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10 Jan 2006 - 17:56
This is amazing. I just got off the telephone with the mother of one of the kids in this fall's after-school Singapore Math class. She said my class gave him 'that extra inspiration' (something like that) he needed — and that he had been moved up to the accelerated class! That makes 3 kids who've moved to the accelerated track after taking the class — 3 out of 5 or 6 children in all. (Some of the kids in the class were already in the accelerated track.) I'm stunned. First of all, I had no idea this child wasn't already in the accelerated track. He's a Math Guy. Second.....whoa. I've worked hard on the class, but it isn't much of a class (yet). I don't have good classroom management skills, I'm teaching kids after they've had a full day, I'm still feeling my way, etc. Also: I'm using a curriculum designed to be used 5 days a week, not 1 day a week after school. That's a huge challenge. I wonder what's going right? These kids weren't crazy about the bar models; they liked Brain Maths. On the other hand, by the end of the class we were doing two-variable algebra problems, and most of them were using bar models to figure out which operations to use. My question is whether the main reason these kids jump forward has to do with motivation. As Nick's Mama said, I've fallen in love with math, and it shows. Some of the teachers at the Main Street School love math (maybe a lot of them do). Mrs. Woeckener, Christopher's Phase 4 teacher last year, sure did. She'd been an accountant for 15 years before becoming a teacher, and if you raised the subject of math with her she'd say, "I love math." But they have to teach all day long, and they're on the hook, and so are the kids. In school, math is serious business; it's the children's job. The other thing is: I'm just discovering math, and that shows, too. Normally I wouldn't think it's a good idea for a teacher to be an obvious amateur (and I think you could get killed taking such a stance in middle school). But in an after-school class on Singapore Math, it seems to work. Ms. Duque (now D'Arcy), Christopher's brilliant 5th grade teacher, told me last year she thought it was good for Christopher to see me learning math along with him. She said I was modeling how to learn math and how to tackle a problem and relish the challenge. I wonder whether this is a case of 'infectious enthusiasm'? Hard to tell how much the Singapore curriculum per se has to do with it. The kids in last year's class were using SRA Math; the kids this year are using TRAILBLAZERS. So I don't see this as a Singapore-versus-constructivism smackdown (wrestling terminology).The boy whose mother I just spoke with didn't even like doing the bar models. Some of the kids have loved them, and really taken off with them, but not him. He was a BRAIN MATHS guy. So I have no idea what's going on! All I know is, it's very cool. I'm thrilled.
2 Singapore Math Class kids move to Phase 4
another student moves to Phase 4
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Catherine, I am definately an amature that is learning with my children. Maybe part of our enthusiasm and new-found love of math comes from my choice of curriculum? I use Singapore Math and various resources like "How Math Works". I have a collection of abacuses/abaci(?) and darn it, it's so much fun (in my best Willie Wonka voice). I don't feel like I am second guessing myself and my kids have tasted success in math. I wish I had this confidence with all my homeschooling curricula.... At one of our local elementary schools, the teachers all made public their disdain for the county's adoption of Everyday Math. The took a vote and made it known to the parents. Imagine having to teach a curriculum that you had no faith in. -- NicksMama - 10 Jan 2006
Maybe part of our enthusiasm and new-found love of math comes from my choice of curriculum? I use Singapore Math and various resources like "How Math Works". I have a collection of abacuses/abaci(?) and darn it, it's so much fun (in my best Willie Wonka voice). I don't feel like I am second guessing myself and my kids have tasted success in math. I wish I had this confidence with all my homeschooling curricula.... What is 'How Math Works'? Singapore Math is a fantastic curriculum, that's for sure. Wonderful. -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
At one of our local elementary schools, the teachers all made public their disdain for the county's adoption of Everyday Math. The took a vote and made it known to the parents. Imagine having to teach a curriculum that you had no faith in. Oh my gosh! Was this covered in the papers? wow I've never heard of something like that. -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
No, it was not covered in the papers. I heard this from a mom who just pulled her K, 3 & 4th graders out of ps. When they switched curriculum, there was information given via a Parent's Night. My guess is that during this event, this was made known. Other teacher's have beefed up the program with "mad minute" drills. "How Math Works" is a Readers Digest book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895778505/ I am planning on using it for my kids in a few years. So far, I have found it helpful for my own learning. -- NicksMama - 10 Jan 2006
"No, it was not covered in the papers." I'm still trying to figure out why this sort of thing happens in our town. 25 percent of the kids go to other schools and not a word in our small town newspaper. As I said before, there are a lot of "peeps" at the soccer field, but nobody dares to go public. Even me. I wrote up a big letter to the editor that I haven't sent. Why? I'm afraid I'll be trashed. I admit it. I'm a wimp. Apparently, there are a lot of other wimps in our town. It seems quite political in some respects. Public school versus vouchers and charter schools; full-inclusion versus ability tracking. -- SteveH - 10 Jan 2006
Oh thanks for the title! -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
Steve 25 percent of the kids go to other schools and not a word in our small town newspaper. As I said before, there are a lot of "peeps" at the soccer field, but nobody dares to go public. Even me. I wrote up a big letter to the editor that I haven't sent. I'm not brilliant at politics, unfortunately (THOUGH I AM RUTHLESS!), but I've learned a couple of things. First: your situation is an 'opportunity' for brainstorming. I'd bet the ranch there's something you can do that you just haven't thought of yet. A letter to the editor might not be the way to go; the fact that you're hesitating means you have doubts. How about some kind of 'positive' approach. 'Positive' in the sense that you don't overtly position yourself as adversarial. Ed and I are thinking about trying to put together an "Irvington Educational Forum" -- something like that. We might give awards to good teachers, or host speakers to talk about Singapore & Saxon -- we might do anything. The parents who started CAN (Cure Autism Now) told me that starting your own foundation is a fantastic idea, because it gives you access. They were right. Say you start some kind of quasi-official group.....suddenly you're a force to be reckoned with. The school board has to listen to you, the superintendent has to listen to you. Because You're Official. (This is why people set up Think Tanks, no? Heck, you could set yourself up, on your own, as a Hometown Think Tank & issue White Papers to the local newspaper & give interviews. I'm serious.) You have to handle small towns differently from the way you handle a city. These people are your neighbors; you're going to be with them a long time. The only reason Ed and I have been as aggressive as we have is that aggression seems to be the 'rule' here. Irvington parents can be incredibly intense; I've heard all kinds of scuttlebut about how much teachers & administrators fear & even dislike Irvington parents. (That's not the only emotion they feel towards us, of course.) I've asked myself: could I teach here???? I'm not so sure I could! What I'm saying is: the social set-up here causes us to be more aggressive than we'd choose to be under other circumstances. Here's another example. When we first moved here, we were told NOT TO CROSS THE SPECIAL ED DIRECTOR. Everyone said this. Don't cross her. We took that advice, even though we had some huge problems at times. We ended up with a fantastic program for Jimmy, who was the first severely autistic child to be brought back to district — and we ended up with a great relationship with the director. Was that the right way to go? I don't know. Jimmy also languished in bad programs for a very long time, waiting for the good program to get going. (That was an Achilles heel of the director.) Apparently a lot of parents were suing, and most parents were furious. So, in that case, we were the least obstreporous special ed parents in town. What I'm saying is: take a look at your situation and mull. You (probably) can't write just one letter to the editor and have things be better (I realize that's not what you were suggesting); you have to be in it for the long haul. That means you have to find some way to use 'spaced repetition'; you need some way to be continually popping up on people's radar screens, noodging & petitioning & lobbying. As I say, I'm not brilliant at politics, so I don't know what you might try; I'm not sure the approach we seem to be developing is a good idea (though I think it probably is, in this context). Sorry for all the 'free advice' — but I think a person as expert and articulate as you has a lot to contribute. Other parents can't make the case the way you can. I quote you guys all the time. -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
I've quoted Steve and Ken so much I'm starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about. -- SusanS - 10 Jan 2006
I've quoted Steve and Ken so much I'm starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about. ding! ding! ding! Wit and Wisdom! -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I read the most beautiful Bible verse the other day: He went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:8 Taking that in the secular sense, that's Kitchen Table Math for me. Every so often, I find out another reason why I went out without knowing whither... Today is one of those days. Kitchen Table Math created a group of experts I could quote as I push for changes here (and elsewhere). For me, ktm functions as an informal think tank. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Of course, that will all change when we move into our brand-new International Headquarters. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
brand-new Kitchen Table Math International Headquarters
-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
"Of course, that will all change when we move into our brand-new International Headquarters." Junket! I presume you'll choose a really good wine for the grand opening? -- DougSundseth - 11 Jan 2006
"A letter to the editor might not be the way to go; the fact that you're hesitating means you have doubts." I have my doubts because although it might stir up a lot of feeling, it probably won't change anything. Actually, I'm not afraid to send it in. I would just like to feel that it is a process for real change. That's the rub. I think many parents pull their kids and keep quiet because they feel that they can't fight basic school philosophy and assumptions. An organized group of parents would be the best bet, but how could we avoid the expected conflict with the IEP parent group. We have people from other towns moving to our town just because of our special education reputation. There is a basic conflict between full-inclusion and providing the advanced students with what they need. This is not just about getting a better math curriculum. It is about what constitutes a good K-8 education for all kids. "You have to handle small towns differently from the way you handle a city. These people are your neighbors; you're going to be with them a long time." Yes, well, the eighth grade math teacher and two of the school committee members go to my church. They are very nice people. Small town. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
A random joke I heard once, since you mentioned the ex-accountant math teacher: Q: What's the definition of a statistician? A: Someone who's good at math but doesn't have the personality to be an accountant. -- PaulMiller - 11 Jan 2006
An organized group of parents would be the best bet, but how could we avoid the expected conflict with the IEP parent group. As far as IEP parents go, some of them have to have other children who are not only IEP, but bright, as well. This is the parent to find. This parent has to have concerns about their other children's education, I would think. This parent could go toe-to-toe with another IEP parent pretty easily. I know if I hadn't had my other son I would not have been as aware of the slow pacing and impact on the classroom full inclusion can have. Again, I think full inclusion might be the answer for some children who are not so severe, but it's wrong to think it's the only answer out there, just as self-containment was thought to be in earlier times. I'm also pretty sure that my LD son learns the least when he is mainstreamed than when he is with his teachers moving at his own pace. However, he does need the exposure to what other kids his age are doing and saying. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
Doug Junket! You said it. JUNKET! I presume you'll choose a really good wine for the grand opening? You betcha. A life-extending really good wine. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Having talked with some parents of IEP kids, I know that there are big differences of opinion. My feeling is that the full-inclusion ("We don't do pull out.") crowd won out. There are even many parents of non-IEP kids who like the idea where all kids are equal in a common, supportive, learning environment. Then, there are those parents who find their kids are not being challenged. They grumble, complain, make up the difference at home, or send their kids somewhere else. At our schools, ideology collides with reality. The result is that they redefine what constitutes a good K-8 education - and that means only a half year of pre-algebra in eighth grade. This is not true everywhere. In a neighboring town, they have eighth grade courses in Pre-Algebera, Algebra, and Advanced Algebra. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
Steve An organized group of parents would be the best bet, but how could we avoid the expected conflict with the IEP parent group. We have people from other towns moving to our town just because of our special education reputation. I'm sure there's a way around this. A couple of things:
Here in Irvington, I think I've come up with a way to make common cause with the parents of GATE kids. (I'll report back on this.) I've mentioned before that these parents collected 200 signatures on a petition to the school board to keep the math tracks. I didn't sign that petition. I wasn't necessarily opposed to signing it, and I would have signed if I'd seen research that persuaded me the tracks were good for everyone. But Christopher was tracked 'down,' and we were seeing negative effects. I've now talked to the mom who spearheaded that effort, and we'll probably be working together. I hope so. (I think we're all getting together this weekend.) btw, she told me that she would have worded the petition differently if she had been the only person involved. What makes me able to work with a GATE parent is the following ideas, most of which come from Engelmann:
oh! I just saw your comment — will read it -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
The result is that they redefine what constitutes a good K-8 education - and that means only a half year of pre-algebra in eighth grade. This is not true everywhere. In a neighboring town, they have eighth grade courses in Pre-Algebera, Algebra, and Advanced Algebra. I think that may be your ticket. Parents as a rule (in my experience) don't like subjecting their kids to killer competition. HOWEVER, parents are actively competitive on their children's behalf themselves. You might want to start using spaced repetition to continually bring up the fact that kids in the neighboring town are getting an education kids in your town aren't. When I went to the PTSA Executive Board meeting, I took the Singapore Math placement test for 6th grade. It was HUGELY effective. Then I stressed that this material was taught to all children — the only difference being the speed with which children mastered the material. Every person there took that seriously, and the former president of the PTSA said that Long Island schools follow the same philosophy. You better believe I'm going to be telling people that Long Island kids are getting something we're not. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
creative idea My sister-in-law, who is a teacher in IL, told me that a lady she knows volunteered to be the school board correspondent for a small, local paper. boy was that a brilliant move I've thought about doing it myself, and maybe I should do it. But I can't stand the thought of going to our board meetings. They last til midnight or beyond. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
IEP parents are rarely happy. I should know. So true. And they don't think that any parent understands unless they have a kid with a problem. IEP parents bond quickly when they meet. Also, many of these parents have had really dumb things said to them by people who don't have kids with problems, and they are often smarting from the sting of such comments. Focusing on the best education for everyone seems the best way to go. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
But that brings up another point. Research into behaviorism always finds that just 'seeing' a behavior or a reality clearly will cause changes. For instance, if you want to start a diet, and you begin by writing down everything you eat, you automatically start eating less. This has been found over and over again. Remarkably, this phenomenon is true even with autistic behaviors. Many's the time I've launched a program of writing down every instance of some behavior we wanted to STOMP OUT, and INSTANTLY those behaviors decreased. This was true at our autism school, too. They could document it. Paul Peterson, I think it is, at Harvard, argues that this is the phenomenon that will cause NCLB to work to some extent. He says that states won't hold schools accountable, won't close them down, etc. BUT, the fact that schools have to publish their data will have an effect. Once everyone can see your failures, your failures start to decrease. SO....if someone were to become the school board correspondent, and were to bring up repetitively the fact that 25% of the town's parents have left the district, that alone will bring pressure on the school board & school administrators. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Susan S Focusing on the best education for everyone seems the best way to go. Right, and I think it can be done. I'll see how things go with the GATE mom.....her beef is that the school is 'teaching to the lowest common denominator' (she didn't say this to me; someone else told me that was her issue). Well, obviously, 'teaching to the lowest common denominator' doesn't sit well with parents like me who have a kid flunking slow-track math in the 4th grade. We can't make the focus 'other people's children.' The focus has to be on the school and its obligation to teach every child a world-class curriculum. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Anyone who has any bright ideas about what I ought to do with my Big Three Minutes tonight, I'm all ears. I would so like to not go to this thing. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I'm contemplating just bringing some hand-outs, distributing them, and leaving. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
tonight
-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
The result is that they redefine what constitutes a good K-8 education - and that means only a half year of pre-algebra in eighth grade. This is not true everywhere. In a neighboring town, they have eighth grade courses in Pre-Algebera, Algebra, and Advanced Algebra. "I think that may be your ticket." This was part of my unsent letter to the editor. It would make an impression, but I don't think it would change anything. This is all about changing fundamental assumptions and expectations. This is also not about GATE versus IEP. I don't like separate GATE or tracking programs. I would perhaps be happier with full-inclusion if the year-to-year expectations were higher and they used better curricula. But, the point I made before is that the spiraling, low expectation curricula go hand-in-hand with full-inclusion. The only way you can track by age is to lower expectations and use some sort of vague Differentiated Learning scheme for the better students. Higher expectations and more rigorous curricula are incompatible with full-inclusion. If you get rid of the dogmatic demand for full-inclusion, then there are no guarantees, but at least you open up an avenue to setting higher year-to-year standards for all. You can perhaps not wait until 3rd grade to enforce mastery of adds and subtracts to 20. You can finally admit that some students shouldn't be automatically moved on to the next grade because they will see the material again. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
If you get rid of the dogmatic demand for full-inclusion, then there are no guarantees, but at least you open up an avenue to setting higher year-to-year standards for all. That's what people think about all Inputs-type reforms. We've been making Inputs reforms for — is it at least 20 years now? Is it more? I no longer believe there is any inputs reform that will change things appreciably. For me, it's time to focus on outputs. It's time to focus on the kids. What have they learned? Did they learn a year's worth material in a year's time? Did they learn it to mastery? Collect data on student achievement (easy enough) and find out whether there's a single school in the country where kids move as fast as they do in one of Engelmann's programs or in Singapore. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I'm repeating myself, but I want to stress this. We're assuming that state tests are 'trivial.' They are trivial, but many bright children in good schools are not managing to do anything more than 'meet standards.' The number of kids in Christopher's grade who made it to 'exceeds standards' last year was very small. Maybe 10%. At present, the state tests are meaningful for normal kids, too. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Apparently, Manhattan has begun to collapse the two meets standards scores into one. At least, that's what the math warriors say. Instead of breaking out the proficient scores into 3s and 4s, you just hear how many kids scored above 2. People think this is probably being done to mask a decline in the number of 4s. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
The number of kids in Christopher's grade who made it to 'exceeds standards' last year was very small. Maybe 10%. That seems low. Especially for a school district like yours. What is the average amount of kids who "exceeds standards" for the average school, I wonder? What is the expectation? It's got to be higher than 10%. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
Based on NAEP results only a few percent of kids are advanced in math. And we know how easy the NAEP exam is. If the NY exam is on par with the NAEP, you'd expect a typical affluent school that is about 2/3 of an SD above the mean to have about 20% of the kids at advanced. This is what you'd predict based on the SES/IQ correlation. So an affluent school performing significantly below this level has problems. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
"At present, the state tests are meaningful for normal kids, too." And the parent/teacher groups think they are meaningful. But they are only hoping for a few points upwards, not any sort of profound change. All of the parents who expect a lot more are teaching at home or have moved their kids elsewhere. For example, in the hopes of improving math scores, our school is testing the use of Everyday Math in third grade (rather than MathLand). Other than this being a really bad way to test a new curriculum, this is not a big improvement. However, they will be thrilled if math scores go up at all. I'm all for output testing, but you have to start with a proper goal; a full course in algebra by eighth grade. We don't even have that. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
Is it like ours where there's a pretty big spread for each of the three levels? The three levels being Below Standards, Meets Standards, and Exceeds Standards. Of course, we of the Special Ed ilk really enjoy it when we get our scores complete with a big exclamation point stamped on it and the words in bold, ACADEMIC WARNING! Yes, thanks for letting us know. We had no idea. Yet another reason why IEP parents are often in bad moods. My other son exceeds standards pretty much across the board, but there are definitely areas where he is quite the average 11-year old, so I'm always a bit surprised that he does as well as he does in areas other than math. It has to catch more than just the very advanced I would think. But I'm not sure. I'll have to go drag some of them out and look them over. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
"Yet another reason why IEP parents are often in bad moods." You said it---we got "meets standards" (much to my surprise!) for 3rd grade (and just barely), but I am expecting things to go downhill rather quickly in the years to come. Of course, it seems my bad mood is determined when I walk in the door, look at the assignment notebook, and see the Everyday Math Journal on the table, or see another extended project which I will end up completing with not very much child involvement except for cutting, pasting, and coloring. -- KathyIggy - 11 Jan 2006
Susan The number of kids in Christopher's grade who made it to 'exceeds standards' last year was very small. Maybe 10%. That seems low. I should be clear about this. I'm talking only about the 5th grade TONYSS test, which is a privately marketed test schools buy if they want to do testing in 'off years.' At least one or two teachers have told me that the ELA section was much harder than it normally is. In Christopher's class of 19 kids, which I'm fairly certain is representative of the entire 5th grade class, only two kids got 4s on both the ELA & the math — because only two kids got 4s on the ELA. It's a feather in Christopher's class, because the other child in his particular class who got a 4 on the ELA is this amazing girl — super, super smart — WHO IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ORGANIZED AND RESPONSBLE. This kid is amazing. I was class mother, and when I called her dad about having her turn in a page for the scrapbook, he said, 'J. handles all her own papers and backpack.' He had no idea what was in her backpack or her notebooks or anything — and he wasn't shirking. SHE COULD HANDLE IT. She was like a 10 year old college student. THAT'S THE ONLY OTHER KID WHO GOT A 4 ON THE ELA. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
(In that class.) -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I'm not sure what our level of '4s' is. I should check. I wonder if I can check QUICKLY. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Here it is. 4th - grade ELA - 2001 4s: 47% 3s:44% 2s: 9% -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
At least one or two teachers have told me that the ELA section was much harder than it normally is. If the test is normed this is irrelevant. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
You can see that our entire district is 'meeting standards.' But only half of our district is exceeding standards. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Ken The TONYSS are the mystery test. No one knows anything about it; no one tells the parents anything; the teachers know nothing; blah, blah, blah & blah. Is it normed? No one knows. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
8th grade - ELA - 2000-2001 4s 33% 3s 46% 2s 18% 1s 4% It's here What I don't have is the expertise to assess is whether our kids are dropping at the same/slower/faster rate than the rest of NY state. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Ed's just written a BRILLIANT short statement to deliver at the Forum tonight. I'll post it tomorrow — -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Ken you'd expect a typical affluent school that is about 2/3 of an SD above the mean to have about 20% of the kids at advanced Would you say that Irvington is significantly above where you'd expect based on NAEP, SES, etc.? Or about right? (I assume we're not below, correct?) -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
You need to know how your state does over all, fit the scores to a normal distribution, then you just need to see how far Irvington's scores are shifted from the mean. they should be about 2/3 to 1 SD above the mean to account for SES effects alone. With a 2/3 sd shift, about half of Irvington studnets would be in the top 25th percentile in any normed test. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
uh...... how would i go about doing that? -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
One way is to find a normal distribution calculator and plug in points depending on your dataset until you get the curve to fit the data. First do it for the state and then do it for your school. Then you just subtract the first mean from the second to determine the shift. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
oh cool — fantastic! thanks so much! I probably won't attempt that now; I want to get my act together for tonight..... -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
another student moves to Phase 4
This is amazing. I just got off the telephone with the mother of one of the kids in this fall's after-school Singapore Math class. She said my class gave him 'that extra inspiration' (something like that) he needed — and that he had been moved up to the accelerated class! That makes 3 kids who've moved to the accelerated track after taking the class — 3 out of 5 or 6 children in all. (Some of the kids in the class were already in the accelerated track.) I'm stunned. First of all, I had no idea this child wasn't already in the accelerated track. He's a Math Guy. Second.....whoa. I've worked hard on the class, but it isn't much of a class (yet). I don't have good classroom management skills, I'm teaching kids after they've had a full day, I'm still feeling my way, etc. Also: I'm using a curriculum designed to be used 5 days a week, not 1 day a week after school. That's a huge challenge. I wonder what's going right? These kids weren't crazy about the bar models; they liked Brain Maths. On the other hand, by the end of the class we were doing two-variable algebra problems, and most of them were using bar models to figure out which operations to use. My question is whether the main reason these kids jump forward has to do with motivation. As Nick's Mama said, I've fallen in love with math, and it shows. Some of the teachers at the Main Street School love math (maybe a lot of them do). Mrs. Woeckener, Christopher's Phase 4 teacher last year, sure did. She'd been an accountant for 15 years before becoming a teacher, and if you raised the subject of math with her she'd say, "I love math." But they have to teach all day long, and they're on the hook, and so are the kids. In school, math is serious business; it's the children's job. The other thing is: I'm just discovering math, and that shows, too. Normally I wouldn't think it's a good idea for a teacher to be an obvious amateur (and I think you could get killed taking such a stance in middle school). But in an after-school class on Singapore Math, it seems to work. Ms. Duque (now D'Arcy), Christopher's brilliant 5th grade teacher, told me last year she thought it was good for Christopher to see me learning math along with him. She said I was modeling how to learn math and how to tackle a problem and relish the challenge. I wonder whether this is a case of 'infectious enthusiasm'? Hard to tell how much the Singapore curriculum per se has to do with it. The kids in last year's class were using SRA Math; the kids this year are using TRAILBLAZERS. So I don't see this as a Singapore-versus-constructivism smackdown (wrestling terminology).The boy whose mother I just spoke with didn't even like doing the bar models. Some of the kids have loved them, and really taken off with them, but not him. He was a BRAIN MATHS guy. So I have no idea what's going on! All I know is, it's very cool. I'm thrilled.
2 Singapore Math Class kids move to Phase 4
another student moves to Phase 4
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Catherine, I am definately an amature that is learning with my children. Maybe part of our enthusiasm and new-found love of math comes from my choice of curriculum? I use Singapore Math and various resources like "How Math Works". I have a collection of abacuses/abaci(?) and darn it, it's so much fun (in my best Willie Wonka voice). I don't feel like I am second guessing myself and my kids have tasted success in math. I wish I had this confidence with all my homeschooling curricula.... At one of our local elementary schools, the teachers all made public their disdain for the county's adoption of Everyday Math. The took a vote and made it known to the parents. Imagine having to teach a curriculum that you had no faith in. -- NicksMama - 10 Jan 2006
Maybe part of our enthusiasm and new-found love of math comes from my choice of curriculum? I use Singapore Math and various resources like "How Math Works". I have a collection of abacuses/abaci(?) and darn it, it's so much fun (in my best Willie Wonka voice). I don't feel like I am second guessing myself and my kids have tasted success in math. I wish I had this confidence with all my homeschooling curricula.... What is 'How Math Works'? Singapore Math is a fantastic curriculum, that's for sure. Wonderful. -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
At one of our local elementary schools, the teachers all made public their disdain for the county's adoption of Everyday Math. The took a vote and made it known to the parents. Imagine having to teach a curriculum that you had no faith in. Oh my gosh! Was this covered in the papers? wow I've never heard of something like that. -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
No, it was not covered in the papers. I heard this from a mom who just pulled her K, 3 & 4th graders out of ps. When they switched curriculum, there was information given via a Parent's Night. My guess is that during this event, this was made known. Other teacher's have beefed up the program with "mad minute" drills. "How Math Works" is a Readers Digest book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895778505/ I am planning on using it for my kids in a few years. So far, I have found it helpful for my own learning. -- NicksMama - 10 Jan 2006
"No, it was not covered in the papers." I'm still trying to figure out why this sort of thing happens in our town. 25 percent of the kids go to other schools and not a word in our small town newspaper. As I said before, there are a lot of "peeps" at the soccer field, but nobody dares to go public. Even me. I wrote up a big letter to the editor that I haven't sent. Why? I'm afraid I'll be trashed. I admit it. I'm a wimp. Apparently, there are a lot of other wimps in our town. It seems quite political in some respects. Public school versus vouchers and charter schools; full-inclusion versus ability tracking. -- SteveH - 10 Jan 2006
Oh thanks for the title! -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
Steve 25 percent of the kids go to other schools and not a word in our small town newspaper. As I said before, there are a lot of "peeps" at the soccer field, but nobody dares to go public. Even me. I wrote up a big letter to the editor that I haven't sent. I'm not brilliant at politics, unfortunately (THOUGH I AM RUTHLESS!), but I've learned a couple of things. First: your situation is an 'opportunity' for brainstorming. I'd bet the ranch there's something you can do that you just haven't thought of yet. A letter to the editor might not be the way to go; the fact that you're hesitating means you have doubts. How about some kind of 'positive' approach. 'Positive' in the sense that you don't overtly position yourself as adversarial. Ed and I are thinking about trying to put together an "Irvington Educational Forum" -- something like that. We might give awards to good teachers, or host speakers to talk about Singapore & Saxon -- we might do anything. The parents who started CAN (Cure Autism Now) told me that starting your own foundation is a fantastic idea, because it gives you access. They were right. Say you start some kind of quasi-official group.....suddenly you're a force to be reckoned with. The school board has to listen to you, the superintendent has to listen to you. Because You're Official. (This is why people set up Think Tanks, no? Heck, you could set yourself up, on your own, as a Hometown Think Tank & issue White Papers to the local newspaper & give interviews. I'm serious.) You have to handle small towns differently from the way you handle a city. These people are your neighbors; you're going to be with them a long time. The only reason Ed and I have been as aggressive as we have is that aggression seems to be the 'rule' here. Irvington parents can be incredibly intense; I've heard all kinds of scuttlebut about how much teachers & administrators fear & even dislike Irvington parents. (That's not the only emotion they feel towards us, of course.) I've asked myself: could I teach here???? I'm not so sure I could! What I'm saying is: the social set-up here causes us to be more aggressive than we'd choose to be under other circumstances. Here's another example. When we first moved here, we were told NOT TO CROSS THE SPECIAL ED DIRECTOR. Everyone said this. Don't cross her. We took that advice, even though we had some huge problems at times. We ended up with a fantastic program for Jimmy, who was the first severely autistic child to be brought back to district — and we ended up with a great relationship with the director. Was that the right way to go? I don't know. Jimmy also languished in bad programs for a very long time, waiting for the good program to get going. (That was an Achilles heel of the director.) Apparently a lot of parents were suing, and most parents were furious. So, in that case, we were the least obstreporous special ed parents in town. What I'm saying is: take a look at your situation and mull. You (probably) can't write just one letter to the editor and have things be better (I realize that's not what you were suggesting); you have to be in it for the long haul. That means you have to find some way to use 'spaced repetition'; you need some way to be continually popping up on people's radar screens, noodging & petitioning & lobbying. As I say, I'm not brilliant at politics, so I don't know what you might try; I'm not sure the approach we seem to be developing is a good idea (though I think it probably is, in this context). Sorry for all the 'free advice' — but I think a person as expert and articulate as you has a lot to contribute. Other parents can't make the case the way you can. I quote you guys all the time. -- CatherineJohnson - 10 Jan 2006
I've quoted Steve and Ken so much I'm starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about. -- SusanS - 10 Jan 2006
I've quoted Steve and Ken so much I'm starting to sound like I know what I'm talking about. ding! ding! ding! Wit and Wisdom! -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I read the most beautiful Bible verse the other day: He went out, not knowing whither he went.
Hebrews 11:8 Taking that in the secular sense, that's Kitchen Table Math for me. Every so often, I find out another reason why I went out without knowing whither... Today is one of those days. Kitchen Table Math created a group of experts I could quote as I push for changes here (and elsewhere). For me, ktm functions as an informal think tank. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Of course, that will all change when we move into our brand-new International Headquarters. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
brand-new Kitchen Table Math International Headquarters
-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
"Of course, that will all change when we move into our brand-new International Headquarters." Junket! I presume you'll choose a really good wine for the grand opening? -- DougSundseth - 11 Jan 2006
"A letter to the editor might not be the way to go; the fact that you're hesitating means you have doubts." I have my doubts because although it might stir up a lot of feeling, it probably won't change anything. Actually, I'm not afraid to send it in. I would just like to feel that it is a process for real change. That's the rub. I think many parents pull their kids and keep quiet because they feel that they can't fight basic school philosophy and assumptions. An organized group of parents would be the best bet, but how could we avoid the expected conflict with the IEP parent group. We have people from other towns moving to our town just because of our special education reputation. There is a basic conflict between full-inclusion and providing the advanced students with what they need. This is not just about getting a better math curriculum. It is about what constitutes a good K-8 education for all kids. "You have to handle small towns differently from the way you handle a city. These people are your neighbors; you're going to be with them a long time." Yes, well, the eighth grade math teacher and two of the school committee members go to my church. They are very nice people. Small town. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
A random joke I heard once, since you mentioned the ex-accountant math teacher: Q: What's the definition of a statistician? A: Someone who's good at math but doesn't have the personality to be an accountant. -- PaulMiller - 11 Jan 2006
An organized group of parents would be the best bet, but how could we avoid the expected conflict with the IEP parent group. As far as IEP parents go, some of them have to have other children who are not only IEP, but bright, as well. This is the parent to find. This parent has to have concerns about their other children's education, I would think. This parent could go toe-to-toe with another IEP parent pretty easily. I know if I hadn't had my other son I would not have been as aware of the slow pacing and impact on the classroom full inclusion can have. Again, I think full inclusion might be the answer for some children who are not so severe, but it's wrong to think it's the only answer out there, just as self-containment was thought to be in earlier times. I'm also pretty sure that my LD son learns the least when he is mainstreamed than when he is with his teachers moving at his own pace. However, he does need the exposure to what other kids his age are doing and saying. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
Doug Junket! You said it. JUNKET! I presume you'll choose a really good wine for the grand opening? You betcha. A life-extending really good wine. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Having talked with some parents of IEP kids, I know that there are big differences of opinion. My feeling is that the full-inclusion ("We don't do pull out.") crowd won out. There are even many parents of non-IEP kids who like the idea where all kids are equal in a common, supportive, learning environment. Then, there are those parents who find their kids are not being challenged. They grumble, complain, make up the difference at home, or send their kids somewhere else. At our schools, ideology collides with reality. The result is that they redefine what constitutes a good K-8 education - and that means only a half year of pre-algebra in eighth grade. This is not true everywhere. In a neighboring town, they have eighth grade courses in Pre-Algebera, Algebra, and Advanced Algebra. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
Steve An organized group of parents would be the best bet, but how could we avoid the expected conflict with the IEP parent group. We have people from other towns moving to our town just because of our special education reputation. I'm sure there's a way around this. A couple of things:
- one is to concentrate on outputs, not inputs.
- this is where Singapore & TIMSS come in
Here in Irvington, I think I've come up with a way to make common cause with the parents of GATE kids. (I'll report back on this.) I've mentioned before that these parents collected 200 signatures on a petition to the school board to keep the math tracks. I didn't sign that petition. I wasn't necessarily opposed to signing it, and I would have signed if I'd seen research that persuaded me the tracks were good for everyone. But Christopher was tracked 'down,' and we were seeing negative effects. I've now talked to the mom who spearheaded that effort, and we'll probably be working together. I hope so. (I think we're all getting together this weekend.) btw, she told me that she would have worded the petition differently if she had been the only person involved. What makes me able to work with a GATE parent is the following ideas, most of which come from Engelmann:
- world-class curriculum for all students
- teach to mastery
- formative assessment
- flexible achievement grouping
oh! I just saw your comment — will read it -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
The result is that they redefine what constitutes a good K-8 education - and that means only a half year of pre-algebra in eighth grade. This is not true everywhere. In a neighboring town, they have eighth grade courses in Pre-Algebera, Algebra, and Advanced Algebra. I think that may be your ticket. Parents as a rule (in my experience) don't like subjecting their kids to killer competition. HOWEVER, parents are actively competitive on their children's behalf themselves. You might want to start using spaced repetition to continually bring up the fact that kids in the neighboring town are getting an education kids in your town aren't. When I went to the PTSA Executive Board meeting, I took the Singapore Math placement test for 6th grade. It was HUGELY effective. Then I stressed that this material was taught to all children — the only difference being the speed with which children mastered the material. Every person there took that seriously, and the former president of the PTSA said that Long Island schools follow the same philosophy. You better believe I'm going to be telling people that Long Island kids are getting something we're not. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
creative idea My sister-in-law, who is a teacher in IL, told me that a lady she knows volunteered to be the school board correspondent for a small, local paper. boy was that a brilliant move I've thought about doing it myself, and maybe I should do it. But I can't stand the thought of going to our board meetings. They last til midnight or beyond. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
IEP parents are rarely happy. I should know. So true. And they don't think that any parent understands unless they have a kid with a problem. IEP parents bond quickly when they meet. Also, many of these parents have had really dumb things said to them by people who don't have kids with problems, and they are often smarting from the sting of such comments. Focusing on the best education for everyone seems the best way to go. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
But that brings up another point. Research into behaviorism always finds that just 'seeing' a behavior or a reality clearly will cause changes. For instance, if you want to start a diet, and you begin by writing down everything you eat, you automatically start eating less. This has been found over and over again. Remarkably, this phenomenon is true even with autistic behaviors. Many's the time I've launched a program of writing down every instance of some behavior we wanted to STOMP OUT, and INSTANTLY those behaviors decreased. This was true at our autism school, too. They could document it. Paul Peterson, I think it is, at Harvard, argues that this is the phenomenon that will cause NCLB to work to some extent. He says that states won't hold schools accountable, won't close them down, etc. BUT, the fact that schools have to publish their data will have an effect. Once everyone can see your failures, your failures start to decrease. SO....if someone were to become the school board correspondent, and were to bring up repetitively the fact that 25% of the town's parents have left the district, that alone will bring pressure on the school board & school administrators. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Susan S Focusing on the best education for everyone seems the best way to go. Right, and I think it can be done. I'll see how things go with the GATE mom.....her beef is that the school is 'teaching to the lowest common denominator' (she didn't say this to me; someone else told me that was her issue). Well, obviously, 'teaching to the lowest common denominator' doesn't sit well with parents like me who have a kid flunking slow-track math in the 4th grade. We can't make the focus 'other people's children.' The focus has to be on the school and its obligation to teach every child a world-class curriculum. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Anyone who has any bright ideas about what I ought to do with my Big Three Minutes tonight, I'm all ears. I would so like to not go to this thing. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I'm contemplating just bringing some hand-outs, distributing them, and leaving. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
tonight
-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
The result is that they redefine what constitutes a good K-8 education - and that means only a half year of pre-algebra in eighth grade. This is not true everywhere. In a neighboring town, they have eighth grade courses in Pre-Algebera, Algebra, and Advanced Algebra. "I think that may be your ticket." This was part of my unsent letter to the editor. It would make an impression, but I don't think it would change anything. This is all about changing fundamental assumptions and expectations. This is also not about GATE versus IEP. I don't like separate GATE or tracking programs. I would perhaps be happier with full-inclusion if the year-to-year expectations were higher and they used better curricula. But, the point I made before is that the spiraling, low expectation curricula go hand-in-hand with full-inclusion. The only way you can track by age is to lower expectations and use some sort of vague Differentiated Learning scheme for the better students. Higher expectations and more rigorous curricula are incompatible with full-inclusion. If you get rid of the dogmatic demand for full-inclusion, then there are no guarantees, but at least you open up an avenue to setting higher year-to-year standards for all. You can perhaps not wait until 3rd grade to enforce mastery of adds and subtracts to 20. You can finally admit that some students shouldn't be automatically moved on to the next grade because they will see the material again. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
If you get rid of the dogmatic demand for full-inclusion, then there are no guarantees, but at least you open up an avenue to setting higher year-to-year standards for all. That's what people think about all Inputs-type reforms. We've been making Inputs reforms for — is it at least 20 years now? Is it more? I no longer believe there is any inputs reform that will change things appreciably. For me, it's time to focus on outputs. It's time to focus on the kids. What have they learned? Did they learn a year's worth material in a year's time? Did they learn it to mastery? Collect data on student achievement (easy enough) and find out whether there's a single school in the country where kids move as fast as they do in one of Engelmann's programs or in Singapore. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I'm repeating myself, but I want to stress this. We're assuming that state tests are 'trivial.' They are trivial, but many bright children in good schools are not managing to do anything more than 'meet standards.' The number of kids in Christopher's grade who made it to 'exceeds standards' last year was very small. Maybe 10%. At present, the state tests are meaningful for normal kids, too. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Apparently, Manhattan has begun to collapse the two meets standards scores into one. At least, that's what the math warriors say. Instead of breaking out the proficient scores into 3s and 4s, you just hear how many kids scored above 2. People think this is probably being done to mask a decline in the number of 4s. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
The number of kids in Christopher's grade who made it to 'exceeds standards' last year was very small. Maybe 10%. That seems low. Especially for a school district like yours. What is the average amount of kids who "exceeds standards" for the average school, I wonder? What is the expectation? It's got to be higher than 10%. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
Based on NAEP results only a few percent of kids are advanced in math. And we know how easy the NAEP exam is. If the NY exam is on par with the NAEP, you'd expect a typical affluent school that is about 2/3 of an SD above the mean to have about 20% of the kids at advanced. This is what you'd predict based on the SES/IQ correlation. So an affluent school performing significantly below this level has problems. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
"At present, the state tests are meaningful for normal kids, too." And the parent/teacher groups think they are meaningful. But they are only hoping for a few points upwards, not any sort of profound change. All of the parents who expect a lot more are teaching at home or have moved their kids elsewhere. For example, in the hopes of improving math scores, our school is testing the use of Everyday Math in third grade (rather than MathLand). Other than this being a really bad way to test a new curriculum, this is not a big improvement. However, they will be thrilled if math scores go up at all. I'm all for output testing, but you have to start with a proper goal; a full course in algebra by eighth grade. We don't even have that. -- SteveH - 11 Jan 2006
Is it like ours where there's a pretty big spread for each of the three levels? The three levels being Below Standards, Meets Standards, and Exceeds Standards. Of course, we of the Special Ed ilk really enjoy it when we get our scores complete with a big exclamation point stamped on it and the words in bold, ACADEMIC WARNING! Yes, thanks for letting us know. We had no idea. Yet another reason why IEP parents are often in bad moods. My other son exceeds standards pretty much across the board, but there are definitely areas where he is quite the average 11-year old, so I'm always a bit surprised that he does as well as he does in areas other than math. It has to catch more than just the very advanced I would think. But I'm not sure. I'll have to go drag some of them out and look them over. -- SusanS - 11 Jan 2006
"Yet another reason why IEP parents are often in bad moods." You said it---we got "meets standards" (much to my surprise!) for 3rd grade (and just barely), but I am expecting things to go downhill rather quickly in the years to come. Of course, it seems my bad mood is determined when I walk in the door, look at the assignment notebook, and see the Everyday Math Journal on the table, or see another extended project which I will end up completing with not very much child involvement except for cutting, pasting, and coloring. -- KathyIggy - 11 Jan 2006
Susan The number of kids in Christopher's grade who made it to 'exceeds standards' last year was very small. Maybe 10%. That seems low. I should be clear about this. I'm talking only about the 5th grade TONYSS test, which is a privately marketed test schools buy if they want to do testing in 'off years.' At least one or two teachers have told me that the ELA section was much harder than it normally is. In Christopher's class of 19 kids, which I'm fairly certain is representative of the entire 5th grade class, only two kids got 4s on both the ELA & the math — because only two kids got 4s on the ELA. It's a feather in Christopher's class, because the other child in his particular class who got a 4 on the ELA is this amazing girl — super, super smart — WHO IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ORGANIZED AND RESPONSBLE. This kid is amazing. I was class mother, and when I called her dad about having her turn in a page for the scrapbook, he said, 'J. handles all her own papers and backpack.' He had no idea what was in her backpack or her notebooks or anything — and he wasn't shirking. SHE COULD HANDLE IT. She was like a 10 year old college student. THAT'S THE ONLY OTHER KID WHO GOT A 4 ON THE ELA. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
(In that class.) -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
I'm not sure what our level of '4s' is. I should check. I wonder if I can check QUICKLY. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Here it is. 4th - grade ELA - 2001 4s: 47% 3s:44% 2s: 9% -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
At least one or two teachers have told me that the ELA section was much harder than it normally is. If the test is normed this is irrelevant. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
You can see that our entire district is 'meeting standards.' But only half of our district is exceeding standards. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Ken The TONYSS are the mystery test. No one knows anything about it; no one tells the parents anything; the teachers know nothing; blah, blah, blah & blah. Is it normed? No one knows. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
8th grade - ELA - 2000-2001 4s 33% 3s 46% 2s 18% 1s 4% It's here What I don't have is the expertise to assess is whether our kids are dropping at the same/slower/faster rate than the rest of NY state. -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Ed's just written a BRILLIANT short statement to deliver at the Forum tonight. I'll post it tomorrow — -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
Ken you'd expect a typical affluent school that is about 2/3 of an SD above the mean to have about 20% of the kids at advanced Would you say that Irvington is significantly above where you'd expect based on NAEP, SES, etc.? Or about right? (I assume we're not below, correct?) -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
You need to know how your state does over all, fit the scores to a normal distribution, then you just need to see how far Irvington's scores are shifted from the mean. they should be about 2/3 to 1 SD above the mean to account for SES effects alone. With a 2/3 sd shift, about half of Irvington studnets would be in the top 25th percentile in any normed test. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
uh...... how would i go about doing that? -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
One way is to find a normal distribution calculator and plug in points depending on your dataset until you get the curve to fit the data. First do it for the state and then do it for your school. Then you just subtract the first mean from the second to determine the shift. -- KDeRosa - 11 Jan 2006
oh cool — fantastic! thanks so much! I probably won't attempt that now; I want to get my act together for tonight..... -- CatherineJohnson - 11 Jan 2006
| WebLogForm | |
|---|---|
| Title: | another student moves to Phase 4 |
| TopicType: | WebLog |
| SubjectArea: | ElementaryMath, SingaporeMath |
| LogDate: | 200601101256 |