CharacterEducation < Kitchen

24 Jan 2006 - 21:08

character ed

One question: how much is this costing me?

While I'm on the subject of what things cost, the district has also invested in edline.net, a website schools can use to post homework assignments, quizzes, tests, etc.

That sounds like a great idea, and I'm happy to pay for it.

Only problem: the teachers aren't using it. Not to speak of.

Here, for instance, are all of Ms. Kahl's homework entries for the year thus far:

This is a teacher who's up for tenure this year.

The good news is that there's more on edline now than there was last fall. Christopher's teachers are getting tests and quizzes entered. It's a good thing, too, because I just checked edline & discovered that Christopher has a Spanish test tomorrow.

Christopher has no idea he has a Spanish test tomorrow.

So let me pause and say thank you, Mrs. Romano because not only is the test entered, the review sheet has been posted, too.

YAY MRS. ROMANO!

So, all in all, edline is a Good Thing even without the teachers using it for anything other than tests.

But it's not good enough. Especially seeing as how this is one more thing to pay for.

Plus, of course, edline has now produced its first time-eating complication, which was inevitable.

First of all, Mrs. Roth has not been removed from edline as Christopher's ELA teacher.

This means I have no idea what the assignment schedule is in Mrs. Kozak's class (nor do I know how to spell her name), because I can't access Mrs. Kozak's schedule.

Also, I can't get Mrs. Kozak's email address, because when I logged onto the regular Irvington web site, I found that Edline has apparently eaten the email directory:

Error
There is no page on Edline with the specified URL: https://www.edline.net/pages/Irvington_UFSD/Email_Directory

So, naturally, I have now spent time dredging up the guidance counselor's email address from an old email I sent to him, back when I could access the email directory on the regular school website; then I had to email my concerns to him along with a request for Mrs. Kozak's email; then I emailed the head of the school board, who maintains the website, to ask him what's up; then I called the school to see if they could just give me her email over the phone, which meant I had to spend several minutes listening to the recorded menu of options. Then there was no one in the office to take my call.

So....I don't want to buy any more STUFF for the district.

We have enough stuff already.

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Jan 2006

Back to main page.

Comments

After entering a comment, users can login anonymously as KtmGuest (password: guest) when prompted.
Please consider registering as a regular user.
Look here for syntax help.

snort

-- CarolynJohnston - 24 Jan 2006

Ransom-note typography in its pure form: 21 words (counting each letter in the abbreviation separately, arguably only 17 words), four fonts, four colors.

And what's with the weird spacing in "I.M. S."?

Is that "Irvington Middle ... ummm ... School"? I mean, they seem a bit ambivalent about actually teaching, but you'd think they could fake it better than that.

It's good to know that they're feeding their teachers well enough, though, at least from the evidence of the logo. Fashion sense ... well, not so much.

-- DougSundseth - 24 Jan 2006

yeah

snort and double snort

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Jan 2006

And notice how you can't tell whether they're putting the last piece in the puzzle in or taking it out. Freudian slip

-- KDeRosa - 24 Jan 2006

That piece is the wrong shape anyway. I'm sure that has a deeper meaning, too, but can't be bothered to figure it out right now.

(I seem to be in a really snarky mood.)

(Ooh, metacognition.)

(Oooh, meta-metacognition.)

(Ooooh, recursive algorithm.)

8-)

-- DougSundseth - 24 Jan 2006

I'm trying to figure out whether this is a teacher problem, a boy problem, or something specific to Christopher.

Does Christopher have Spanish class every day? (If only every other day, then maybe the teacher said something on Monday, and it fell out of his busy head already. That happens to me all the time.) Did his teacher say anything in class today about tomorrow's test? Is he experiencing the zoning out, tuning out, giving up that the BoyTrouble articles are talking about?

Are all of the boys (boys, not girls) in his classes having the same issues with losing-things-in-backpacks, forgot-to-bring-the-book-home-the-night-before-the-test, did-not-know-there-WAS-a-test?

This must be very very VERY frustrating for you.

-- GoogleMaster - 24 Jan 2006

Google Master

THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS CHRISTOPHER IS THE WORST

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Jan 2006

He may not be the worst.

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Jan 2006

I have a horrible feeling we're looking at a) more vision therapy and/or b) a trip to the shrink.

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Jan 2006

The problem with asking a psychiatrist to assess him for A.D.D. is that there's some evidence that taking ritalin when you're young is connected to depression when you're older (I've forgotten the mechanism).

Christopher already gets blue in the winter, and has since he was little.

So I don't want to do anything that could tip him more towards depression.

I have to say, just writing this, medication & assessment are 2 separate issues. Our psychiatrist, Dr. Hollander, is a genius. I think I've just crossed the line to thinking we should have him take a look.

Ed is SO not there.

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Jan 2006

The "are all of the boys..." question was not rhetorical, BTW. It may be that all or most of the boys ARE having the same difficulties, but their parents are thinking "well, that's just the way boys are".

-- GoogleMaster - 24 Jan 2006

Which of course is an unacceptable cop-out.

-- GoogleMaster - 24 Jan 2006

"Christopher already gets blue in the winter, and has since he was little."

That almost sounds like S.A.D. (Seasonal Affective Disorder) to me. (Note that I'm not a doctor of any stripe, nor have I even played one on the radio.)

If it is, I understand the standard treatment to be bright lights. (Which conveniently seem to help other things.)

-- DougSundseth - 24 Jan 2006

This gets me back into serious Engelmann territory, however.

If Christopher does 'qualify' for an A.D.D. diagnosis, he didn't come down with it overnight.

He would have had it all through grade school, where he did well.

If the Middle School had a 'teach to mastery' philosophy and practice, he'd be doing well now, too.

As things stand, if he is A.D.D. we'll have to go the whole 504C route — and that doesn't work, either.

My friend J., whose son is spacy as all get out & has a formal diagnosis AND meds, is having a horrific time.

She just had her Team Meeting to try to get them to do what they need to do.

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Jan 2006

Catherine- At open house you were made aware that the only Edline mandate for the 2005-2006 school year was that teachers post tests and long term projects. You might have also found this out by reading the mailings sent home or by having rational discussions with physical human beings.

I've been reading your website daily since finding out about its existence. While you have some interesting insights (some are spot on and some miss by quite a margin), I am amazed that such a powerful and articulate woman stands behind a web interface.

Why not work from within the system? Might I suggest going to general PTSA meetings to influence the culture or running for a position on the school board. We all have a right to express ourselves in whatever community we see fit, but your words are ignorant of a larger problem.

Who do you belive is responsible for our current school culture? If you know there is a problem but your only cure is to rant about it, you are ineffective. Please give me some mirror time tonight tonight because you are only making it worse.

Doug- you're a fool if you think the IMS teachers are ambivalent in any way. Imagine getting a degree in a subject so you can, after getting another degree, teach. You know you won't be compensated immediately in any way to justify your expenditure of time and money, but you don't care. You get a job in a good school district and you commute either a great distance or from a tiny apartment. It's cool because you love your job.

Steadily, a handful of central and building level adminstrators shuffle through your life. All they care about is their next job. Irvington is simply a stepping stone to the next level in their rat race lives. You get your tenure after three principals and two superintendants.

Since you began teaching, you have faced more programs than Catherine could even imagine in her most cynical moment as a helicopter parent. You very quickly learn not to believe in any program that is prescribed.

While this is going on, the state and federal governments decide that testing will make schools better. You love the idea of standards, but you worry that the data will only be used to take the soul out of what was once a wonderful learning community. It turns out you are correct.

Skip the rest of the story and arrive in the present. Irvington lost countless teachers in the past five years, we have built a 50 million dollar school designed by Captain Ahab chasing a consulting job, and we have had tremendous turn over in all levels of administration. Irvington is a community that has lost its identity and purpose. Even the New York Times writes features about us (who can forget the city divided piece?).

All-
Trade unionists do not become teachers. Teachers become trade unionists.

Remember as you criticize the teachers who sacrifice every day to teach your children that they are doing what you don't.

Think about the harm you are doing and compare that to the positive influence people with your analytical, research, and writing skills can bring to a school district.

Finally, keep in mind tha your son will read this blog. He will probably read it before you want him to. That is the way things work in communities like ours. Do you want him to interpret you as the mother who defended his right to the best education possible or as the crazy woman who could only get her way by bullying civil servants?

For what its worth, I agree with you about Edline and character education. We should be balancing our books, not instituting new programs on a revloving basis.

Thank you for time.

-- KtmGuest - 24 Jan 2006

We are reading some good books at work that might be relevant. They are intended for managers and leaders, or people who strive to be good managers and leaders, but some of the lessons are relevant to students as well.

One of the lessons was: You can't do a good job on anything if you are trying to do too many things at once. Ditto if you are thinking about too many things at once. Write them down on a prioritized list and get them out of your head so you can concentrate on the one thing that you're working on right now. Then revisit the list and pick up the next item.

Too often we let "thinking about the things I'm not doing right now" distract us from the one thing we should be doing.

The two books we're reading are Execution: The Discipline of Getting Things Done and Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity.

-- GoogleMaster - 24 Jan 2006

Do you want him to interpret you as the mother who defended his right to the best education possible or as the crazy woman who could only get her way by bullying civil servants?

KtmGuest^? - I think you may be making a false dichotomy argument here. Why shouldn't Catherine be both? :)

(Incidentally I am the daughter of a woman who was a school teacher herself, headed the Board of Trustees for our local primary school, and frequently got her way by 'bullying' civil servants. Mum really hit the roof one time because one of my brother's English teachers gave him too high a grade on his mock exams - he hadn't answered the actual question and mum eventually 'bullied' the teacher into giving him a zero. That's how you can be defending your son's right to a good education by 'bullying' civil servants.)

-- TracyW - 24 Jan 2006

oops

And DON'T LOSE THE LIST!

-- GoogleMaster - 24 Jan 2006

KTm Guest

At open house you were made aware that the only Edline mandate for the 2005-2006 school year was that teachers post tests and long term projects. You might have also found this out by reading the mailings sent home or by having rational discussions with physical human beings.

I am aware of this, and I object to it.

As to dealing with issues within the system, if you're reading the website, you're aware that I do in fact work within the system. Ongoingly & continually.

This website, btw, isn't primarily about Irvington.

It's about teaching math to our kids.

Irvington came up as a result of our experience with Mrs. Roth.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Actually, I'll belabor the edline point.

In fact, as I was told directly by Scott & Raina, many of the teachers are resistant to using the website.

The reason teachers aren't using it for everything is that the administration hopes to bring teachers on board through persuasion, not through 'orders' given top-down.

The thinking is that the early adopters will bring along the later adopters.

I strongly object to the fact that teachers are taking their time getting homework assignments posted on the site.

I certainly understand Scott & Raina's position. Administrators can't usually give orders flat out; they need buy in.

But speaking as the person paying for edline, I object to the fact that our teachers haven't jumped on the opportunity to put their homework assignments on the website Irvington taxpayers have made available to them.

Mr. Levine, at the Main Street School, actually went to the length of creating his own website last year, where he could post all of his class assignments.

Good for him.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Please give me some mirror time tonight tonight because you are only making it worse.

I wouldn't bet on that.

There've been changes already.

Ed and I are responsible.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

I'll not address the issue of teacher compensation here, except to say that I disagree categorically; my reasons for that opinion have been adequately addressed elsewhere, and recapitulating them here isn't useful. If you wish to make an argument, you'll have to adduce actual evidence that teachers are undercompensated.

"...you're a fool if you think the IMS teachers are ambivalent in any way."

I just checked, and at no point did I make a comment about the dedication of any teacher or group of teachers. My comment was, "Is that "Irvington Middle ... ummm ... School"? I mean, they seem a bit ambivalent about actually teaching, but you'd think they could fake it better than that."

Please note that the antecedent of "they" is "Irvington Middle ... ummm ... School". If you wish to believe that this is directed only at teachers, I can hardly prevent you, but it was neither my intent nor my actual comment.

The school isn't teaching. It doesn't matter to the student or the parents of that student whether that is because of the teachers' lack of skills or dedication, administrators' incompetence, statewide mandate, or lousy curriculum except insofar as the student or parent can effect change in that area. Each of those can be a place to look for problems, but the problem of student and parent is that the school system isn't providing the necessary product.

Now, all that said, I've certainly seen evidence that some teachers are part of the problem; would you care to dispute that? If so, you'll need to rebut quite a bit of evidence provided here over a period of months.

At any rate, I think you wouldn't find anyone here unwilling to support a course of action that would solve the problem that you (our school systems in general, or IMS in specific) have. "Throw more money", is unlikely to be received well, though.

"It's not my fault", impresses me not one whit more. Would you accept that from the waitstaff at your a restaurant? My response is, "I don't care whose fault it is; fix my problem."

-- DougSundseth - 25 Jan 2006

ktm guest

One last thing.

Comments like this one are out of bounds:

Doug- you're a fool if you think the IMS teachers are ambivalent in any way.

If you've been reading the site, you should be aware that we follow a set of tacit rules.

These are:

no name-calling ever

maintain a civil tone

address the other person's argument, logic, and evidence, not the person's motives, personality, or behavior

keep a sense of humor

You've pretty much broken every one of them.

If you want to visit, you're welcome.

But you'll need to observe the same code the rest of us do.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Ktm Guest

Do you want him to interpret you as the mother who defended his right to the best education possible or as the crazy woman who could only get her way by bullying civil servants?

oh goodness!

that's an easy one!

I definitely want him to interpret me as the crazy woman who got her way

I say this seriously, though I should probably append a smiley-face

I want Christopher to know — and I want the school to know — that I'll do anything I need to do to protect my children from harm.

That should go without saying.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Google Master.

One of the lessons was: You can't do a good job on anything if you are trying to do too many things at once. Ditto if you are thinking about too many things at once. Write them down on a prioritized list and get them out of your head so you can concentrate on the one thing that you're working on right now. Then revisit the list and pick up the next item.

Well this is the problem.

I'm not organized to begin with, though I work at it.

And then, on top of that, I'm always in the too-many-projects mode.

Always, always, always.

ONE of my too-many-projects is to re-read GETTING THINGS DONE (that's not a joke; I've been talking to Carolyn about it).

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

It's good to know that they're feeding their teachers well enough, though, at least from the evidence of the logo. Fashion sense ... well, not so much.

gosh, I just noticed that

I would like character education to go away

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Today, in study skills, Christopher did a huge Character Education packet called 'What I see in you.'

All the kids had to fill out nice things about each other.

Christopher doesn't know how to

read a textbook and take notes

take notes on a lecture

study for a test

assess whether he needs to study for a test

But they spent their 42 minutes filling out a Character Education form.

Apparently they're going to start learning note-taking, now, though.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

That almost sounds like S.A.D. (Seasonal Affective Disorder) to me. (Note that I'm not a doctor of any stripe, nor have I even played one on the radio.)

yeah

I've been worried about that all along

Even when he was tiny — 2 & 3 — he would have a strong downturn in the winter.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Christopher doesn't know how to

read a textbook and take notes

take notes on a lecture

study for a test

assess whether he needs to study for a test

But they spent their 42 minutes filling out a Character Education form.

To me, this looks like more evidence for Guest to rebut.

-- DougSundseth - 25 Jan 2006

I just don't know.

I'm assuming the boys are in worse shape, and Scott (our principal) said that boys do worse in middle school — though he told Ed that the girls are having more problems socially.

But with this last test I'm pretty distressed.

Christopher got a 68 & the class average was 93.

That's terrible.

Of course, the problem could certainly be me.

The other mothers seem to be way more organized than I am.....

My friend J., who I mentioned above, is A.D.D. herself, and she spent all last year saying she just wasn't going to be able to carry her A.D.D. son through middle school, because she didn't have the organizational skills herself.

I feel like that's me.

otoh, if Christopher's real problem is Disorganized Mother, that's fixable.

I'm not organized by nature, but I do know how to do it, and I do know how to monitor whether I'm doing it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Oh my. "What I see in you." Sounds like:

-- GoogleMaster - 25 Jan 2006

Doug

yeah.....There's just no reason to be doing character education in Study Skills.

all

Now that I've recovered from the shock of finding an actual Irvington person writing a Comment — & a hostile one to boot, NOT TO MENTION CALLING DOUG A BAD NAME! I have to say that ktm guest has written an interesting post.

Assuming that he/she is an Irvington teacher, his her experience is a lot to take in:

a handful of central and building level adminstrators shuffle through your life. All they care about is their next job. Irvington is simply a stepping stone to the next level in their rat race lives. You get your tenure after three principals and two superintendants. [high turn-over in the administration is very true]

Since you began teaching, you have faced more programs than Catherine could even imagine in her most cynical moment as a helicopter parent. [that's a great line! the horror is, I'm sure it's true!] You very quickly learn not to believe in any program that is prescribed. [I'm not quite sure what this means.....does 'program' mean 'curriculum'....I'm assuming it means something like that, and I'm horrified]

You love the idea of standards, but you worry that the data will only be used to take the soul out of what was once a wonderful learning community. It turns out you are correct. [I wouldn't argue with ktm guest on this one, EXCEPT to say that I personally don't get this sense from any of the Irvington teachers or administrators I know — NEVERTHELESS, ktm guest could be right. Easily.]

Irvington lost countless teachers in the past five years [ed.: absolutely true]

we have built a 50 million dollar school designed by Captain Ahab chasing a consulting job [I assume this is a veiled reference to our previous Superintendent. As far as I can tell, a number of Irvington teachers think he wasn't on the up-and-up. What I've been told, by our Ground Zero friend, is that Irvington hired the same contractor who does all the school building in Westchester. Our Ground Zero friend disapproves, but his complaint is about the quality of the work.]

Irvington is a community that has lost its identity and purpose. [I've had a long-time Irvington teacher, who's terrific, say exactly the same thing.]

Even the New York Times writes features about us [true! (didn't I write a post about this?? yes, I did)]

It's always worse than you think.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Google Master

WE SPEND COUNTLESS HOURS WATCHING BARNEY AROUND HERE

good lord

I just read Christopher's page in the Character packet.

They were supposed to write 'Positive' about each child.

Here are Christopher's:

'is really good at soccer'

'is really funny and makes me lagh

hair is really cool and is good in ELA

has a really good feature arcticle

is really smart and funny

is smart and good at basketball and good at ELA

That's his spelling, not my typing.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Google Master

I'm trying to figure out whether this is a teacher problem, a boy problem, or something specific to Christopher.

sorry — just saw this

He has it every other day, and it's been his worst subject — your comment makes me realize this has to be why.

I haven't been able to figure it out at all, and haven't even tried, because I've been so overwhelmed by math.

He HAS been able to remember all of his tests in his regular classes, except, of course, for today's Science test, which is what precipitated the latest Core Meltdown.

In any case, being able to remember tests in his regular classes has to be 'the test' in this case.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Tracy

Incidentally I am the daughter of a woman who was a school teacher herself, headed the Board of Trustees for our local primary school, and frequently got her way by 'bullying' civil servants. Mum really hit the roof one time because one of my brother's English teachers gave him too high a grade on his mock exams - he hadn't answered the actual question and mum eventually 'bullied' the teacher into giving him a zero. That's how you can be defending your son's right to a good education by 'bullying' civil servants.

I love it!

It's true.

For parents, school is politics.

War by other means.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

And notice how you can't tell whether they're putting the last piece in the puzzle in or taking it out. Freudian slip

tee-hee

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Block scheduling (M-W-F, T-Th) classes may work well from a standpoint of:

Fewer books to take home each night
More time to teach in depth and with more repetitions

But they obviously do not work well from a "remembering what we did 48 hours ago" standpoint.

-- GoogleMaster - 25 Jan 2006

oh!

that's what block scheduling is??

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

I had a comment that got deleted. I've not recovered it, in case the deletion was intentional.

I didn't think it stepped over the line, but if it did, please accept my apology.

-- DougSundseth - 25 Jan 2006

One page, neon paper, pre-lined (wide lines).

-- GoogleMaster - 25 Jan 2006

I had a comment that got deleted. I've not recovered it, in case the deletion was intentional.

I'll go find it!

I think sometimes when people post at the same time things get blacked out.

I've lost comments, too.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Yep... I just lost this one:

Sounds like middle schoolers need PDAs. For a more low-tech solution, does he have anything like a calendar page that he can take to every class and jot down important things? It could be a week at a time with space at the bottom for "beyond this week".

Then at the end of each week he could carry over the "beyond this week" things into next week's calendar.

You could make it work on one page, and if you print it out on neon paper, he would be more likely to be able to find it in all the mess.

It would be an extremely condensed version of the assignment books. All of the details would be in the assignment books, and this sheet would be just the reminder.

Something like:

Monday

Spanish review sheet due

Math homework due

Tuesday

ELA homework due

Wednesday:

Spanish test!!!

...

Beyond this week:

Next Tuesday: ELA test!!!
Feb 3: 6th grade class recital

-- GoogleMaster - 25 Jan 2006

is this it??

or is this from Google Master?

Then at the end of each week he could carry over the "beyond this week" things into next week's calendar.

You could make it work on one page, and if you print it out on neon paper, he would be more likely to be able to find it in all the mess.

It would be an extremely condensed version of the assignment books. All of the details would be in the assignment books, and this sheet would be just the reminder.

Something like:

Monday

Spanish review sheet due
Math homework due
Tuesday

ELA homework due
Wednesday:

Spanish test!!! ...

Beyond this week:

Next Tuesday: ELA test!!! Feb 3: 6th grade class recital

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

wait?

where's Doug's comment?

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Yay!

found it

"...NOT TO MENTION CALLING DOUG A BAD NAME!"

To be fair, he or she didn't do that, though I suspect that we were intended to draw that inference. I was actually more offended by the "crazy woman" crack (which is arguably the same thing).

What struck me most was that the argument was really weak, though, consisting of a series of straw men, implied ad hominems, non sequiturs, and special pleading (sorry, my latin does not encompass the plural of argumentum ad misericordiam).

I'll not speculate on the reason for this weakness*.

* See Apophasis.

-- DougSundseth^? - 25 Jan 2006

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Yeah, that's the one. I'm pretty sure it got lost during a page edit. I have an edit early in the thread that I've been avoiding because I don't want to trash anyone else's comments.

Inadvertant deletion is a cost of the software you're using, but generally a minor one. I believe it to be caused by opening the page for editing, then someone else saving a comment, then saving the edit. The edited page overwrites any interim changes to the page.

-- DougSundseth - 25 Jan 2006

Ed just read your last comment & burst out laughing. (The one about Latin)

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

btw, the way to find lost comments is to click on 'Revision History' & just keep scrolling down.

So far I've found everything people have told me about.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Now, of course, I'm sitting here wondering if all the teachers are as unhappy as this teacher.

They could be.

Ed said, last year, that he had the feeling teachers were 'living in fear' — specifically, fear of the administration.

I have no idea whether that's true, but there's a weird......STRANGLEDNESS.......something like that.

Paradoxically, this is one of the reasons I'm as 'out there' as I am. So many people seem so upset that I figure, what the hell.

Of course, that's not it.

Basically, I take the tack of just Telling People What I'm Obsessing About, and having everyone identify me as the 'Singapore Math' mom, or, now, the 'Teach to Mastery' mom, or the 'Say No to Spiralling' mom.

AND I TRY TO KEEP A SENSE OF HUMOR AND CONVEY TO PEOPLE THAT I'M MANAGING TO HAVE SOME FUN IN THE MIDST OF ALL MY SINGAPORE MATH/TEACH TO MASTERY/SAY NO TO SPIRALLING GRIPING.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Still.

I wonder if Irvington is more 'unhappy' (if that's what it is) than other districts?

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

This morning on the train, Ed was sitting a little ways down from a bunch of Irvington commuters, ALL of whom were complaining about the schools.

all of them

every last one

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

one last thing, and then I have to go finish my Saxon Math for the night

When I was a trustee at NAAR, everyone in the organization was CHURNED AND CHURNING every second of the day

We had all kinds of mishegoss (sp?)

I was completely engaged; I used to obsess about NAAR and its doings 27/7

But I did manage to remind myself (as did everyone else) that our real problem wasn't each other, but the fact that we were incredibly upset that our children were so terribly handicapped and so vulnerable

Now that I've experienced Total Immersion in the world of non-special ed, I realize that things are no different for the parents of normal kids. Not much, anyway.

A few months after I had Jimmy, a woman I'd just met, who also had a new baby, told me, 'Parents give hostages to fortune.'

I've never forgotten that.

Most parents would do anything for their children. We would die for them.

We would kill for them. I would.

Those emotions are constantly in play when we're talking about school and the problems our children are having at school.

So......in my daily face-to-face life in the District, I spend A LOT of time smiling and laughing.

I need more of that — I get more of it here! — and everyone else does, too.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

"...the way to find lost comments is to click on 'Revision History'...."

Yeah, I found it before commenting, but didn't want to restore a comment in what has been a more-than-normally-contentious thread. If you thought that I'd crossed a line, I didn't want to compound my offense.

"We had all kinds of mishegoss (sp?)"

This Yiddish dictionary spells it "Mishegas". The same dictionary also says,

Since the Yiddish word is being transliterated using the English alphabet, it's a "best guess" process anyway. I assume phonetically based, instead of a strict Hebrew character to English character mapping. Thus, your spelling is as "proper" as other variations of spelling that a person may come up with.

"Most parents would do anything for their children. We would die for them.

"We would kill for them. I would."

In the space between one heartbeat and the next.

This is why excuses and finger-pointing by school employees mean so little to me. I don't care about excuses; I only care about performance. I am constantly reinforced in my view that this is a very alien viewpoint for a unionized government employee.

Even if it isn't primarily your* fault, I don't want to hear about how it isn't your fault. As a school employee, you are either part of the solution, or you are not. If you are not part of the solution to my problem, why should I listen to you?

Note that that last question is a real question rather than a rhetorical question. It is possible that there is some reason that I should listen to you, but you'll need to convince me. I have no ab initio desire to listen; you'll need to give me a really good reason.

* The remainder uses "you" and "your" to refer to a notional school employee. Given the course of the discussion, this seems a necessary disclaimer.

-- DougSundseth - 25 Jan 2006

I wondered why this thread got so long so fast.

My initial reaction to KtmGuest^?'s comments is that it is another "woe is me" teacher response. By the way, KtmGuest^? should not introduce the topic of poor teachers when the average salary in our state is over $50K. Besides, I might (again) refer to the jobs where I had to work 60 and 70 hours a week for months at a time with no extra compensation. How about the job my wife had where they cancelled all vacations at Christmas and New Years and brought in cots. No employee could be more than 30 minutes away from work. The solution? Find another job. Good teachers might find it quite liberating to get rid of the union and work under a full voucher and full charter school system.

I might be sympathetic to teachers, but this is all about kids, not teachers. If a sixth grade teacher has kids coming in the door who don't know their times tables, I prefer that the teacher yell and scream at the administration about getting unprepared students rather than complain about having to meet trivial state tests. Many teachers seem to define the problem of education only in terms of what would make their own job better, not what is best for the kids.

"Why not work from within the system? Might I suggest going to general PTSA meetings to influence the culture or running for a position on the school board."

Catherine hasn't been trying to work from within the system? Did I miss something in her last 10,000+++ words? By the way, this is still all about the kids and not the "system". The "system" is a big part of the problem, as KtmGuest^? explains very well. (One should notice that KTM regulars are much more concerned about curricula and basic educational philosophies than teachers in general.) I have been on various committees at our school and they are designed to limit outside influence, unless you like to bake cookies. Our superintendent told me once that I could be on a curriculum committee that was being reformed. The committee never formed and they decided to continue to use MathLand, a math program so bad it was dropped years ago by its publisher. How can one be part of a process when there is no process. How can one influence a system if he/she has very little influence.

"While this is going on, the state and federal governments decide that testing will make schools better. You love the idea of standards, but you worry that the data will only be used to take the soul out of what was once a wonderful learning community. It turns out you are correct."

Will someone please tell me again what it is about trivial state standards that will "take the soul out of what was once a wonderful learning community." Schools should laugh at these standards. If kids are being socially promoted (spiraled) and are unprepared to take the test, don't blame the test.

"Remember as you criticize the teachers who sacrifice every day to teach your children that they are doing what you don't."

Sacrifice? AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Can I make it longer?

"...doing what you don't"?

Besides being categorically false (unless the "you" is some vague usage - surely not KTM regulars), it is abhorrently arrogant. This attitude is exactly one of the reasons to support full school choice, especially if teachers feel personally attacked when parents dare to criticize curricula and basic educational assumptions.

"Think about the harm you are doing and compare that to the positive influence people with your analytical, research, and writing skills can bring to a school district."

Think about the harm schools with bad curricula and low expectations are doing to kids. Think about how school districts really don't want any sort of parental input. Positive influence does not necessarily mean supporting whatever teachers want. Does it? How about positive influence for the kids, not the teachers and the system? How can teachers on one hand complain about the system, and on the other hand, complain that parents must work within the system. Apparently, teachers only want parents as allies in support of their own agendas. Also, teachers apparently don't like unions, but can't seem to figure out how to live without them and they can't seem to figure out that what is best for the unions is not often best for the kids.

This is not about the teachers. It's about the kids.

-- SteveH - 25 Jan 2006

Assuming that he/she is an Irvington teacher, his her experience is a lot to take in:

I'm thinking school board member. Who else could stay silent through months of criticism of the curricula and then get incensed about the edline slush fund. Then there's the change-the-forum-to-one-we-control-and-isn't-quite-so- visible trick:

Why not work from within the system? Might I suggest going to general PTSA meetings to influence the culture or running for a position on the school board. We all have a right to express ourselves in whatever community we see fit, but your words are ignorant of a larger problem.

-- KDeRosa - 25 Jan 2006

"We all have a right to express ourselves in whatever community we see fit, but your words are ignorant of a larger problem."

"Who do you belive is responsible for our current school culture? If you know there is a problem but your only cure is to rant about it, you are ineffective. Please give me some mirror time tonight tonight because you are only making it worse."

I was wondering about this comment of a "larger problem". KtmGuest^? is not clear about this, unless it is what is described in the next paragraph as "current school culture". Does that mean that everything will be just fine if the school culture is fixed. KtmGuest^? should go into more details about this. I always thought the larger problem was providing the best educational opportunities for each child; not closing educational doors with bad curricula, bad teaching methods, bad educational philosophies, and low expectations.

Actually, the reason for KTM's existence and the reason so many of us spend a whole lot of time responding is not because of school culture. It is because there is a huge problem with how math and many other subjects are taught in grades K-8 nationally. The reason for KTM's existence (note the name) is because parents have to make up at home for all of the philosophical and curricular failings of the schools. Even if we ignore teacher issues and teaching methodologies, there are still the failings of the curriculum.

The only kids who are prepared to take a proper college prep math (esp. honors or AP courses) track in high school are those kids who are very smart or get help outside of the school. The current crop of fuzzy, low expectation, no mastery, discovery, spiraling math curricula are HARMFUL to kids. In the old days, traditional math may have been taught very poorly or inconsistently, but I don't think that was on purpose (perhaps incompetence and neglect played a part). Nowadays, perhaps there are more controls and teachers are more consistent (with the program), but the math curricula do not get students from point A (counting numbers in Kindergarten) to point B (a full course in algebra in eighth or ninth grade). This IS on purpose.

The problem of education is not some myopic teacher-perspective view of the problem. It is not "if only". If only we had more money. If only we had smaller class sizes. If only we didn't have to meet (trivial) state standards. If only the administration would get off my back. If only parents would get off my back. If only we had a better school culture. It is much more fundamental than that and it's not just about the teachers.

KTM exists because schools are not doing their jobs. Parents have to do it at home at the kitchen table. KTM is not ranting. It contains specific help for parents that they cannot get from the teachers, administration, school committee, or parent/teacher groups. Most of the regulars here have spent a whole lot of time working within their systems. It doesn't work.

Bravo Catherine and Carolyn! KTM is quite effective.

-- SteveH - 25 Jan 2006

"Bravo Catherine and Carolyn! KTM is quite effective."

Hear, hear! I just wanted to chime in and comment that KTM inspires and motivates me daily. I don't feel as alone "afterschooling" as I used to. I've never viewed this site as a "teacher-bashing" forum, but more of a place where we can get answers to questions and motivation to help all our kids.

And I'd definitely say KTM gets extra points for introducing me to Kumon--any program that can motivate Megan to want to do school work ON HER OWN is worth it.

-- KathyIggy - 25 Jan 2006

Most of the regulars here have spent a whole lot of time working within their systems. It doesn't work.

To paraphrase Churchill: we've tried to be pillars of the school, but now we're more like flying buttresses --we support the school from the outside.

-- KDeRosa - 25 Jan 2006

"I have been on various committees at our school and they are designed to limit outside influence, unless you like to bake cookies."

I agree 100%--parental involvement seems to mean baking cookies, or being part of a "secret admirer" program for teachers buying them gifts, or buying cookie dough at Market Day, or buying magazine subscriptions for the PTO fund-raising drive. It all seems to be about raising money, and all the "big-time" "INVOLVED" parents are on all these committees that do just that.

On a positive note, the teachers, in response to my numerous emails and suggestions, thank me for my communication and have usually agreed with me. Of course, I don't know what they say in the break room, and if they would rather have me baking cookies or helping the kids make holiday craft projects, etc. like lots of the moms love to do....

-- KathyIggy - 25 Jan 2006

Kathy,

Am I remembering correctly that you live in Normal? I'm also in that area.

-- KarenA - 25 Jan 2006

Karen: Yes! I live in Bloomington, but my daughters attend Unit 5 schools.

-- KathyIggy - 25 Jan 2006

Kathy: We should talk. . . . would you mind if I emailed you?

-- KarenA - 25 Jan 2006

Karen--No problem--the email I have listed is my home email, which I can't check from work, but I check that in the evenings, after math homework, of course :)

-- KathyIggy - 25 Jan 2006

Kathy: I'll email you in the next day or so. Thanks!

-- KarenA - 25 Jan 2006

Doug

Oh!

Thank you.

That was sweet.

I can't imagine a circumstance under which I'd delete a 'Regular's' comment out of hand. It's funny; I've never even thought about this. I can imagine asking someone to consider softening a comment....but that's it.

From the start, Carolyn and I have wanted to 'host' — and it really is hosting — a site where people talk to each other the same way they'd talk to each other if they lived in the same town, and were in the same room together.

In other words: a site where people mind their manners.

All of the ktm regulars have done that!

It would be rude of me to peremptorily delete a comment by any of you.

So I wouldn't do it!

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Steve

Besides, I might (again) refer to the jobs where I had to work 60 and 70 hours a week for months at a time with no extra compensation. How about the job my wife had where they cancelled all vacations at Christmas and New Years and brought in cots. No employee could be more than 30 minutes away from work.

ditto

I am going to Exercise Restraint and Not Even Get Started about the horrors of being a free-lance writer who has two handicapped kids to support AFTER I'M DEAD.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

I think we'll all be happier that way.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

I'm still recommending the Neon paper.

-- GoogleMaster - 25 Jan 2006

Steve

If a sixth grade teacher has kids coming in the door who don't know their times tables, I prefer that the teacher yell and scream at the administration about getting unprepared students rather than complain about having to meet trivial state tests.

good point

I'll add that anyone working inside a system has to work inside that system. A teacher can't be screaming and yelling at the administration all the time, or maybe any of the time.

BUT a teacher can be persistently making the point, gently and respectfully, THAT THE KIDS ARE COMING INTO SIXTH GRADE NOT KNOWING THEIR TIMES TABLES.

spaced repetition

anyone can do it

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Catherine hasn't been trying to work from within the system? Did I miss something in her last 10,000+++ words?

hahahahahaha!!!!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

I would say The System has seen about as much of me as it can stand.

By now I almost agree with them.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Actually, I TRY not to drive everyone nuts.

But boy.

There aren't too many people in too many school districts who've heard the words 'Singapore Math' as often as folks here have.

And all coming from the same person.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

"It would be rude of me to peremptorily delete a comment by any of you."

I have the occasional failure of judgement, which I'll not see (pretty much by definition). The deleted comment was (in retrospect) a bit harsh, though I didn't think it unwarranted when I posted it. I wouldn't have thought you rude had you deleted it; it would have been a difference in judgement.

It's your place and your rules; your judgement calls are controlling.

-- DougSundseth - 25 Jan 2006

I have been on various committees at our school and they are designed to limit outside influence, unless you like to bake cookies. Our superintendent told me once that I could be on a curriculum committee that was being reformed.

I'm going to ditto this one.

Our superintendent just set up a Wellness Committee.

And our assistant superintendent for curriculum is now going to apply to the Irvington Education Foundation for funds to pay teachers to attend a Forum on curriculum, or perhaps on parent experience of curriculum.....something along those lines.

I know both of them would object, but I feel that these committees are designed to limit parent influence.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Steve

Remember as you criticize the teachers who sacrifice every day to teach your children that they are doing what you don't.

I actually didn't understand this line myself.

Teachers who sacrifice every day to teach my kids that they're doing what I don't do.....

This seems to mean that.....teachers work within the system while I hide on the web and rant.....

Is that how you read this?

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

How can teachers on one hand complain about the system, and on the other hand, complain that parents must work within the system.

hey!

good point!

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

Ken

you think?

hmmm

That hadn't occurred to me.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

the edline slush fund

you're bad

you really are

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Jan 2006

hi, Doug!

I'm playing catch up.

I STILL HAVE NOT TYPED STEVE'S ALGEBRA LESSON INTO EQUATION EDITOR!!!!

I have the occasional failure of judgement, which I'll not see (pretty much by definition).

I love it!

When I figured, a couple of months ago, that Irvington people would probably be finding the site pretty soon I actually went back and edited some of my own comments out.

It's a demanding kind of discipline, writing and talking to people you've never met but 'know well' online AND AT THE SAME TIME asking yourself: would I feel bad if other people read this????

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Steve

Think about the harm you are doing and compare that to the positive influence people with your analytical, research, and writing skills can bring to a school district.

I know.

That's another weird one.

oops — must run to get Ed....

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

I'm back.

Actually, that line supports Ken's school board theory.

HOWEVER....unless ktm guest tried to disguise himself/herself, this is a teacher talking.

The Captain Ahab line is a STRONG feeling amongst teachers.

Probably all of the teachers want an answer to this question:

IF THIS DISTRICT IS SPENDING $18,000 PER PUPIL HOW COME I'M PAYING FOR KLEENEX?

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

(Apparently the district has formally stopped paying for tissues in the elementary school classrooms.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

"...would I feel bad if other people read this?"

The reason I don't use a pseudonym here or elsewhere is that it helps me to maintain a certain discipline. I try not to write anything that I wouldn't write when expecting a response.

Sometimes I'm willing to write with brutal directness when expecting a response, but I always try to answer serious responses with equal seriousness.

-- DougSundseth - 26 Jan 2006

Steve

That is a beautiful passage.

I just put it up front.

I love this part:

In the old days, traditional math may have been taught very poorly or inconsistently, but I don't think that was on purpose (perhaps incompetence and neglect played a part). Nowadays, perhaps there are more controls and teachers are more consistent (with the program), but the math curricula do not get students from point A (counting numbers in Kindergarten) to point B (a full course in algebra in eighth or ninth grade). This IS on purpose.

It almost brings tears to my eyes (and I don't spend a lot of time crying about math!)

I grew up on a farm, just outside a small town in central Illinois. (Kathy Iggy's about 30 miles away from where I grew up!)

I don't think I got a very good education, I'm afraid.

But what my teachers taught me, they taught me well.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Doug

The reason I don't use a pseudonym here or elsewhere is that it helps me to maintain a certain discipline. I try not to write anything that I wouldn't write when expecting a response.

THAT IS EXACTLY THE DECISION I MADE.

Exactly.

Knowing that I'm signing my real name to things I write forces me to be responsible — it's what prevents me from ranting in the simple sense of the word.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

I've never viewed this site as a "teacher-bashing" forum, but more of a place where we can get answers to questions and motivation to help all our kids.

I'm so glad to hear it.

The person who's written the most criticism of teachers is clearly me, and I've strictly limited myself to criticizing a handful of specific teachers on a handful of specific issues.

I've also posted teacher 'appreciations,' letters of recommendations I've written for teachers, etc. There are very few good things Christopher's teachers have done that I haven't mentioned. (Which reminds me, I should mention that Andrew and Jimmy both have phenomenal teachers. Phenomenal. I haven't written about them only because that's been too far off-topic.)

And I'd definitely say KTM gets extra points for introducing me to Kumon--any program that can motivate Megan to want to do school work ON HER OWN is worth it.

That is AMAZING!!!

So she's still wanting to work on her own?????

Incredible!

Why do you think that is?

I have to say: Andrew loves his KUMON.

But that's a little different, I think....and he certainly isn't 'asking' to do it.

Not yet, anyway.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Ken

To paraphrase Churchill: we've tried to be pillars of the school, but now we're more like flying buttresses --we support the school from the outside.

LOL!

What's the original???

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Kathy

Same here.

I always felt exactly the same way; I felt that supporting the school meant raising money.

So that's what I did for quite a long time.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Now I'm ranting on the internet.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

What's the original???

Churchill wrote once that he was "not a pillar of the Church but more of a flying buttress--I support it from the outside."

-- KDeRosa - 26 Jan 2006

Trade unionists do not become teachers. Teachers become trade unionists. Beautiful line!

This is not about the teachers. It's about the kids. This ~~should~~ must be the prime directive in decision making in a classroom and a school.

-- SmartestTractor - 26 Jan 2006

"I grew up on a farm, just outside a small town in central Illinois. (Kathy Iggy's about 30 miles away from where I grew up!)"

Catherine--We've been in the Bloomington-Normal area since 1999.

-- KarenA - 26 Jan 2006

a precedent for censorship of KTM exists:
carolyn edited my first post at
MSimonOnEngineeringTeaching
to replace an ungenerous epithet with
"(er, gentleman)". darn right, too.

-- VlorbikDotCom - 26 Jan 2006

I was just educating your character. ;-)

-- CarolynJohnston - 26 Jan 2006

Teachers who sacrifice every day to teach my kids that they're doing what I don't do.....

This seems to mean that.....teachers work within the system while I hide on the web and rant.....

Is that how you read this?

Actually, I think the comment needed a little bit of editing. The complaint sounded to me like they were doing the teaching and you were doing the ranting. Perhaps KtmGuest^? would have done better to focus the criticism a little bit more carefully. Instead, he/she got carried away and opened the discussion up to many more topics. In fact, I think we found out that his/her problem was about much more than your perceived ranting. KtmGuest^? did a good job of ranting him/herself.

-- SteveH - 26 Jan 2006

Churchill wrote once that he was "not a pillar of the Church but more of a flying buttress--I support it from the outside."

I love it!

I have to get back to my Wit & Wisdom Churchill book....

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Smartest Tractor

Trade unionists do not become teachers. Teachers become trade unionists. Beautiful line!

Ed LOVED that line.

Actually, it's true.

From what I've been able to piece together, unions are there to protect teachers from administrations...(I do realize that, historically, unions allow workers to negotiate with management from a position of strength, btw.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

I've read this entire thread, and I still can't figure out what "mirror time" is.

-- TerriWheeler - 26 Jan 2006

Hi, V!

a precedent for censorship of KTM exists

well, I wasn't going to bring that up!

what you wrote that day DID violate the Prime Directive, but it was also hilarious

i do realize i've now egged everyone on to go check out Yon Revision History

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Hi, Terri!

I was struck by that phrase myself. I assumed it was educational jargon I hadn't heard before.

I'm glad you reminded me.

Here's something from Balanced Assessment: "Mirror Time is a mathematics assessment task from the Balanced Assessment Program. It is part of our Elementary School Balanced Packet."

Here's something from....physics:

"Feynman diagrams can be drawn in multiple ways, John Gribbin explains them well they could be particles that flow backwards in time and light been its own antiparticle surgests it knows where its going before which surgests a known universe defying QM so its always forward time flow with mirror propertys instead of, for example, an electron with mirror time. The electron is really a positron with opposite behaviour instead of mirror behaviour."

Matter versus Antimatter Asymmetry

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Karen A

We've been in the Bloomington-Normal area since 1999

oh, wow!

You and Kathy both!

Neat.

Where were you living before?

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

I think the comment needed a little bit of editing. The complaint sounded to me like they were doing the teaching and you were doing the ranting.

That one was hard for me to figure, because the idea seemed to be that ktm guest has been reading the site for some time.....and since the ENTIRE site is built on the premise that Carolyn and I are teaching our kids math (as you pointed out in your line about 'note the title') I was thinking the reference was to something else I'm not doing that teachers are doing.

The Comment is kind of great in its own way.

It's definitely too rant-y (AND I SHOULD KNOW!); what I mean is, it's not a sufficiently controlled rant.

The Granddaddy of Rants is Ken's Terminator, which, interestingly, is the same genre ktm guest's Comment falls into.

QUESTION: IS 'TERMINATOR' A GENRE???

DID KTM MANAGE TO INVENT ITS OWN GENRE???

Obviously people write rants all the time.....but the CANT-BE-STOPPED-JUST-KEEPS-COMING narrative-sequence quality is actually something I haven't seen too often.

I'm not sure I've seen it at all. (I'm going to have to think.)

I think I've seen people write 'MY BAD DAY' rants, where the horror of some particular bad day gets structured into a TERMINATOR narrative.....

but I don't think I've seen My Bad Years put together the way Ken put together his TERMINATOR essay.

If I had to bet, I'd put money on it ktm guest read Ken's essay and was inspired by it

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Ed enjoyed it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Because....he's not the one getting called crazy.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

ok, I'm kidding.

I have to admit, I kind of enjoyed it myself.

Once I got over the name-calling and my patented WAIT JUST ONE MINUTE I'M A FREE-LANCE WRITER I DON'T HAVE TENURE, HEALTH INSURANCE FOR LIFE AND A PENSION reaction, that is

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

I'm serious about the genre question.

Did Ken invent a new narrative type?????

It's possible.

boy, that would be cool

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Steve

If the administration ever found out who wrote that comment, there'd be trouble.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

That's assuming it wasn't somebody IN the administration, of course.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Just kidding.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Catherine--

"Where were you living before?"

We were in Carmel, an Indianapolis suburb, for ten years, and before that, Kansas.

-- KarenA - 26 Jan 2006

Seriously, though, that was a complete and total trash of Irvington schools.

Miles past anything I've said, or would have said.

After re-reading, I realized that 'programs' does indeed mean PROGRAMS; it means curriculum.

This Commenter is saying that Irvington basically churns curriculum.

And that none of the curricular choices & reforms work, ever.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

We were in Carmel, an Indianapolis suburb, for ten years, and before that, Kansas.

oh, wow!

you've been all over the place

AND....it's 11 o'clock here

dang

we're not going to get to watch INVASION tonight (Ed's teaching a huge, brand-new lecture course this semester, so he's working all hours)

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

off-topic, but I don't want to lose this —

The second important finding to me -- albeit this one's of greater interest to policy wonks and number crunchers is, of course, that NAEP, the National Assessment of Educational Progress, on which so much of our policy analysis in this field depends so heavily is far more complicated than most people suppose. NAEP afficionados, which is a very tiny, tiny population, have known for quite some time that there really are two NAEP's, but I've never seen it so clearly explained, and illustrated, and documented, as in this report. Be aware -- and I speak as a former member of the NAEP governing board, that this poses a real dilemma for NAEP policy too, also for Congress during the upcoming NAEP reauthorization. Are we more interested in long-term trend data, or are we more interested in keeping NAEP tests aligned with the latest shifts in curriculum and instructional practice in this country? It's really impossible to have it both ways -- impossible to have it both ways, unless in fact you continue to run to essentially separate, parallel and discrepant NAEP's, that throw off different results, and thus adding to the confusion. I think it's very important dilemma to weigh in terms of NAEP policy.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

I was wondering if KTM guest was aware of the origin of the “helicopter” parent terminology.

If you are still with us, “guest,” I suggest you might read this link in full. http://www.teachusmath.com/NYTIMES_051109.html

It is a negative term assigned to concerned parents by Penfield, NY superintendent Susan Gray.

I guess parents are supposed to shut up and let education professionals handle the job – well that’s not going to happen, sorry.

WHAT WOULD LIFE BE LIKE WITHOUT KTM?

Where would your average “helicopter” parent go to get the best tools needed to teach their children math at home, and valuable insight on how to deal with education bureaucrats?

Nowhere but KTM.

Catherine and Carolyn are like Generals rallying the troops in a burgeoning army of “helicopter” parents, and the education community should take notice from these KTM postings –

HELICOPTER PARENTS WANT A “CHOICE” TO HAVE

Excellent math curriculum like Singapore and Saxon

Direct instruction not constructivism

Teaching to mastery

Formative assessment

Currently Public Education is failing our children. No amount of additional funding is going to improve education outcomes until excellent curriculum and direct instruction are instituted.

Teachers cannot be expected to perform their jobs adequately without proper tools. They are the ones who must fight on the “inside” for better curriculum.

Thank you Catherine and Carolyn for all that you do

-- JoAnneC - 26 Jan 2006

Jo Anne —

THANK YOU!

You just made my day!

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

well, actually, I can compliment my own site......

at least half the great books I have around here I found out about from KTM contributors

My grammar book, my algebra books, my calculus books (I bought every single calculus book anyone recommended, I think), my trigonometry/pre-calc text.....

Plus, of course, I'm constantly picking up teaching tips & insights

OH!

I found out about KUMON through ktm. Barb Oakley sent me an email telling me all about it, and about 2 months later, there we were. I don't know how I would have learned about KUMON otherwise. I thought it was remedial tutoring of some kind.

I didn't really know what I was doing when Carolyn & I started ktm, but the one thing I did know was that I desperately needed mentors & colleagues in math.

They're hard to come by. Here in town, I only know one other person who's been teaching her child as actively as I have, and that's my next-door neighbor, who is a statistician.

That's not a criticism of Irvington parents. I only got into this because I'm an obsessive Dive Into Things sort of person. I don't have a 'normal' personality — or a normal career.

Nonfiction writers often have to tackle brand-new fields, & over the years I'd developed an ability to get a quick 'read' on a field I knew nothing about.

Most people can't do that — again, this isn't a criticism. Being able to get a quick read on a 'foreign' field isn't a skill you need in everyday life (though it comes in handy when you have to deal with medical emergencies & the like).

When I think about all this, it's creepy.

I have a hypomanic, hyperactive, hyper-enthusiastic personality.....which is not normal.

I like my personality fine, but I wouldn't want everyone to have it. We'd all collapse from exhaustion.

Basically, the only kids getting through now are the children of Math-Brain parents OR the children of crazed non-math-brain writer parents like me.

If you weren't math-savvy in the first place, as I wasn't, you wouldn't realize your child wasn't where he should be.

You wouldn't know what you didn't know.

I had no idea how poor Christopher's math achievement was in fourth grade. I just wanted to teach him the math units he 'missed.'

If I hadn't read Wayne Wickelgren's Math Coach Christopher would still be in Phase 3, still not learning anything to mastery in the slow track.

I wouldn't have figured any of this out on my own — why would I?

Why would any parent?

The answer is, they wouldn't.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

wait

I have to add a couple more categories

The only children getting through now are:

children of Math Brain parents

children of crazed writer moms

children attending Catholic Schools

children attending good private schools

children being homeschooled

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

It seems like we could begin a "splinter cell" of KTM in Central Illinois. Of course, we'd have to build a smaller, but just as elaborate, "Regional Office" with moat, but maybe we could also have fields with cows, corn, and soybeans surrounding it too (and an electric barbed wire fence!)

I am originally from Wisconsin; I attended my last 2 years of high school and college in St. Louis.

I also attended Catholic elementary, high school, and college, so my oldest daughter was my first experience with public schools.

And yes, Meg is still doing KUMON on her own; she actually got it out at the breakfast table the other day! She was finishing 5 sheets in 5-7 minutes, so he has her doing 10 sheets a day now, which are taking around 20 mins. She's almost done with A1 in reading. We'll start Math this summer; I have a feeling she'll be starting around Level a there too. I'm also thinking of starting my kindergartener in Math this summer.

We are struggling through long division in EM, resulting in tears all around, yelling I'm a "mean mommy", etc. etc. etc. We ended after 2 hours last night of me just doing the problems for her. It really would have helped if Megan even knew what a remainder was before this point. And any estimation for autism spectrum kids is a nightmare....

-- KathyIggy - 26 Jan 2006

I have attached a snapshot of my class calendar below. It isn't as pretty as edline, but it is free. No passwords or user ids are required for parents and/or students to look at the contents. Those who wish to stay up-to-date can click on whatever they wish to see. I include school events which directly effect the students in the classroom. I used a bulletin board in the past (for three years), but parents did not, according to the log file, use it.

-- SmartestTractor - 26 Jan 2006

You forgot Children of Outraged Math Phobes.

I know someone has to join me at this site one day. I think you all scare them off. We're a jumpy bunch.

-- SusanS - 26 Jan 2006

You forgot Children of Outraged Math Phobes.

THAT IS HILARIOUS!!!

Well, you and I are variants of the same category: children of Crazed Mothers Who Know Next To Nothing About Math But Are Damn Well Going To See To It That Their Own Kids Do

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Smartest Tractor

I have attached a snapshot of my class calendar below. It isn't as pretty as edline, but it is free. No passwords or user ids are required for parents and/or students to look at the contents.

That is fantastic!!!

Parents must love you.

My sister-in-law is a teacher like you; EVERYTHING she does is sensible, directed to making sure the kids learn, based in sound practice and experience — everything.

My mom visited her class one day, and she said people were practically swooning over her.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

What's a bulletin board??

I know it's weird I don't know that....

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Catherine--What small town in central Illinois are you from? I hope it's okay to ask--my curiousity is piqued.

-- KarenA - 26 Jan 2006

Lincoln, IL

Just 25 miles south of you

R.R. 3, Primm Road

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

Parents must love you.

It is quick and easy, but parents still don't use it.

Electronic bulletin board - a forum - what you have here but you would have to log in with a user id and a password.

But, it is all free! Even the asp host is...free. Communication without sucking dollars out of the classroom or school budget.

-- SmartestTractor - 26 Jan 2006

From what's going on around here, I think anything like this will have the standard 'Early adopter/later adopter' curve.....

It is quick and easy, but parents still don't use it.

Electronic bulletin board - a forum -

Plus.....it's bizarrely hard establishing new habits, like checking your child's binder.

And there's the multitasking issue.

I'm unbelievably neglectful of Jimmy & Andrew right now, except that I'm managing to get KUMON done with Andrew. But I missed my last speech therapist 'consult,' I've got unread emails sitting around.....

Parents probably need nagging as much as kids do.

from Gladwell:

One of the most famous diffusion studies is Bruce Ryan and Neal Gross's analysis of the spread of hybrid seed corn in Greene County, Iowa, in the nineteen-thirties. The new seed corn was introduced there in about 1928, and it was superior in every respect to the seed that had been used by farmers for decades. But it wasn't adopted all at once. Of two hundred and fifty-nine farmers studied by Ryan and Gross, only a handful had started planting the new seed by 1933. In 1934, sixteen took the plunge. In 1935, twenty-one more followed; the next year, there were thirty-six, and the year after that a whopping sixty-one. The succeeding figures were then forty-six, thirty-six, fourteen, and three, until, by 1941, all but two of the two hundred and fifty-nine farmers studied were using the new seed. In the language of diffusion research, the handful of farmers who started trying hybrid seed corn at the very beginning of the thirties were the "innovators," the adventurous ones. The slightly larger group that followed them was the "early adopters." They were the opinion leaders in the community, the respected, thoughtful people who watched and analyzed what those wild innovators were doing and then did it themselves. Then came the big bulge of farmers in 1936, 1937, and 1938-the "early majority" and the "late majority," which is to say the deliberate and the skeptical masses, who would never try anything until the most respected farmers had tried it. Only after they had been converted did the "laggards," the most traditional of all, follow suit. The critical thing about this sequence is that it is almost entirely interpersonal. According to Ryan and Gross, only the innovators relied to any great extent on radio advertising and farm journals and seed salesmen in making their decision to switch to the hybrid. Everyone else made his decision overwhelmingly because of the example and the opinions of his neighbors and peers.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Jan 2006

A teacher's view of innovation diffusion

-- SmartestTractor - 28 Jan 2006

3 years into the experiment (at work), still only a few people are using our internal wiki. (And yes, the software it uses is Twiki).

The people who adopt it are generally newcomers, and mainly those who are tasked with writing proposals. We have a huge online archive of proposals.

Once we have 100% turnover, we'll have 100% adoption, probably.

-- CarolynJohnston - 28 Jan 2006

classcalendar.JPG:

WebLogForm
Title:	character ed
TopicType:	WebLog
SubjectArea:	AboutCurricula, EducationResearch, IrvingtonMath, IrvingtonSchools
LogDate:	200601241608

Attachment	Action	Size	Date	Who	Comment
classcalendar.JPG	manage	95.0 K	26 Jan 2006 - 15:37	SmartestTractor

Navigate KTM

Kitchen Table Math

KTM User Pages

Service Groups

Parent Groups

Personal Pages

Blogs

Special lists

Help

character ed

Comments