Comments

One thing I've been putting a lot of thought into is how to teach to mastery in an environment where I'm on a strict schedule and have very limited time. I bet Black and Wiliam weren't thinking of people who have to jam what would be a whole year of algebra in high school into a semester.

Still, I have decided, there will be quizzes at least weekly next semester.

-- PaulMiller - 06 Dec 2005

Why do you have to teach 1 year of algebra in a semester?

-- LoneRanger - 06 Dec 2005

This semester I gave twenty quizzes in calculus (the best 10 counted), and I'm thinking of giving quizzes every class next time I teach something from the algebra / precalc / calc sequence. Next time I'm going to make them VERY short, 3-5 minutes, and give them at the exact beginning of class. My bet is that the instructional face-time lost will trade well with increased studying.

(I will let someone else tackle the sticky issue of why college algebra has become the moster that it is.)

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 06 Dec 2005

One thing I've been putting a lot of thought into is how to teach to mastery in an environment where I'm on a strict schedule and have very limited time. I bet Black and Wiliam weren't thinking of people who have to jam what would be a whole year of algebra in high school into a semester.

Still, I have decided, there will be quizzes at least weekly next semester.

wow, Paul

can I have Christopher come learn math with you?

if he's still in one piece by the time he gets there?

You, too, Rudbeckia

Ed's been thinking about the same thing, and he's been making similar adjustments—mostly asking for more & shorter essays (I think—I'll check with him) so he can make sure his students are in fact learning the material, progressing, etc.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

This semester I gave twenty quizzes in calculus (the best 10 counted), and I'm thinking of giving quizzes every class next time I teach something from the algebra / precalc / calc sequence.

Fantastic. (At least, that sounds fantastic to me.)

To me, this is a professor giving her students a gift. You've transferred a lot of.....power?.....to them; you're making tests & grades into something far more informational, or formative, than something evaluative and disheartening.

I love what you've done.

Next time I'm going to make them VERY short, 3-5 minutes, and give them at the exact beginning of class. My bet is that the instructional face-time lost will trade well with increased studying.

I hope you'll keep us posted about how this goes—whether you see it working, whether students are able to be aware early on that they haven't grasped and/or mastered a concept, and so on.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

When I took algebra (in 8th grade), we had 5 minute quizzes every day. They covered what we were supposed to read in the book the night before, and were worth 5 points while the daily homework was worth 2 points. They were so short that we took them on index cards - I don't think they included problems to work out, but I'm not sure. Definitely encouraged reading the book. RH - I say go for the daily quizzes.

-- StephanieO - 06 Dec 2005

Why do I have to teach 1 year of algebra in 1 semester? Easy, I'm not teaching it to high schoolers learning it for the first time; I'm teaching it to university students, mostly freshmen, who didn't learn it the first time.

As for sending Christopher to learn math with me, I have my criticisms of this course which are nothing I can do anything about. For example, the book for the course and the tests really don't correllate well at all in terms of the types of problems you'll see in homework versus on the test. Now, I don't mean there's a novel problem here and there on the test... I mean they're mostly not alike.

This is because the tests are multiple choice. They're good multiple choice tests in the sense that it's impossible to recover the answer based on plugging in the answer choices most of the time. But, the way these types of questions have to be written makes them difficult to parse and understand, which is not testing math skills, it's testing reading skills.

The reason I can't change any of this is that A), I'm a TA, and B), I'm teaching this as part of the massive remedial math program we have here at Western. There are at least 15 sections of about 40 students apiece just in the course I teach, and there are 2 other courses in the program.

-- PaulMiller - 06 Dec 2005

The reason I can't change any of this is that A), I'm a TA, and B), I'm teaching this as part of the massive remedial math program we have here at Western. There are at least 15 sections of about 40 students apiece just in the course I teach, and there are 2 other courses in the program.

You know what this reminds me of?

Doctors in HMOs.

They get 10 minutes a patient. Period.

(It's 10 minutes, right? Or is it 15?)

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

It's definitely something like that. The situation is not unique to Western, though. I'd be willing to bet that most colleges and universities that have remedial math do things this way, trying to jam a full year's worth of high school math into a semester at the college level. What's even worse is that I only see these students around 3 hours a week, whereas their high school teachers would see them around 5.

-- PaulMiller - 06 Dec 2005

I'm sure you're right.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

There is also a fair amount of tradition and suspicion mixed into some of these remedial courses. Way back when,at least in some parts of the country, when kids took less math in high school, some of these courses now considered "remedial" (of the college algebra / precalc variety) were not remedial: these were the standard first college math course for students coming from high schools that didn't teach these topics. These were more likely to be well-prepared students without much emotional baggage relating to math.

Now that this material is routinely taught in high schools, these courses are populated by students who didn't get it the first time around.

It's still packed into one semester because the students are anxious to take the math class that "counts" for their major but which has the algebra course as a prereq. They don't want to spend a full year getting caught up. And the university would probably be quite reluctant to pay for it: it might be viewed as a scheme by the math department to increase the number of enrolled credit hours and/or the number of TAs.

On other matters...

I like my many-quiz method. Students find a low quiz score to be noteworthy but not devestating. (Some are a bit too blase, though.) I also prefer grading quizzes to homeworks, and students take comments more seriously on a quiz than they do on a homework assignment. So this gives me an opportunity to write notes like, "On a test you would need to ----- or else I'll have to take off points."

I also like group-work for a similar reason. I know that a lot of people hate it, but I find it valuable. (Working in a 1-person group is allowed.) When my students work on problems during class, this gives me a chance to field-test problems (and the wording of the directions) before using them on a test. Sometimes on a problem-solving day, I will offer bonus points for students to present problems at the board (volunteer basis only); these come with the catch that I will ask questions and make corrections as the student works the problem. My groupwork (non-lecture) days also give me a chance to talk to my students without writing them notes. I can tell struggling students where I think their problems are and what I suggest for fixing them.

And tying this all together and unifying the current situation with college math, I'll put in a plug for one of my former employers, Hobart & William Smith Colleges. When Christopher is exploring colleges, he should take a look at HWS; I think a school of that sort might suit him well. (Of course if the $$$$ is an issue, then I'll have to recommend Geneseo.)

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 06 Dec 2005

There is also a fair amount of tradition and suspicion mixed into some of these remedial courses. Way back when,at least in some parts of the country, when kids took less math in high school, some of these courses now considered "remedial" (of the college algebra / precalc variety) were not remedial: these were the standard first college math course for students coming from high schools that didn't teach these topics. These were more likely to be well-prepared students without much emotional baggage relating to math.

Now that this material is routinely taught in high schools, these courses are populated by students who didn't get it the first time around.

Interesting.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

I like my many-quiz method. Students find a low quiz score to be noteworthy but not devastating. (Some are a bit too blase, though.) I also prefer grading quizzes to homeworks, and students take comments more seriously on a quiz than they do on a homework assignment. So this gives me an opportunity to write notes like, "On a test you would need to ----- or else I'll have to take off points."

I'm glad to hear you say this, because that's exactly what I thought.

To me, being able to count the best ten, automatically provides incentive and disincentive in a nice balance.

The blase part is bad, of course.

One point I have been able to make around here—that everyone gets probably including even Christopher—is that you can't miss any material in a course.

You can't 'eat' your C or D or F or whatever on a test or two and move on.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

This is something I didn't know going in, btw.

I think all math teachers & concerned citizens universally should convey this message to non-math types.

That's another thing: I find that once I make this point to a parent who's not oriented towards math, it takes.

I suspect we all know this about math at some level, but just haven't thought about it.

When I talk to people about math being foundational or hierarchical, it bumps that implicit knowledge up into consciousness.

Both Ed and Christopher know that I will now have to re-teach and re-test Chapters 2 and 3 (Chapter 1, too, frankly).

We can't just say, Oh well, we'll try harder next time.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

I also like group-work for a similar reason. I know that a lot of people hate it, but I find it valuable. (Working in a 1-person group is allowed.) When my students work on problems during class, this gives me a chance to field-test problems (and the wording of the directions) before using them on a test.

I think that's not only good, but important and even essential.

I just talked to our 'Advocate' for Jimmy (talk about serendipity; this is a Someone Upstairs Is Looking Out For You Moment—she told me exactly what to do about Christopher, and also said we can probably get him out of the class).

She said the head of her agency always says, "American teachers don't understand they're not a tour guide for the curriculum."

What you're doing is NOT BEING A TOUR GUIDE.

I'd call what you're doing FIELD TESTING (maybe Engelmann would use that term, maybe not; but it's certainly something in the realm).

Good for you.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

I'll put in a plug for one of my former employers, Hobart & William Smith Colleges. When Christopher is exploring colleges, he should take a look at HWS; I think a school of that sort might suit him well. (Of course if the $$$$ is an issue, then I'll have to recommend Geneseo.)

What are these places doing right?

(I take your word for it; I'm interested to hear more.)

Money is an issue, ESPECIALLY SEEING AS HOW I HAVE TO PAY MY MONSTER IRVINGTON UNION FREE SCHOOL DISTRICT PROPERTY TAXES, and Christopher can go to NYU free if he gets in.

Do you know anything about NYU?

But please tell us more about HWS & Geneseo, too, if you have the time.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

Rudbeckia:

Do you have any thoughts about the young woman I mentioned? (I can find the thread if you didn't see it.)

It sounds like she's being completely undone by huge, massive writing projects (the college calls itself a writing-based curriculum or something like that). Her mom said to me, 'She didn't learn to write well enough in high school.'

I question that, only because I think I'm seeing a lot of 'bad writing behavior' going on out there.....I can't give evidence for this, but I'm getting the feeling that the 'Project Mentality,' once you get to the college level, translates into whopping big Writing Projects.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Dec 2005

I don't know enough about what's going on with writing projects to make any intelligent comments.

What I liked about HWS is that it has a dedicated faculty. There aren't many part-timers or adjuncts or other transient types compared to other schools I've worked. So there is a goodly amount of stability. This leads to a lot of experienced faculty, and experienced faculty tend to be more productive in the classroom.

Also it is VERY clear that students and their education is a high priority.

My job wasn't tenure-track (I was a sabbatical replacement), so I don't know much about the research pressures, but my impression was that the school favored what I term Scholarship as much as universities favor Research. It seemed much more in balance: important work with big ideas that supported one's teaching -- instead of teaching being something that took one's time away from research.

I don't know anything about NYU.

In terms of the SUNY schools, the larger University Centers can provide a top-notch education to a student who is confident and independent and who can skillfully navigate the system, but it takes a lot of savvy. At Albany, Binghamton, Buffalo, and Stony Brook, it would be easy to enroll in a course where the instructor didn't have teaching as a top priority. One can get an excellent education at these schools but probably not by chance.

On the other hand, Geneseo is trying VERY hard to be the small and personal campus. I wouldn't be surprised if NYS contemplated trying to make it the "honors" campus.

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 06 Dec 2005

I don't even know what Geneseo is.

Is it part of the SUNY system?

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Dec 2005

Yes, they have dropped the acronym SUNY from the public names of most of the campuses. Geneseo = SUNY Geneseo.

Random factoid (before I disappear into a cloud of office hours, reviews, calming of panic, and then grading): if you want a statistical profile of a college/university (like graduation rates, etc.) search their web page for the Office of Institutional Research and look for the Common Data Set.

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 07 Dec 2005

before I disappear into a cloud of office hours, reviews, calming of panic, and then grading

I love it!

oh boy

calming of panic

I'm positive school—the whole thing, start to finish—could be LESS PANIC RIDDEN

(I certainly experienced beaucoup panic when I was in college...)

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Dec 2005

Thanks for the factoid; I'll get that posted up front and PUT SOME PLACE people will find it....

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Dec 2005