Our test doesn't seem to be terrible on the 'explain your answer' business.

I'll have to post some of the open-answer questions.

They do, sometimes, ask students to 'explain' and I've found that confusing.

But the questions themselves are problems these kids should absolutely be able to do.

AND REMEMBER: THESE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE BRAINY, GIFTED, MATH-BRAIN KIDS.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

Here's a sample problem from the practice test posted on the state Department of Ed website:

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

I see this as the biggest problem of standardized testing. The low expectations on the tests become the maximum that will be achieved.

AND AS YOU POINT OUT, THEY CAN'T EVEN MEET THESE STANDARDS.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

I could be wrong about this, but my sense is that in our case the math department isn't even thinking intelligently about what to do to get kids ready for this test.

Ms. Kahl, teaching accelerated math, has spent the entire year teaching rote memorization of formulas and procedures - and slapping them with the occasional 'Extended Response' problem they can't do.

How does that make sense?

Our state test is no mystery; there's a sample posted online.

That test contains precisely ZERO extended response problems requiring the use of modular arithmetic to solve.

So why did the class focus on Extended Response problems?

The state test DOES require a full day of testing on open-ended applications, AKA word problems.

Why weren't the kids doing simple-to-intermediate-to-complex word problems throughout the entire school year?

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

I don't know how you've been teaching these problems, but the way that I'd try for that wildflower problem is something like this:

1) What is the whole? (20)

2) What is the part we want to know about? (A: 12, B: 6)

3) What is the fraction -- the ratio of the part to the whole? (A: 12/20, B: 6/20)

4) Reduce the fraction to lowest terms.

The method should be pretty easy to extend to other problems of the same sort. And understanding the concept of "the whole" seems broadly valuable to me. It will be used again many times.

-- DougSundseth - 09 Mar 2006

THANK YOU!!

I have GOT to 'harvest' all these approaches and get them organized into one post - and put on the math lessons page...

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

OK, at least I've recorded the URL for this Thread; I'll get the others....

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

The state requires a FULL DAY OF TESTING?

For what by my calculations are 12 year olds?

Now I've done two three hour exams in a day, and that was tiring but doable at 15 or older. But there's a big difference in maturity between 12 and 15.

What on earth is the marginal information you could get by a full day of testing versus a 50 minute test? Or perhaps, two 50 minute tests?

How do they handle toilet stops? Lunch? Exercise?

-- TracyW - 09 Mar 2006

I'm not sure how they're broken down, but it actually goes on for a week, or nearly. That's just for the state.

-- SusanS - 09 Mar 2006

You know, I love Americans. You are great, friendly, kind people.

But I am becoming more and more convinced there's something about the culture that drives people to extremes. Your restaurants either serve enough food per meal to last a week, or three snow peas and a strip of beef very artistically arranged. The state doesn't just test, they test for a WEEK?

-- TracyW - 09 Mar 2006

Ah well, you probably think Kiwis are just as funny.

Or, at least the Americans who have lived here.

-- TracyW - 09 Mar 2006

Kiwis are pretty funny. But I agree, we Americans are nuts in our own special way.

-- CarolynJohnston - 09 Mar 2006

For what by my calculations are 12 year olds?

CHRISTOPHER IS 11 1/2!

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

IT'S TWO DAYS OF TESTING

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

Actually, it's two days of an hour or two of testing.

They spread it out.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

I thought ours was longer. It may be different for different years. I'll have to find out. I know they like to test in the morning, for obvious reasons.

-- SusanS - 09 Mar 2006

wait!

a week?

a week of testing?

for real?

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

they must do all the tests the same week.....

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

Tracy

I thought western cultures tended to go to extremes.....(I know NOTHING about 'western cultures' write large btw)

I was assuming that because of Nisbett's book on Asian versus Western cultures & the 'logic of noncontradiction'

How Asians and Westerners Think Differently

How Asians and Westerners Think Differently, part 2

It's interesting stuff, and it would certainly contribute to 'going to extremes.'

One of the things Nisbett finds is that Asians, when they disagree, will instantly look for consensus.

Westerners will polarize.

But he's talking about 'Westerners,' not just Americans.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

I just asked Christopher about the test.

It's fine, I think. It's one hour each day.

I think they do multiple choice the first day, then 'open answer' or 'open response' (where you have to work the problem, show your work, etc.) the second day.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

It's fine, I think. It's one hour each day.

Phew! Much more civilised.

I thought western cultures tended to go to extremes.....

I don't know enough about eastern cultures, but they seem to go to extremes too. E.g. the overseas-Chinese work ethic makes the Protestant work ethic look like lazing around in bed with a glass of wine.

Or, on a more serious level, facism in Japan was as nasty as that in Germany, and communism even more lethal. An extreme which the USA has never gone to.

That the tests don't go on for a whole week is leading me to modify my original conclusion though. Perhaps Americans only go to extremes when it comes to food and exercise. (Weirdly, when I was living in the USA, I wound up eating much more healthily than I do in NZ. The supermarkets seemed split between health food, fruit, veges, heavily wholemeal bread, etc, and food very high in sugar and fats. I couldn't tolerate the sugar and fats, so I wound up eating like a health nut. Actually lost weight, though that was probably because my job had me on my feet each day every day.)

-- TracyW - 09 Mar 2006

I'll have to find out the specifics. I could have sworn there were years where it went all week, but maybe it just felt that way.

I do know that some have been over 2 days, for sure. It's different for the different grades, depending on what they're testing for.

-- SusanS - 09 Mar 2006

I don't know enough about eastern cultures, but they seem to go to extremes too. E.g. the overseas-Chinese work ethic makes the Protestant work ethic look like lazing around in bed with a glass of wine.

I'm so out of my depth here it's ridiculous.

The one thing I do 'know' is that, universally, historians (& I think poli sci types) speak of Asian cultures as 'consensus cultures.'

oh, that's interesting....do you know any of Cass Sunstein's work on 'group polarization'?

I think the paper is easily findable.

He has a whole analysis of groups going to extremes.

It's exactly what you'd expect.

Any time people speak only to other people they already agree with their position becomes more extreme.

He's shown this in juries, in particular.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

oh, this is great!

Sunstein has a short post about an experiment on group polarization in CO:

deliberation leading to polarization

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Mar 2006

This phenomenon is one reason I have a bit of a 'contrarian rule' for myself (apart from the fact that I'm a natural born contrarian...)

I always force myself to contemplate what aspects of constructivism might be right, or might be things I already agree with without realizing it, or might be 'wrong for the right reason' (i.e. motivated by the same problems I'm motivated by).....etc., etc.

Also: what aspects have I failed to understand or turned into a straw man?

It's actually possible to be opinionated (CHECK) and carry on asking yourself these questions....

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Mar 2006

Okay Tracy and Catherine,

I did my homework. This year, fifth grade in IL, students start the ISATs this Monday. Testing Monday and Tuesday is for "much of the day," followed by more testing Wednesday and Thursday mornings (shorter). I do believe that there has been more expected on certain years. I shall continue my undercover work as I run into hapless teachers.

In IL certain years have only one subject while others cover more. I have no idea about NCLB. I just remember getting these notices home telling us to make sure the kids were well-rested and fed before they came to school.

I have been told by teachers that they never know what the state will have on the test because they change it in some way almost yearly. For instance, after including a pretty strenuous writing section they up and decided not to have it in anymore. This, after many districts frantically put in pricey writing programs to get by such tests. After taking it out for a year or so, they up and put it back in, so the schools are now scrambling again to create third grade essayists.

-- SusanS - 10 Mar 2006

wow

that's a lot of testing

is it all the subjects?

omg

that sounds like a nightmare

what's going on there????

my sense is that NY isn't so changeable......but it's entirely possible teachers & administrators would see it differently

Still, I think I would have heard more about it if they did.

There's angst over math, and aggravation that the math standards are being changed back again.

I think when Carolyn & Rudbeckia went through high school (no, maybe when Carolyn did) there was a traditional Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 arrangement.

Then they changed it to two 1 1/2-year long integrated courses.

The awkwardness of the 1 1/2 year structure seems to have driven everyone nuts, so this year (I think) they're going back to the old structure AND they've been influenced by Singapore Math & are trying to reduce the number of topics and teach in more depth.....(I can't say that I see that's happened given the insane content level in Christopher's course, but that's been the goal).

So, is that a lot of changes?

I'm not sure.

The other thing is that math continues to be a headache, in spite of efforts at reform, and everyone knows it.

I get the sense that teachers aren't enthusiastic about more changes, but at the same time aren't thrilled with the structure we have had

But I could be wrong.

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Mar 2006

One of the things I find interesting about teacher anger over testing is how easily they complain about NCLB (much ire around here), but in general, only grumble over the state stuff. I find the state testing more aggravating due to the various things we've talked about here. NCLB certainly has some problems where LD and transferees are involved, but in general it is less demanding in a lot of ways. I could be wrong, though. Like you've noted, parents don't seem to have a clue as to what is really on these tests.

Charles might have more to say about this.

In IL, there are big years for state testing. I believe third grade was one of the big ones because of the writing (6 paragraph essay when my first son went through. It got shrunk to 4 later. I have no idea what it is now.)

Part of the state standards for teachers here also include social and emotional growth, and it is spelled out in detail for them.

I have asked teacher friends at times why they are more aggravated with the federal government than the state legislature, who I think is causing them more grief. I don't usually get an answer.

-- SusanS - 10 Mar 2006

Susan,

My daughter starts fourth grade ISAT on Tuesday. I'm pretty sure it runs through Friday, but I've already recycled the letter the teachers sent home, so I can't check.

I realize that it is a big change of routine for the class, but I think the teachers make too big a deal of it. Last year, the teachers gave every thrid grader a t-shirt that said "I survived the ISAT." It seems that they are constantly sending the kids the message that the ISAT is torture.

I can't remember how the Iowa Tests went when I was a kid. I'm pretty sure they ran at least two days--perhaps more. We didn't follow it up with any celebration of survival. It is not a Hercuelan task. Just do it.

-- DanK - 11 Mar 2006

Last year, the teachers gave every thrid grader a t-shirt that said "I survived the ISAT."

Oh my. I'm not going to tell any of them about that. They'd have them wearing those shirts in a second. You're right, there is a lot of angst about it. I think they've spent at least 2 weeks working on it.

-- SusanS - 11 Mar 2006

Part of the state standards for teachers here also include social and emotional growth, and it is spelled out in detail for them.

IT'S ALWAYS WORSE THAN YOU THINK.

I had NO idea this was already happening.

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

Last year, the teachers gave every thrid grader a t-shirt that said "I survived the ISAT." It seems that they are constantly sending the kids the message that the ISAT is torture.

FUMING

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

The reason NCLB is so much worse is that it requires annual testing.

That is HUGE.

Previously the big tests were in 4th & 8th grades (and I think Susan's right; schools might move social studies to the off-year of 5th grade...)

4th & 8th grades were such a big stress-filled deal that it was said there were teachers who refused to teach those years

I was warned, going in, that 4th grade was going to be tough, entirely because of the testing pressure. (I didn't find it especially different, probably because we had such a terrific teacher the next year, too.)

Suddenly having to test every single year really is a massive change.

WHO MOVED MY CHEESE?????

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

I mentioned on another thread that a friend of ours whom we don't see often told Ed that the town's ready to blow. People are furious, and at least half of them are furious about yearly testing.

I can see why, to tell the truth.

If I weren't the kind of person who does better with some pressure I'd probably be unhappy with what a Big Effing Deal it is.

For me, the math test let me 'pull it all together' in my mind.

I've been hyperfocused on math for quite a while now, but until the test I hadn't been able to develop an internal 'Map of Pre-algebra.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

Ms. K. has spent at least two weeks straight working on the state tests — doing almost nothing new from the book — and IT'S BEEN RIDICULOUS.

What's ridiculous isn't that she devoted two weeks to review.

That was great; this was a terrific opportunity for the kids to PAUSE and CONSOLIDATE WHAT THEY KNOW.

What was ridiculous was that she did tons of stuff that was 'off-topic.'

Dimensional analysis, Challenge problems with no instruction, Math journaling — a huge, vast FWOT.

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

Just to be clear, obviously I'm a huge fan of teaching dimensional analysis to 6th graders.

But eating up a full class period teaching them dimensional analysis FOR THE FIRST TIME ONE WEEK BEFORE THE STATE TEST is ridiculous.

A lot of them will just be more confused, and not one of them will know it well enough to use it.

I've done a fair amount of practice with Christopher on D.A., and he still can't use it spontaneously, and won't be using it on the test.

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

I'm going to give Christopher the Iowa test this spring, on my own recognizance.

Lone Ranger left info on how to do it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

Dan

I can't remember how the Iowa Tests went when I was a kid. I'm pretty sure they ran at least two days--perhaps more. We didn't follow it up with any celebration of survival. It is not a Hercuelan task. Just do it.

no kidding

That's why I told Christopher, No more crying on math tests.

I figured I better nip that one in the bud.

-- CatherineJohnson - 11 Mar 2006

Okay Tracy and Catherine,

I did my homework.

Thanks Susan.

Testing Monday and Tuesday is for "much of the day," followed by more testing Wednesday and Thursday mornings (shorter).

Not as bad as I thought, but still a long time.

I have been told by teachers that they never know what the state will have on the test because they change it in some way almost yearly. For instance, after including a pretty strenuous writing section they up and decided not to have it in anymore.

Gosh, it sounds even worst than NZ's NZQA. You need lazier bureacrats.

-- TracyW - 12 Mar 2006

Last year, the teachers gave every thrid grader a t-shirt that said "I survived the ISAT." It seems that they are constantly sending the kids the message that the ISAT is torture.

Actually, it should be the teachers who wear the shirts not the kids.

I also remember taking the Iowa Basic Skills Tests as a kid and no one worried about them all that much. We were to take them seriously, but no one woried about how stressed we may have gotten because the tests were low stakes.

Fast forward 30 years and now that the tests are high stakes, now everyone worries about the kids' ability to cope.

-- KDeRosa - 13 Mar 2006

You need lazier bureacrats.

LOL!!!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 13 Mar 2006