FearOfFlying < Kitchen

14 Dec 2005 - 04:17

back from Seattle, and fear of flying

I just got back from a (short) trip to Seattle. While I was on the plane, I got to thinking about fear of flying (in the abstract), with which I've been afflicted for ten years or so. I decided it would be fun (and perhaps a bit cathartic) to write about it, even though it's completely off topic.

Six myths and comments about fear-of-flying

Myth 1: you either have it or you don't.

Not so. For many people, including me, it comes on suddenly after years of comfortable flying. In my case, it started when my son was 2 and I was starting to get worried about his development, and peaked when he was diagnosed at around 3. Since then, it's been getting better gradually (like Ben's problems) but hasn't gone away (like Ben's problems). Yes, I do think the phobia has something to do with those other things going on in my life.

I have known several people who developed intense fear-of-flying for a brief period of time, maybe a few months, and then had it vanish again just as suddenly. Mine came on suddenly, like theirs, but will it ever vanish? I should be so lucky.

Myth 2: only irrational people have fear-of-flying.

I wish that were so. I've learned a lot about flying from the scientific viewpoint in my ten years of phobia, and I always knew the statistics were outrageously in my favor. It helps at times to know this stuff, but doesn't cure the problem or even control it very well, if you've got it badly enough. The problem comes from some part of your brain that responds poorly to rational arguments. [Catherine here: we call this the AMYGDALA. I think.]

If I were rational about it, I'd hate landing as much as I hate taking off; but I don't, just because I'm so relieved to be landing.

Myth 3: drinking might help ease fear-of-flying.

I don't know if this helps anyone else, but on the one occasion I tried it, it definitely made things much worse. This is because I cope with my fear-of-flying through concentration, and being buzzed made it impossible to concentrate.

Myth 4: anti-anxiety drugs like Xanax can cure fear-of-flying.

Maybe if you take enough of it to knock you out. I take a small dose of Xanax every time I fly; it doesn't stop the anxiety at all, or even relieve it much. What it does do is to enable me to calm down as soon as we hit smooth air after turbulence. This prevents me from arriving at my destination either a. stoned or b. as useless as a limp noodle from having suffered a 3-hour-long unremitting panic attack.

Myth 5: anti-anxiety drugs are the only thing that can help fear-of-flying.

Not so. Actually my main approach to dealing with fear-of-flying is through something akin to meditating. I don't mean that I say 'om', either in my head or out loud, the whole time I'm flying; but I have mental tricks I apply when I fly.

I have found that even in turbulent rides, crews have gotten much better about trying to find patches of smooth air to ride in for a while. It's critical to calm down as fast as possible after a turbulent stretch, to conserve energy.

The Xanax helps with this, but another thing I do is to remind myself that being on a turbulent ride is like being in labor. When the plane is really rocking, and I am really terrified, I'll tell myself that I'll get a short break soon, that it won't last forever, and that all I have to do is hold on for as long as this patch of turbulence lasts, and then relax completely until the next one. This is the same way you get through a long and difficult labor.

Another trick I apply is to remind myself that being in rough air is like being in a boat in rough water (an idea which doesn't frighten me). Generally the motion of the plane is similar to that of the boat, and I close my eyes and envision that I am in fact in a boat riding waves. This works better if the plane is bobbing up and down than if it's being battered in all directions.

In rough air, I keep my eyes closed. I do this because I hate to see the fuselage flex in turbulence; I find that very disturbing. I also don't want to see fear in the faces of anyone else around me (the calm voices and presence of the crew help a great deal). Mentally shutting out my surroundings and my seatmates is much preferable to what I used to do, which was to grab my neighbor's arm in turbulence and perhaps even piteously ask if I could hold his hand. While I made friends this way, it was a tad humiliating, and I'm not as cute as I used to be, either.

Possibly Myth 6: most people with fear of flying just quit flying.

This is all too often true. I know of people who drive from California to the East Coast every year in order to attend family reunions, because they can't face the flight; it means they have take two weeks of vacation time for a one-week visit. I have friends I haven't seen in years, and may never see again, because they won't fly. I know of people who have made career sacrifices and lost opportunities because they won't fly. I didn't want the phobia to have that big an impact on my life, and I was also afraid that if I quit flying, the phobia would migrate, and I'd become unable to drive or to leave the house. So whatever it is that makes me phobic, I keep it confined to being phobic about airplanes.

There were a couple of years there where I didn't fly. I almost missed a family wedding over it, but went anyway because I had my arm twisted to go, and didn't want to drive (I dread flying, but I still like the way it gets you there faster than anything else).

Then I started traveling again for work. I've flown with my workmates for years, and many were kind enough to hold my hand in turbulence in the bad old days. I had one workmate tell me he admired the way I could become a total unashamed wreck on a flight, then walk off the flight and go do business as usual.

At this time, I fly pretty frequently for work and for family vacations. I'm starting to think I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I still want to see the big cities of Europe.

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Carolyn:
RED ALERT! DON'T READ THIS COMMENT!
AND WELCOME BACK!

I had moderate fear of flying for about.....a year?

Something like that.

It cropped up after a near-miss experience Ed and I had trying to land in London, which took place the same summer there were 3 high-profile plane crashes. (I think it was 3.)

One of those crashes was the Japanese plane that continued flying for something like 40 minutes after the pilots knew they weren't going to be able to re-gain enough altitude to clear the mountain range. They told the passengers, and everyone wrote farewell letters to loved ones.

Some other plane went down thanks to MICROSHIFT WIND SHEAR.

I spent quite awhile running the words MICROSHIFT WIND SHEAR through my head just because I could. I used to say it out loud just to bug Ed.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

this one's OK to read

I read a fascinating narrative by a female book agent who developed fairly severe phobias after a trauma, just as you did.

In her case, IIRC, her husband died, leaving her with small children to raise.

What was interesting about her situation was that her phobias kept changing.

I think she started out with fear of flying, which then became, at some point, fear of elevators.

She cycled through various fears, but all of them came from the original loss of her husband.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

In my case, Jimmy's autism was the cure, not the cause.

He was so difficult to deal with that about 5 seconds after I got on an airplane I was completely absorbed just trying to keep him in his seat.

Jimmy once stopped an airplane cold at the beginning of a take-off. He got up out of his seat, and refused to sit back down, and of course since I wasn't allowed to stand up myself I couldn't physically sit him down from my own sitting position....so the pilot stopped the plane & waited til Jimmy went to the bathroom to take off.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

After the Miami shooting, I realize I need to tell everyone BEFORE I get on an airplane that I have crazed, uncontrollable autistic people flying with me.

WE MAY BE CRAZED, I WILL SAY, BUT WE ARE NOT ARMED.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

Jimmy once went around the metal detectors at the Denver airport (is that the huge one?) without stopping; then, naturally, didn't turn around when the guards started yelling at him to stop. Ed was holding Andrew, who was 3 & shrieking at the top of his lungs.

So Ed started shouting at him, and he did come back; then the guards endlessly searched them, while Andrew carried on screaming.

Ed says, "That was one of my least fun autism experiences."

It was one of my most fun autism experiences, because we'd gotten separated, and I was with Christopher. We had a blast. We had a huge amount of stuff to carry, because I'd been holding a bunch of stuff when we got separated, so we stopped in a toy shop and bought Christopher his own little roller-suitcase, and some toys, and then he rolled our possessions around the airport with him.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

The other thing that happened, on that same trip, was that Jimmy got away from Ed, entered an elevator, AND THE DOORS CLOSED.

This airport is HUGE; it's the size of a small city.

I don't even know how Ed found him again.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

I could go on.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

My fear of flying didn't vanish. It ebbed.

I still don't like to fly, though I'm not scared in the air.

After 9/11 I'd be perfectly happy NEVER to set foot on a plane again.

That's not so much because of the hijackings, but because I obsessively read about airplane safety for two months afterwards.

don't read this part!

One you know the term BOGUS PARTS, flying is never the same.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

book recommendation:

For all you ktm people who don't currently have fear of flying but would like to develop it:

038079330X.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

now, see, that's what they told me about labor, too

then I had back labor

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

you don't get short breaks in back labor

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

I do this because I hate to see the fuselage flex in turbulence

wow

I've never noticed this

I'll have to watch for it next time so I can completely freak myself out

That's what my Weird American No Common Sense-y tells me to do.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

don't read this one either

Schiavo says all the stats about how staggeringly safe you are in an airplane as opposed to driving a car on the ground are bunk.

Apples and oranges.

Like our principal would say.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

She cycled through various fears, but all of them came from the original loss of her husband.

Yep, mine came from Ben's diagnosis. I intuited that if I continued to fly, so that the fear got taken out for exercise now and then, I wouldn't develop one that was a heckuva lot more inconvenient.

-- CarolynJohnston - 14 Dec 2005

You know, I really didn't need to know about MICROSHIFT WIND SHEAR.

Or the Japanese flight where everyone had 40 minutes to write goodbye letters.

Or BOGUS PARTS.

But at least I left you with the notion of fuselages flexing in turbulence. Isn't that a fun one? You can see it if you're at the back of the airplane, especially if you're watching one of those video monitors that hangs from the ceiling.

You and I are really quite a pair.

-- CarolynJohnston - 14 Dec 2005

First, a quick point for the rational part of your mind:

In an airplane, if you approach within a quarter mile of another airplane, that is considered a near miss. In a car, if you do not approach within a quarter mile of another car, that is considered central Montana at 3 am.

The sky is big; even big aircraft are very small.

No help for the subconscious, I know.

Second (and this may be no help to Carolyn, but might help someone else), while I don't suffer from fear of flying, I do suffer from motion sickness. The accepted opinion seems to be that this is largely caused by cognitive dissonance. That is, your eye is telling you one thing while your inner ear is telling you something entirely different. I suspect this to be the primary reason that many pilots have problems with motion sickness while riding in aircraft that goes away when in control of the aircraft.

To mitigate the air sickness, I close my eyes. I also like to play music like bouncy jigs, thunderous symphonies, or heavy metal*. Bobbing my head to the music actually helps; I suspect this is because that's a violent motion that I have another context for, and that it overwhelms the less violent motion of the plane.

* On my shelves, the Beethoven is between the AC/DC and the Clancy Brothers**, in case you were wondering.

** Yes, classical is alphabetized by composer while the rest is alphabetized by artist, but they're all together. It's complex, it's not inconsistent. 8-)

-- DougSundseth - 14 Dec 2005

The sky is big; even big aircraft are very small. No help for the subconscious, I know.

Actually this is one of the things I tell myself in order to keep calm. Another one comes from mathematics; in math you learn that every added dimension gives you (essentially) a great deal of extra room. There is tons of space in the sky once you're up. And at 370000 feet there is tons of space in which to fall before hitting something.

The danger is in taking off and landing, where it's a more two-dimensional situation (you're constrained to specific flight paths).

The subconscious isn't totally beyond the reach of the rational mind, but it's hard work to get it to listen.

-- CarolynJohnston - 14 Dec 2005

Um, I meant 37,000 feet.

At 370,000 feet you're in low earth orbit.

-- CarolynJohnston - 14 Dec 2005

Flying doesn't bother me, but sea travel does. I get stressed once we're far enough away from the shore that I can't swim to shore. And if we're close to a rocky shore I stress about how I would get through the surf and the rocks safely.

And if I go inside I stress about how I would get out if the boat suddenly sank.

Perhaps flying doesn't bother me because my fate is so out of my hands then.

Weirdly enough, the one time I was on a really rough crossing I wasn't scared at all. I and a guy from the group I was travelling with who had iron-cast stomachs spent our trip trying to make everyone else throw up by sharing disgusting stories or eating hot chips in sight of someone who was standing by the rails looking green.

-- TracyW - 14 Dec 2005

"I do this because I hate to see the fuselage flex in turbulence; I find that very disturbing."

When I sit by the wing and see it flex, I think of the S-N metal fatigue graphs I had in college and how much ultimate strength is lost for each million flex cycles. Then I think of stress risers, where fatigue failures usually begin.

One person I know decides on which airline to fly based on their maintenence expenditures.

-- SteveH - 14 Dec 2005

A while ago someone, possibly Professor Irwin Corey, observed that if God had intended us to fly He would have given us tickets.

I can't think of any greater reason to be fearful of flying.

-- RobertStacy - 14 Dec 2005

A while ago someone, possibly Professor Irwin Corey, observed that if God had intended us to fly He would have given us tickets.

I LOVE IT!!!!

THAT'S GOING IN WIT AND WISDOM!!!!

I happen to agree.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I intuited that if I continued to fly, so that the fear got taken out for exercise now and then, I wouldn't develop one that was a heckuva lot more inconvenient.

Interesting.

Yes, she really had her hands full. The phobia just kept......evolving.

An elevator phobia is a huge problem.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

You know, I really didn't need to know about MICROSHIFT WIND SHEAR.

Or the Japanese flight where everyone had 40 minutes to write goodbye letters.

Or BOGUS PARTS.

You and I are really quite a pair.

I TOLD YOU NOT TO READ IT!!!!!!!!

Just forget the whole thing.

I made it all up.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I AM GOING TO BE WATCHING FOR THIS!

you have to be looking at a video monitor?

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

You and I are really quite a pair.

It's true.

I'm just about as hypomanic as you can possibly be without actually being hypomanic.

Plane crashes?

Microshift wind shear?

Flexing fuselages?

I was planning to be TERRIFIED, but I FORGOT!!!!!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

oh my gosh

TWO for Wit and Wisdom in the same thread

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I have motion sickness, too.

It's a brain thing (meaning a genetic thing; some people have it, some don't, and you're born with it).

You could be right about what it takes to trigger it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Tracy

I and a guy from the group I was travelling with who had iron-cast stomachs spent our trip trying to make everyone else throw up by sharing disgusting stories or eating hot chips in sight of someone who was standing by the rails looking green.

You know you'll pay for that, right?

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Steve

Fortunately, I'm not sufficiently well versed in metal fatigue to think of this, but I am, at this point, sufficiently well versed in the mechanics and reliability of THIRTY-FIVE YEAR OLD CARS to spend some time wondering just how great an idea it is to be flying in a 35 year old airplane.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

And of course, there is the issue of bogus parts

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

which I made up

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

there's no such thing as bogus parts

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

You and I are really quite a pair.

Yes, well, this is why God saw fit to give me TWO autistic kids.

Every once in awhile I'll think over that old saying about God never giving you more than you can handle.....

And then I'll think, Well, if I were God, and I had to give someone 2 autistic kids instead of just 1, I'd probably pick me, too.

Just by process of elimination.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Fortunately, I'm not sufficiently well versed in metal fatigue to think of this

Here's an experiment to demonstrate the principle. Get a paper clip, unbend it, and start bending the end back and forth and see how long it takes before teh end snaps off.

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

The danger is in taking off and landing, where it's a more two-dimensional situation (you're constrained to specific flight paths).

wow, that's interesting

As a matter of fact, the danger is in the take-off and landing.

That's where virtually all of the accidents happen (and that's where Ed and I had our near-miss, on a landing attempt).

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

i don't like bridges

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Here's an experiment to demonstrate the principle. Get a paper clip, unbend it, and start bending the end back and forth and see how long it takes before teh end snaps off.

cool!

I've done that before.

But you knew that, didn't you?

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I've done that before, but I never put it together with METAL FATIGUE and FLYING.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

makin' those real world connections!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

My best friend in CA said her strategy for bridges was to jam her foot on the accelerator and pray the car would have enough momentum to sail through the air and land on the opposite shore when the bridge collapsed.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

That's what I do, too.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Right before the Tappan Zee bridge, on the Rockland County side, there's a sign that says, 'Class A & B explosives must take alternate route'

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

EVERY SINGLE TIME I SEE THAT SIGN I THINK:

Class A & B?

So Class C & D are OK?

On the bridge?

Then if I feel like it I start thinking about government regulations, government committees, government audits, government this and government that and wondering just exactly how well they thought the whole Class C & D thing through & whose bright idea it was in the first place.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Steve

Schiavo actually has a terrifically useful chart or website or something telling you exactly which planes are safest & how to figure out when & where they're flying.

Now that I've forgotten I have fear of flying, of course, I've forgotten where all this helpful stuff is.

One thing I do remember: it's the discount airlines that are horrifically unsafe.

Schiavo basically said: DON'T FLY DISCOUNT, EVER.

She said the reason nobody knows how dangerous the discount airlines are is that SOUTHWEST (or Southwestern?) is so good (you can definitely fly SOUTHWEST) that it was pulling the averages up.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

you have to be looking at a video monitor?

No, but you have to be in the back of the plane looking up the aisle and viewing the whole plane as the long, metal cigar tube that it really is. It helps if you have a touch of claustrophobia, too.

Of course it flexes in turbulence. If it stops flexing -- broken paper-clip city.

-- CarolynJohnston - 15 Dec 2005

She said the reason nobody knows how dangerous the discount airlines are is that SOUTHWEST...

And of course, we saw what happened to them in Chicago this week.

-- SusanS - 15 Dec 2005

there's no such thing as bogus parts

Uh-huh. Too late, Catherine, I googled it.

Ok, so your 35-year-old airplane needs a part that the airplane manufacturer no longer makes. You find the part at an airplane salvage yard. Can you use it? After all it came off of the same type of airplane that you want to put it on.

Read more here.

You've probably set my recovery back about 5 years.

-- CarolynJohnston - 15 Dec 2005

ummmmmm

yes, that would be it

My favorite part of the Schiavo book was where she said that the FAA decided to deal with bogus parts by GETTING RID OF THE TERM

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I think they replaced it with something like 'unsourced parts'—that wasn't it, but that was the idea.

NO!

IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN UNDOCUMENTED PARTS!

LIKE UNDOCUMENTED LABORERS!

The idea being, the part is perfectly fine, we just don't happen to know where it came from

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

No big deal

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

My other favorite factoid was that drug dealers in Florida were getting out of drug dealing and getting into bogus parts because there was more money in it

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I am a terrible person

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

first I was mean to Mrs. Roth

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Now I've ended Carolyn's flying career.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Someone stop me before I strike again.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

GOOD MAINTENANCE IS NO ACCIDENT

bwahahahahaha

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

You need to be WAY more hypomanic

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I'll add another few data points on the "flying is pretty safe" side:

Airliners can generally fly without any problem after losing one engine. Four-engined airliners can generally fly level after losing two engines. Even if the plane loses all of its engines, airliners have glide ratios of somewhere around 20:1. That is, if an airliner loses all its engines, it will drop about 1 foot for every 20 feet it goes forward.

Now if you are 30000 feet above the ground (say flying at 37000 feet above high plains at 7000 feet), you can glide about 120 miles before you get down to the ground. There are darned few routes flown by airliners that are without an airport within 120 miles.

For example, try tracing a great-circle route from NYC to London (string on a globe is the usual way) and see how much of the trip is over land or very close to land.

-- DougSundseth - 15 Dec 2005

Class A & B must be a NYS thing. Federal DOT has Division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc. The NYS regs refer to "Division 1.1, 1.2, or 1.3 (Class A & B)", but the US DOT regs merely refer to "Division 1.1, 1.2, or 1.3 (explosives)". More at http://hazmat.dot.gov/ .

Curiously, New York State regulates its hazmat under the Department of Labor.

-- KtmGuest - 15 Dec 2005

Those darn few routes that are without an airport in 120 miles however includes pretty much every flight across the Pacific.

Including every international flight to or from New Zealand.

How long do planes float for?

-- TracyW - 15 Dec 2005

Why would anyone want to go to New Zealand?

8-)

But the answer is "a really long time", if the plane ditches well. It's made of aluminum (and designed for low mass) and constructed to hold air in; holding water out is much easier.

And if you have even one working engine, the "glide" ratio goes to something like 100:1 (or 600 miles in the scenario mentioned earlier).

-- DougSundseth - 15 Dec 2005

(I should perhaps mention that my parents vacation in NZ semi-regularly. My first comment was just a joke; I'd actually really like to go to NZ sometime.)

-- DougSundseth - 15 Dec 2005

Was that what happened to that Japanese flight?

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Carolyn!
Get out of here!
Stop reading right now!

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

ktm guest

hi!

all I want to know is, if I'm driving on the Tappan Zee Bridge when a Class C or D explosive blows, am I driving into water?

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

And of course, we saw what happened to them in Chicago this week.

Nobody died, though.

Right?

(Or did I just make that up?)

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Wit and Wisdom

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Nobody in the airplane, but there was a death in the car hit by the airplane. (See, driving a car is much more dangerous.)

8-)

"Was that what happened to that Japanese flight?"

Sorry, don't recognize the reference.

-- DougSundseth - 16 Dec 2005

It was the flight where they knew they were going to hit a mountain range for 40 minutes, and the passengers wrote farewell letters to loved ones.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I was a member of Plane Safe for awhile.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

controlled flight into terrain

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I'd forgotten that one.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I have difficulty believing that "they knew they were going to hit a mountain range for 40 minutes". Airliners stall (the wings stop flying) at around 90 mph to 200 mph in level flight (depending on model and a few other factors). That would mean that they were at least 60 miles from the mountains (D = R * T) when they gave up hope.

There are two common scenarios for mountain crashes:

1) The pilot doesn't know where he is and flies into a "cloud with rocks".

2) The pilot enters a rising valley too narrow to turn around in and can't climb fast enough to get over the end of the valley.

Neither of these matches a 40 minute warning, even in a power-off glide. They're also pilot-error crashes characteristic of inexperienced private pilots, not professionals.

-- DougSundseth - 16 Dec 2005

"One of the most disturbing and continuing errors committed by a flight crew is called CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain)."

That beats edu-blah-blah

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Notice how I slid that real-world math in there? Dang I'm good.

8-)

-- DougSundseth - 16 Dec 2005

I never heard of this one.

LANGUAGE BARRIERS/NON-ASSERTIVE BEHAVIOR

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Let me think what years this was.....

I'm thinking 20 years ago.

1985

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

It'll be interesting to see how wildly off my memory was.....

I have a strong memory that they plane hit a mountain (which doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?) and that they knew they were going to hit the mountain for a long time before they did hit it

the number '40' sticks in my head, but that strikes me as something that could be completely 'made up' (the mountain doesn't 'feel' reconstructed)

the passengers knowing they were going to die & writing letters to loved ones is vivid, because during the period over London when people on our flight thought maybe we were going to crash I thought about those people and contemplated telling Ed that I loved him

(which I didn't do. I knew that THE LAST THING ON EARTH HE WANTED TO HEAR RIGHT THAT MOMENT WAS 'LOVE YOU, IT'S BEEN GREAT, BYE!')

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Actually, what I would really like to know is what happened to Flight 587.

Do we know?

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Notice how I slid that real-world math in there? Dang I'm good.

Hey!

There's a groovy Connecting Math Discovery Problem for you!

It's not as good as the one about when the guy on the ferris wheel can drop his partner into water.

Nothing's going to top that.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Sounds like it would have to be this one, but there's no mention of people writing letters.

I remember that so vividly; it was a horrifying story.

Now I'm wondering if it happened, and, if it didn't happen, how it got pieced together in my memory??

12 August 1985; Japan Air Lines 747SR; Mt. Ogura, Japan: The aircraft had a sudden decompression that damaged hydraulic systems and the vertical fin. That damage also disabled the flight controls for the rudder and elevator. All 15 crew members and 505 of the 509 passengers were killed.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Actually, it sounds like it did happen.....though I haven't found the details I remember.

BBC report

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

oh boy

I remembered it right

(Carolyn, seriously, just don't read this.)

Doug, if you want the link, I'll send via email.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

From an article on The New American:

The worst single-plane accident in aviation history occurred on August 12, 1985, when Japan Air Lines Flight 123 (a 747) suffered massive structural failure, which destroyed its hydraulic systems. After more than 30 minutes, during which the pilot tried to control the aircraft with engine power alone, JAL 123 smashed into a mountain in central Japan, killing 520 of the 524 persons on board. One of the four survivors was Umi Ochiai, an off-duty JAL flight attendant. She discussed her ordeal five days after the crash, telling reporters that, after an initial burst of panic, the "passengers followed the crew's instructions to put on life vests" in preparation for a possible crash landing in water. (Reuters dispatch, Salt Lake Tribune, August 17, 1985.)

There's a motherlode of information at the JAL 123 Wikipedia entry.

-- KtmGuest - 16 Dec 2005

And if you want to pay $1.99, you can read the TIME Magazine feature story on the JAL 123 crash.

-- KtmGuest - 16 Dec 2005

She discussed her ordeal five days after the crash, telling reporters that, after an initial burst of panic, the "passengers followed the crew's instructions to put on life vests" in preparation for a possible crash landing in water. (Reuters dispatch, Salt Lake Tribune, August 17, 1985.)

yeah

I remember EVERYONE universally being horrified by the whole thing.

We flew to Europe—gosh it must have been within a week or two—and then had a funky landing experience in England.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

ktm guest

you're GOOD

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I am a level 42 Google Master.

-- KtmGuest - 16 Dec 2005

Group therapy, right?

This is some kind of group shock therapy cure for flying phobia Catherine's cooked up, isn't it?

-- CarolynJohnston - 16 Dec 2005

I am a level 42 Google Master.

OK, you don't get to make statements like that and BE ANONYMOUS!

UNMASK YOURSELF!

WHO ARE YOU!

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Carolyn!
WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE???
GO AWAY!

I'm serious.

I didn't post any of that Japan stuff; I emailed it to Doug.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I'm not kidding.

I could get fear of flying all over again just reading that stuff.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I'm just reading the comments -- not following the links.

The comments are bad enough.

Anyway, the good side as well as the bad side of the flying phobia is that it's not rational. I don't think reading about air disasters can actually make it any worse.

Also, my nightmares aren't about flying around placidly, knowing I'm going to be finished when we fly into the mountainside.

They are all about the plane suddenly having a wing fall off, or suddenly turning into a nosedive.

Remember the business with the tailfins on the 737s causing nosedives? Now that got to me.

-- CarolynJohnston - 16 Dec 2005

"One of the most disturbing and continuing errors committed by a flight crew is called CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain)."

The problem is not the airplane, it's the ground.

-- SteveH - 16 Dec 2005

Actually, small planes scare me, not large planes. Did you ever notice that when a small plane goes down, everyone says how careful and experienced the pilot was?

-- SteveH - 16 Dec 2005

No offense Doug.

I was going to comment that if you were born in NZ, it's the most cost-effective way of getting away.

And then sometimes circumstances drag you back. Silly things like visas.

-- TracyW - 16 Dec 2005

Definitely, small planes seem to be the worst.

I have had several extremely harrowing experiences in small planes, too.

And then there was the time in a DC-10 in the mid-80s when an emergency exit door fell in my lap when we landed, I kid you not.

But I don't think these experiences had anything to do with my flying phobia.

-- CarolynJohnston - 16 Dec 2005

Although the small plane mishaps do explain why I won't set foot in a small plane anymore.

-- CarolynJohnston - 16 Dec 2005

Actually, small planes scare me, not large planes. Did you ever notice that when a small plane goes down, everyone says how careful and experienced the pilot was?

I thought they always said he was 'quiet' and didn't talk to the neighbors.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

The problem is not the airplane, it's the ground.

Right.

That's what I don't like about it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Small planes & discount airlines.

Just stay the he** away from them.

That's my philosophy.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

This is a story told by Victor Borge on one of his DVDs. (as best as I can remember)

After a concert in New Zealand, he had to take a night flight to Australia in an old 4 propeller plane. After take-off, the passengers noticed a problem with one of the engines. The pilot shut it down, but told the passengers that everything was OK. They would just get to their destination 30 minutes later. Not long after that, a second engine had to be shut down. Once again, the pilot reassured them that everything is still OK. They still had two engines, but it would take some more time to get to the airport. The passengers got a little nervous, but everything was fine. Later on, the passengers noticed that a third engine was shut down. Now, they began to panic. The pilot told them that everything was still OK and that the plane is designed to fly with only one engine. He apologized that it just would take some more time to get to the airport. Most people calmed down a little, except for one woman who complained that if they lost another engine, they would be up there all night.

-- SteveH - 16 Dec 2005

Most people calmed down a little, except for one woman who complained that if they lost another engine, they would be up there all night.

give that lady a copy of MINDBENDERS!

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

When I was pregnant with Jimmy I flew to Toronto to do a talk show there.

Ed's cousin lived in Toronto, so he took me out to a comedy club.

EVERY SINGLE COMEDIAN without fail did a routine about flying in tiny propellor planes.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

My sister lived in Kenya for quite awhile, and her husband had to fly in ANCIENT KENYAN PROPELLOR PLANES SOMETIMES INTO STRIFE-TORN AREAS.

She was a nervous wreck.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Light aircraft can be a little dangerous, but not like back-country skiing or riding a motorcycle.

(I should perhaps mention that I was in the Civil Air Patrol for a time, that my dad has a Commercial Pilot's license with instrument rating, and that he's owned two different light aircraft, one of which I helped him build.)

Flying, and especially General Aviation, attracts the adventurous, but rewards the cautious. ("There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there ain't no old, bold pilots.") Nearly all light aircraft accidents are caused by a pilot who knows better than to do what he did.

They're similar in many ways to times when a driver will hit a blizzard in the middle of the night, and decide to press on because "it's only another hundred miles". Of course, this usually works (for both pilot and driver), which tends to reinforce the bad decision.

-- DougSundseth - 16 Dec 2005

hey, forget about Japan

I had a WINGTIP TO WINGTIP BRUSH RIGHT HERE AT O'HARE

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Flying, and especially General Aviation, attracts the adventurous, but rewards the cautious.

This could be my motto.

scratch that

This OUGHT TO BE my motto.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

one of my favorite turns of phrase (I know this will sound strange) was 'got himself into a square box'—I think that was it

It was used to describe what probably happened to JFK Jr.

(Is that the expression???)

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

"it's only another hundred miles". Of course, this usually works (for both pilot and driver), which tends to reinforce the bad decision

ummm

it's just as well I don't have a pilot's license

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

WebLogForm
Title:	back from Seattle, and fear of flying
TopicType:	WebLog
SubjectArea:	OffTopic
LogDate:	200512132317

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back from Seattle, and fear of flying

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