25 Sep 2005 - 17:01

grammar question

What is the complete subject of this sentence?

While taking the dog for a walk, she stepped in poop.

Thank you in advance.

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Who stepped in poop? She. She is your complete subject.

Now if you had:

While taking the dog for a walk, the slovenly, yet impish courtesan stepped in poop.

The simple subject would be "courtesan"(the noun alone.) The complete subject would be "courtesan," plus all of its modifiers: the slovenly, yet impish courtesan.

I think.

-- SusanS - 25 Sep 2005

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"While taking the dog for a walk" is a verbal(a participial phrase with "walking" as the participle, I believe.)

A verbal is a verb form used as some other part of speech. There are three kinds: gerunds, participles, and infinitives.

A present participle always ends with ing and is an adjective.

...I think...

Also, if you rearrange the sentence sometimes that helps:

She stepped in poop while walking the dog.

You can more easily see "She" as the subject.

-- SusanS - 25 Sep 2005

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Hmmm.

Boy oh boy, you're gonna have to take on Grammar Duties around here.

I thought the complete subject was 'While taking the dog for a walk, she.'

I have a ways to go.

A LONG ways.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Sep 2005

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Oh hell.

A verbal.

Just what I need.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Sep 2005

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This is worse than math.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Sep 2005

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This may be why people think math IS language.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Sep 2005

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Here's another question:

Now that you rearranged the sentence, I can see that 'while walking the dog' is part of the predicate.

But is it a compound predicate?

I'm thinking no, but obviously I DON'T KNOW ANY GRAMMAR.

-- CatherineJohnson - 25 Sep 2005

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You've clearly done quite well without it, that's for sure.

Oh no, I am not the grammar diva! Now that I'm looking at it I think you might be right. Since "While walking the dog" is a participial phrase modifying the subject "she," then I think it would have to be part of the complete subject. I mislead you by moving stuff around.

Soooo...I think you have to be right.

You DO know your grammar. You can skip all of this!

-- SusanS - 25 Sep 2005

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So, for my other sentence:

While walking the dog, the slovenly, yet impish courtesan stepped in poop.

The complete subject would have to be While walking the dog, the slovenly, yet impish courtesan stepped in poop.

Where's Doug when you need him.

-- SusanS - 25 Sep 2005

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Okay, a simple predicate is the verb(s) alone. The complete predicate is all of the modifiers of the verb(s). I suppose a compound predicate is more than one verb like, "He cleaned the house and washed the dishes."??

Or...She walked the dog and stepped in poop. Is that a compound predicate? I think so...

It seems very quiet in mathland....

-- SusanS - 25 Sep 2005

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Yes, your example is a compound predicate. "Susan taught math and diagrammed sentences!" Here is a compound subject: "Carolyn and Catherine study math education."

FWIW,I am just learning grammar with my kids. But I think the clause, "while taking the dog for a walk" is some type of adverb phrase. I have no idea what it is called. I think it has something to do with the verb because it is telling "when" she stepped. Anyway, your sentence skeleton would be "She stepped".

-- LoneRanger - 26 Sep 2005

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Lone Ranger,

It's been a while since I did grammar with my kids, but I was thinking the exact same thing you were about the phrase, "While taking the dog for a walk." It seemed to me to be modifying the verb stepped. But I went to the dailygrammar.com site and checked out the verbals and what made them different, and they seemed to be pointing to the phrase being an adjective (present participle.) If you get a chance, go check it out. I would love to know what you think. Maybe I misread the examples.

This is going to bug me to death.

Okay, I think I was thrown by the ing of "taking." It does look to be an adverbial phrase, making it part of the complete predicate. Check here: http://dailygrammar.com/261to265.shtml

I think...

Yep. I should have stuck with my first partial answer and just pretended to ignore the other part. Heh.

-- SusanS - 26 Sep 2005

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As per Errors In English and Ways to Correct Them, Harry Shaw, Barnes and Noble Books, Second Edition, 1970... (sorry, can't find my always preferred Strunk and White at the moment.

Subject: The person or thing (noun, pronoun, noun phrase, noun clause) about which a statement or assertion is made in a sentence or clause. A simple subject is the noun or pronoun alone. A complete subject is a simple subject with together with its modifiers. A compound subject consists of two or more nounds, pronouns, noun phrases, nound clauses.

The green house is for sale. (Simple subject)

The green house on the hill is for sale. (Complete subject)

The green house and two acres of land are for sale (Compound subject)

What you say and what you do are no concern of mine. (Compound Subject)

In our subject sentence:

While taking the dog for a walk, she stepped in poop.

We have only a simple subject, she. While taking the dog for a walk is (assuming I've got my brief refresher research correct) a participial phrase.

-- RayMinchew - 26 Sep 2005

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Hi Ray!

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Sep 2005

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I'm gonna go with SIMPLE SUBJECT ONLY: SHE.

Boy, I'm wishing math were more like ELA, at the moment.

Obviously I know just about no grammar (parts of speech, indirect & direct object, and that's about it).

But I managed to learn to write grammatically with ease.

I'd love to learn math that easily.

-- CatherineJohnson - 26 Sep 2005

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"Obviously I know just about no grammar (parts of speech, indirect & direct object, and that's about it).

"But I managed to learn to write grammatically with ease."

See, this is why most formal grammar instruction is at best useless and at worst actively harmful. It's not just you, it's true for most people.

If you are doing comparitive linguistics, it can be useful to understand formal classification thoroughly; for a native speaker writing in his own language, a far-more-limited subset should be taught.

"Where's Doug when you need him."

Sleeping through football games with a fever, for what it's worth. I agree that the subject of the sentence is "she", but I'd have to do research to try to figure out what to call that first clause. It looks to me like a clause that restricts the verb.

FWIW, here's my take --

Subject: "She" Verb: "stepped in" Restrictive clause: "while taking the dog for a walk" Object: "poop"

-- DougSundseth - 27 Sep 2005

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I'm thinking this is a STARK illustration of the fact that math is not language.

NO ONE learns to do math the way I learned to do grammatical writing. (Right?)

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Sep 2005

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Boy, good question. I think not.

Steven Pinker says language is an instinct. I don't think algebra is an instinct.

-- CarolynJohnston - 27 Sep 2005