids are going to be gay, and probably are terrified they're gay now.

I'm going to start noodging Christopher about this.

IT's a little delicate, because.......I probably have an idea of a couple of boys who may be gay......AND Christopher has no idea AND I don't want to put this thought in his head......

So I can't say, 'Stop saying gay, because you're hurting so-and-so's feelings.'

Life is complicated.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

The gay name-calling thing is tough because they're doing it all the way down into grade school. Many of the kids have no idea of its meaning, but the ones who do are relentless in "smearing" others.

And then there's the special ed crowd.

About a year ago my LD son told me he thought he might be gay. Okay, big breath, that's fine. I try to say something about not worrying about such things until later (he looked very worried about this.) He is a very passive, sweet 13-old who seems like he's 8 or 9. So, a few months after that we're in a barber shop and he picks up a Time (or Newsweek) with a handsome teen on it and the cover says something about Gay Teens. He looks at it and looks at me and says, "I think that's me, mom." I think, okay, I'm cool. This is not a problem. It's okay, we'll deal with this in an open-minded way.

Finally, we're sitting at the table a couple of weeks ago and he brings it up again. I can't take it anymore so I ask him to tell me what "gay" means. Well, his eyes widen and he says with a straight face, "Silly, weird." I decided the time had come, ready or not, for the real definition. Of course he looked horrified because he has not gone into puberty and he isn't really thinking about sex at all. Unfortunately, I had no choice in the matter. Society has decided that I have to go into this stuff with my special ed kid whether he's ready for it or not.

-- SusanS - 27 Jan 2006

That reminds me how I got my sons (both under 5 at the time, IIRC) to stop saying the "f" word. They were so embarrassed after I told them what it meant they stopped saying it for years.

-- SusanJ - 27 Jan 2006

The gay name-calling thing is tough because they're doing it all the way down into grade school

oh, boy

I don't remember our having it in grade school

but what do I know

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Finally, we're sitting at the table a couple of weeks ago and he brings it up again. I can't take it anymore so I ask him to tell me what "gay" means. Well, his eyes widen and he says with a straight face, "Silly, weird." I decided the time had come, ready or not, for the real definition. Of course he looked horrified because he has not gone into puberty and he isn't really thinking about sex at all. Unfortunately, I had no choice in the matter. Society has decided that I have to go into this stuff with my special ed kid whether he's ready for it or not.

yeah, well, you've just NAILED my big fat beef with SOCIETY

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

I've had to explain BILLIONS of things I didn't know about until I was in my late teens or twenties to a kid who already has plenty to deal with

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Then there was the day my neighbor accidentally told Christopher, who was maybe 8 at the time, an o*** s** joke.

She was MORTIFIED.

Poor thing.

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

(I don't think he got it. DELETED)

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

so i've gone as far with that as i possibly could have....

i think i'll take out the TELLING DETAIL

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

Susan J

That reminds me how I got my sons (both under 5 at the time, IIRC) to stop saying the "f" word. They were so embarrassed after I told them what it meant they stopped saying it for years.

whoa

talk about ruthless

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Jan 2006

That reminds me how I got my sons (both under 5 at the time, IIRC) to stop saying the "f" word. They were so embarrassed after I told them what it meant they stopped saying it for years.

I'm going to have to remember that one.

-- CarolynJohnston - 28 Jan 2006

i think i'll take out the TELLING DETAIL

there's always the revision history!

-- CarolynJohnston - 28 Jan 2006