22 Sep 2005 - 19:51

question for Susan, grammar diva

I have appointed Susan grammar diva, because....she knows grammar! (And, more to the point, grammar books!)

Susan, what book should I order RIGHT THIS MINUTE?

Christopher got a 63 on his grammar test, because he 'mixed up subject and predicate.'

I can't take it.

He's ELEVEN.

And he doesn't know subject & predicate.

So.....which one of the books you told me about should I get NOW. I need something with MAXIMUM direct instruction, MAXIMUM coherence (if possible), and PRACTICE EXERCISES.

Sigh.


Another commenter once recommended the Shurley grammar series--how involved is this series?

(Does anyone know?)

Can I fit it in with everything else?

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the royal road to grammar:
foreign language! i myself simply would not
learn about "parts of speech" (subject/predicate;
verbs, nouns, adjectives, ... all that)
when it was presented to me in 7th grade
english class. why should i? (i figured)
i can already talk like a native speaker!
but, by golly, when i got to french class
(and, yes, i darn well wish it'd been spanish),
the whole thing made perfect sense.

to seek to "explain" something by making
what's already easy look difficult
is just foolish if there's a good alternative.
and this seems so blindingly clear to me
that i can't understand why it isn't taken for granted.

-- VlorbikDotCom - 22 Sep 2005

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Hi, V!

We have this legendary Latin teacher here in the high school who gets kids so hooked into Latin, word roots, grammar etc. that they're getting 800 on their SATs.

I'm serious.

Apparently Irvington is known for especially high SAT scores, and I've had more than one parent (and more than one high school student) tell me: It's the Latin teacher.

I love it!

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Sep 2005

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You must be speaking of my grammatically correct posts (cough)

Don't you know the teachers just loved v.:)

But he says something that I think is right. Learning basic parts of speech in the 7th grade is a bore for everyone, not just math whizzes. I checked out and never came back.

v also makes a good point about foreign language and grammar, but while he might have learned it simultaneously, I could never understand why I struggled so much with high school Spanish. When I taught my one son grammar and then started Latin 1 with him, it all made sense. I didn't have strong enough grammar skills to be successful at a foreign language. In Latin, as in the other inflected languages, your nouns are declined because word position is determined by the endings, unlike in most English sentences. If you aren't clear on subject, direct object, indirect object, and object of the preposition, you can't read a Latin sentence. When you are speaking an inflected language (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) you are constantly confronted with the application of grammar, unlike in English.

I CAN do it. I CAN do it. (repeat that every night before bed.)

Catherine, this is one of those 15-30 minute type of things you can fit in anywhere. Start at the beginning, though. Have him learn 8 parts of speech, starting with nouns and verbs. Have him memorize the definitions, fast and silly if you have to. Then supply him with lots of sentences to find them. Memorize the helping verbs (23)so he doesn't have to stare at a sentence and wait for it to reveal itself. It's a no-brainer. A sheet with a few sentences everyday. Move through all 8 parts and you'll see where the confusion is. Once he has them down pat, move to direct and indirect objects, followed by predicate adjectives and predicate nouns. He'll know what linking verbs are because you will have already made him memorize the 23 helping verbs. After that, learn parts of a sentence (simple subject, simple predicate, complete sub., complete pred.) and you will have covered grade school.

There's a lot on the Internet for you to print out, so you don't have to work much. Get that book I told you about--I think, Steps to Good Grammar. It's very thorough and coherent.

It really isn't hard. Start with nouns and verbs. I'll try to send you sites that I really liked.

Now, why aren't we homeschooling?

-- SusanS - 22 Sep 2005

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Oh, and this site is great for the slightly foggy adult who's a little unclear about things...

http://www.dailygrammar.com/archive.shtml

-- SusanS - 22 Sep 2005

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If you don't mind a program that is decidely Christian, Rod and Staff Grammar is excellent. Explicit, systematic and it provides lots of practice. The Well Trained Mind highly recommends this program because it is so well done. I would start with book 4 if he hasn't had grammar, because book 5 takes a huge jump in difficulty. They do not have a website but here is the phone number: 606-522-4348 The books are also inexpensive. I have not had a need to use a teacher's manual yet, but I plan to order one for book 5! Oh, I forgot, this program also teaches diagramming and my 2 kids love it!

-- LoneRanger - 22 Sep 2005

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I assert that diagramming sentences (and learning the names of parts of speech and other elements of a very formal approach to grammar) is about as useful as learning partial differential equations. That is, it is crucial to specialists in a particular set of fields, utterly useless to the vast majority of the population, and painfully dull. Oh, and they're both useful for pedantry too.*

The difference is that PDEs are only taught to specialists who might plausibly have a need for the skill, whereas we try to teach useless grammar to everyone. Since proficiency in this is required by the school system, use extensive rote memorization and whatever other trick you can to get your son through the subject with the minimum pain, and only try for real understanding if he shows actual interest in this sort of esoterica.**

I fully support learning other languages as a way of better learning your own language, but I'm entirely unconvinced that a comparison of formal names for parts of speech is a good way to learn anything if you aren't a professional linguist.

* If you need to diagram a sentence to determine whether it is grammatically correct, you need to rewrite it so that you can determine this without a diagram. Reading well-written prose (fiction or non-fiction) is a much better way to learn to write idiomatically than sentence diagramming.

** I should perhaps mention that I write for a living and have been a member of our corporate style committee, and that I read linguistics blogs and grammar books for entertainment. I do not say this as one who hates the subject, though I certainly hated it in Jr. High.

-- DougSundseth - 22 Sep 2005

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I think the Rod and Staff sounds perfect for you, Catherine. You need something all together, ready to go.

Doug, You do make an interesting point and you are definitely the professional here. I agree that not belaboring the point is pretty critical which is why I wish they'd teach it more thoroughly in the early grades and spare the older kids. Of course, by then you need to already have some knowledge of basic grammar so that you at least have a point of reference when your teacher starts telling you what's wrong with your paper.

Sentence diagramming is just a tool, and again, one that can be overdone quickly, I think. It's just a visual picture of a sentence, but it does show that everything has its place which might be useful to the younger set. Susan Wise Bauer, who teaches writing at William and Mary, likes to pass out her student's papers and have them diagram their clunkiest sentence. Apparently, it is pretty revealing with some students unable to diagram various phrases or clauses because they don't seem to actually modify anything else in the sentence.

-- SusanS - 22 Sep 2005

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"I assert that diagramming sentences (and learning the names of parts of speech and other elements of a very formal approach to grammar) is about as useful as learning partial differential equations."

As Susan says, it can be overdone. But a basic level of understanding of parts of speech is helpful to write grammatically.

I see constant confusion about their, they're, even there. Other mixups are its and it's, you're and your, whose and who's. Being able to recognize a verb and noun helps to distinguish between, say, make up and makeup (or make-up as it used to be known). I see now that sign on has become signon in the computer world. (I am leaving out quotations marks on purpose).

-- CharlesH - 23 Sep 2005

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Catherine, Susan, v. et al -- just a completely trivial thought from someone who never knew Latins were infected. ;-)

I learned the basic parts of speech when I was a kid by playing Mad Libs, and Ben loves them too. As a result, he at least knows what the basic parts of speech are -- prepositions, adverbs, adjectives, etc.. Does C know the parts of speech that one would learn just from doing Mad Libs? If not, that might be a fun way for him to get started.

Another book I found fun, and it might be enjoyable for a slightly older kid -- "Woe is I".

-- CarolynJohnston - 23 Sep 2005

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Haven't read through this entire thread yet (aaackk!) but I'm thinking Rod & Staff.....

-- CatherineJohnson - 23 Sep 2005

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Now I have to figure out where the heck I put Susan's list. I know I had the books in my Amazon cart.....

Here are Rod & Staff & Shurley Grammar on Favorite books

-- CatherineJohnson - 23 Sep 2005

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I don't even know what Mad Libs are!

-- CatherineJohnson - 23 Sep 2005

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I also love one in particular--*Steps to Good Grammar* by Genevieve Walberg Schaefer (how's that for a name.) This one is good for the rusty adult who needs the answers right there. It flows well and doesn't dwell too long on anything. It's thorough. It's got diagramming, too, for those wishing to return to the 1950's.

-- SusanS - 23 Sep 2005

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I'm adding Steps to Good Grammar to the list. I have to find the rest--

I need to take the Study Skills course Christopher's in, obviously.

-- CatherineJohnson - 23 Sep 2005

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We are using Ridgewood Grammar (by Educational Publishing Services) and it starts with identifying the subject and predicates and diagramming sentences. You can see pdf samples of it online at www.epsbooks.com. My 9 yo doesn't balk at it - so I'm happy.

Hake grammar is also frequently recommended. Sample pdf's here: http://www.grammar.cc/?content=lookinside

-- NicksMama - 14 May 2006

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NicksMama^?,

Those look great! Perfect levels for mine. Thanks!

-- SusanS - 14 May 2006

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How can you be 40-something and not know what Mad Libs are? We played them as kids, too, and it was pre-junior high, so we must have already learned the parts of speech by then.

Basically, you have a paragraph or short story from which someone has removed about 10 words of varying parts of speech. Person A asks person B for a singular noun, a color, a number, etc. Person B doesn't know what the story is, but provides the words. Person A writes person B's words in the blanks, and voila! you have a silly story. (Person A can also be a computer program.)

Mad Libs are available at any big box bookstore. The link above has links to Amazon & BN.

-- GoogleMaster - 14 May 2006

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BTW, I know I have recommended the Warriner's grammar series before.

-- GoogleMaster - 14 May 2006

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I had a teacher twice at about age 7 and 8 who tried to teach me grammar. It didn't take, as I didn't understand that language could be arranged differently from how English is and thus dismissed grammar as academic irrelevancies. I only understood English grammar when I took Latin. Chris might be having the same problem.

-- TracyW - 14 May 2006

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How can you be 40-something and not know what Mad Libs are? We played them as kids, too, and it was pre-junior high, so we must have already learned the parts of speech by then.

THAT'S MY QUESTION!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 May 2006