Comments

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I agree with the original poster of the top block quote on this page.

He (or she; the author's name is "Brett") is talking about the five or six years before the child ever enters formal schooling.

I would take it a step further than "they’ll be ready to learn how to read when they get to school" and say that there is no reason that a child of normal intelligence and abilities should not already be reading before he/she enters first grade.

What on earth are these kids doing for their first five years? What a waste of time and opportunity!

But the fact is, every kid has a limited window of opportunity here: if we miss it, their potential for literacy, and with it an education and a shot at a good life, shrinks dramatically. There are no do-overs – we get one shot, and that’s it.

Unfortunately, the schools will still have to deal with the consequences of parents' failure to prepare their children for school (and failure to feed them, too, in some cases).

I don't think anyone here on KTM is the target for that rant.

-- GoogleMaster - 05 May 2006

Well, let us hope you will NOT get flamed here at ktm.....

The problem with this post, especially coming from a teacher, is a couple of things:

• he's focusing on the impossibility of teaching disadvantaged kids

• he's not focusing on the folks who are actually teaching disadvantaged kids (KIPP, et al)

• in sum: this is blame-shifting & excuse-making. If a job is hard to do, that makes it all the more worth doing - and all the more worth thinking about how to do it (IMO!)

• The notion of a limited window of opportunity is simply wrong. There is no critical period for reading; I'm not sure humans have critical periods for anything apart from acquiring a native accent when speaking a foreign language.

Do kids know how to read when they go to school?

Christopher didn't.....I don't think I know any other kids who did...

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 May 2006

here's my feeling 'in a nutshell'

When the people whose job it is to teach disadvantaged kids spend their time talking about how it can't be done, we're looking at a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's one thing for pundits and interested parties (like us) to say it can't be done.

It's another for a teacher to say it can't be done.

Think about physicians who treat cancer.

We don't have a cure for cancer. Curing a person's cancer really is an impossible job.

But if you had cancer, and you had a choice between a doctor who spends his spare hours blogging about how nobody can cure cancer and a doctor blogging about new research, improved rates of remission, etc., which doctor would you choose?

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 May 2006

Either schools can teach the basics (and I'm talking basics) or they cannot. Because there is a correlation doesn't mean that the schools cannot do the job without parental help.

I can perhaps see that life would be easier for all if the parents took a stronger role, but the kids are in school for 6+ hours a day for 180 days a year. Perhaps learning to read benefits most from parental involvement, but everything else? I am just amazed when I look at NAEP and other standardized test questions and results. This is not rocket science.

The worse of a job that the school does, the stronger is the correlation between success and parental involvement.

-- SteveH - 05 May 2006

"Sure, it's great to have parents who make sure their children do their homework and who are willing to pitch in when necessary in the classroom or on field trips. But let's be honest--some parents are, well, kind of a pain in the butt. They call and call--I guess now they email and email--and their concerns are often, "Why isn't my child getting an A in your class?" regardless of whether the student deserves an A."

Yup. He/She want parents that will make up for bad teaching, bake cookies, and shut up. The crack about parents who call about 'A's is what I call a preemptive remark. I have seen plenty. It is used to keep parents in their places. They say it right to your face. Most of the parents I know give the teachers a HUGE amount of leeway and don't give teachers any flack at all. Yup. I've heard this all before.

-- SteveH - 05 May 2006

Do kids know how to read when they go to school?

Christopher didn't.....I don't think I know any other kids who did...

I started kindergarten already able to read. My mom says that I learned from watching Sesame Street.

Of the 30 kids in my kindergarten class, 3 of us knew how to read.

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 05 May 2006

But if you had cancer, and you had a choice between a doctor who spends his spare hours blogging about how nobody can cure cancer and a doctor blogging about new research, improved rates of remission, etc., which doctor would you choose?

It's even worse than this. Unlike curing many cancers which are presently uncurable, we do know how to teach many lower performing kids. It's just that educators don't like the methods and/or ideology behind those methods so they not only refuse to use them, they blog about how hopeless the situation is.

-- KDeRosa - 05 May 2006

Sesame street must have been better when I was a kid, becuase on today's sesame street the only thing they teach are letter names, it is very whole-languagy.

I think Rudbeckia's numbers are close to what I've read elsewhere, about 5-10% of kids will learn to read with little or no formal instruction.

I also posted on the Dehavilland post and Brett left two comments which clarify his position.

-- KDeRosa - 05 May 2006

The worse of a job that the school does, the stronger is the correlation between success and parental involvement.

That's a good way of putting it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 May 2006

I started kindergarten already able to read. My mom says that I learned from watching Sesame Street.

wow-interesting

I wonder if there are lots more hyperlexic kids now that we have shows like Sesame Street??

I apparently learned from looking at the words on the page while my mom read books to me.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 May 2006

The crack about parents who call about 'A's is what I call a preemptive remark. I have seen plenty. It is used to keep parents in their places. They say it right to your face.

they get nowhere using this one on me, which of course doesn't lead to Friendly Relations with the school

last year, at the Parent Math Uprising, every single parent prefaced her comment or question with the words, "I don't care if my child gets As."

They had to say this, because the entire evening was premised on the idea that Parents Wanting Their Kids To Get As was wrong.

I was primed to say "I care if my child gets As" but they refused to call on me.

And this was back before they had any idea who I was.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 May 2006

It's even worse than this. Unlike curing many cancers which are presently uncurable, we do know how to teach many lower performing kids. It's just that educators don't like the methods and/or ideology behind those methods so they not only refuse to use them, they blog about how hopeless the situation is.

YES!

I should have said that.

I think about all the incredible psychiatrists we've seen over the years.

Now these guys were confronting a truly impossible task: trying to treat severely autistic children with psychotropic medications.

There isn't a single medication approved for autism on the market, and when we first saw psychiatrists the professional consensus was that autism could not be treated medically.

We saw doctors who tried.

Our first doctor told us - I remember it 'like it was yesterday' - "I believe in medication trials for these kids."

I was shocked, but God was I glad to hear that.

We've had one doctor after another take on the challenge that our kids presented and make a difference.

I have no problem with people complaining about their jobs. I complain about my own job way too much to object.

I have a big problem with people blaming everyone else for the fact that their jobs are hard.

And I have a major problem with people collecting a paycheck while publicly stating that the job they're being paid to do can't be done.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 May 2006

Brett's clarifying comments are great!

Though I can see that I'm going to have to get my material on IQ posted SOON!

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 May 2006

This reminds me of my first "language and literacy" class in my second year of uni. We were all to bring in the first book we read so we could discuss them. (A waste of time.)

I chose the Twins of St Clares by Enid Blyton. (Originally for 'older' readers.) I read this independantly at 3 1/2.

As we went around the room, everyone is holding up PSB, and they are saying very late ages for reading them. One student had her parents read her PSB to her at age 8.

So I'm getting more and more embarassed, first for them, then for me, because I'm clearly the odd one out. I briefly tell about my book and the teacher is fascinated.

"Wow, that's so wonderful! You must have taught yourself to read! You must be very clever."

"My mum taught me how to read."

"Yes, she must have immersed you in the world of books from a young age."

"She taught me using phonics."

"Oh yes, that's ONE way of teaching reading." And she quickly moved on. I would have found it funny except straight education degrees who were straight from school agreed with everything she said. Quite scary.

(Originally posted at KDeRosa^?'s blog) http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=25541994&postID=114641097372254735

-- SamanthaRawson - 06 May 2006

I chose the Twins of St Clares by Enid Blyton. (Originally for 'older' readers.) I read this independantly at 3 1/2.

that's amazing!

I had no idea you could use phonics to teach kids that young....

This makes me wonder whether hyperlexic kids are actually using phonics - but are managing to pick phonics up incidentally??

incredible

I'd love to know how it works when kids learn to read through whole language - does it mainly just slow them down??

Or does it radically add to the confusion?

(or both - I imagine there are more bulletproof & less bulletproof kids...)

I love it that phonics can be openly acknowledged as 'one way' of learning how to read.

If it's "one way" of learning how to read then clearly it is A WAY of learning to read, and it ought to be part of a teacher's knowledge base & available teaching strategies.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 May 2006

My mom tells me I learned to read when I was two -- and she has no idea how, because I was a second child and she certainly didn't have time to do it. Heh. They certainly read to us a lot, and even as an adult I am an avid pattern-finder.

She tells me that I used to ask for the weather page in the newspaper and she always figured I liked to look at the pictures on it, etc. And then she realized that I was actually reading it.

Audrey is just shy of 2 and a half, and I've been watching to see what she picks up on her own, and what she's receptive to learning. The "ABC" song was always one of her favorites, and the first song she could sing on her own. It only took a few views of the Leapfrog Letter Factory video while I made dinner before she started figuring out letter sounds.

Last week, she picked up her little "Wild Animal Baby" mini-magazine that she has a subscription to and -- totally unprompted by us, we were too busy picking our jaws up from the floor -- said, "Wuh Ih Ull Duh" and then a few more times, squishing them together quicker and quicker, like the old Sesame Street skit.

I mean, we are a big phonicsy household, we're always talking about letters and when we read to her, we pick out words that are interesting to her -- dog, cat, Mama, etc -- and show her how they are sounded out. Now when she sees one of those words on a sign or in a book, she'll point to it and say, for instance, "D! o! g! spells dog!"

Her current favorite activity is to go on the computer and "play type" which means picking a word, telling it to Mama, and Mama spelling it for her while she types it. It's mind-blowing to see how much she is absorbing.

Also -- Owen Patrick Wheeler was born at home early Thursday morning [1.48am]. 8lb, 15oz. There were some complications, but everyone made it through OK and we're healing nicely.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thewheelers/141593387/

-- TerriWheeler - 07 May 2006

Congratulations Terri! Emmett (now three) weighed exactly the same as Owen. Big kids! Glad to hear it all turned out fine.

-- StephanieO - 07 May 2006

Congratulations Terri! Especially at 8 lb, 15 oz

I would take it a step further than "they’ll be ready to learn how to read when they get to school" and say that there is no reason that a child of normal intelligence and abilities should not already be reading before he/she enters first grade.

I didn't learn how to read until school, though Mum or Dad read to us every night, we visited the library every week (Saturday mornings went supermarket then library), and they had to keep putting up new bookshelves with all the books they bought (they still do this).

More generally, it doesn't make sense that parents reading a lot is vital to teaching kids to read and write. Writing is an invention, and within recorded human history literacy rates were much lower than they are now. Since a child cannot have been exposed to a high reading background if their parents/guardians weren't literate, then according to the theory that parental involvement is critical we'd see literacy rates only rising very slowly as the few people who could learn to read spread amongst the population, married illiterates and raised their own children. Instead, there are literacy rates rising from 50% of women and 70% for men in 1850 to over 90% for both genders by 1900.

-- TracyW - 07 May 2006

Yay Terri! Congrats!

-- SusanS - 07 May 2006

OH MY GOD!!!!!

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 May 2006

ok, Terri, that's big-time hyperlexia!

The good kind, obviously!

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 May 2006

Tracy - great point

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 May 2006

topost literacyrates

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 May 2006

Here's another flip side that I discovered from attending board of ed meetings: if the kids score great on state tests, the parents have nothing to do with it (we must be one terrific school system), but when you have a few bad years in a row, it's the parents fault and the kids need to "take ownership" for their learning.

The Principal told parents at Open House for kindergartners that we could not come in to the classroom until January. They need to "build a community" and parents are too disruptive.

I'm one of those parents that call the teachers and ask them to stop giving my kid As for such substandard work. They've figured out that parents don't complain if the kids get As -- voila he's getting all As and received High Honors in Honors Algebra (8th grade), but couldn't do three problems correctly on the first level of Singapore Math's 7th grade placement test.

Can I say, I am SOOO glad I found this website.

-- LynnGuelzow - 09 May 2006

Hi Lynne!

welcome!

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

topost boardmeetings

boy, I'm getting stacked up on stuff to post on the front page!

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

Here's another flip side that I discovered from attending board of ed meetings: if the kids score great on state tests, the parents have nothing to do with it (we must be one terrific school system), but when you have a few bad years in a row, it's the parents fault and the kids need to "take ownership" for their learning.

oh ditto that!!!!!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

They've figured out that parents don't complain if the kids get As -- voila he's getting all As and received High Honors in Honors Algebra (8th grade), but couldn't do three problems correctly on the first level of Singapore Math's 7th grade placement test.

I love it!

Of course our problem with the middle school is punitive grading....which sparked the Parent Uprising against Ms. K's Phase 4 math class last year.

Just about the only change she's made this year is to make it possible for kids to get Bs instead of Ds.

So now I'm "the only parent who's complained."

(I don't believe that for one second, btw; I happen to know personally at least one other parent who's complained.....)

But we don't have a Parent Uprising.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

Yesterday yet another person at the school told me she's "opposed to standardized testing."

My neighbor, the statistician, said, "I want to see data and evidence. I don't want to hear anyone's opinion on standardized testing; I want to see evidence for why standardized testing is bad."

ditto

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

Standardized testing is not inherently evil, nor is it a panacea for everything that is wrong with the public schools. Here in Connecticut, standardized testing consists of testing based on the constructivist math approach only. Our kids do fine until they get to "real" math (like the SAT or AP calculus) and then we are all bewildered why our exceptional math students score so poorly.

Here's an example from the 6th grade portion of the Connecticut State test (I kid you not):

You pay for an item costing 40¢ item with a $1.00 bill. Show all the different ways you could get your 60¢ change with combinations of only nickels, dimes and quarters.

-- LynnGuelzow - 09 May 2006

"Show all the different ways you could get your 60¢ change...."

All? You (they) mean including coming up with another dime and a nickel and asking for three quarters in change?

That's appalling. It's a tedious and unreasonable question. You'd get the same understanding of the student's capabilities if you were to ask for (say) five different ways you could get the change back, and it would be easier to grade, to boot.

Note that I say this as a strong supporter of norm-based testing. I want to know which schools are actually doing a decent job, so that I can make reasoned decisions for my son.

But that just isn't a good test item.

-- DougSundseth - 09 May 2006

"Show all the different ways you could get your 60¢ change with combinations of only nickels, dimes and quarters."

Note that they say "combinations".

Does that mean that six dimes and 12 nickels doesn't quality? I love these ambiguities.

-- CharlesH - 09 May 2006

Illinois has the same thing going on as far as standardized tests. The tests and the curriculums are starting to match up in a way that suggests the creators of both are one and the same. A lot more language-based questions, a lot of probability and statistics, and a lot less arithmetic.

Some teachers, however, think it's just great. They should be required to pay the Kumon and Sylvan bills when it's all said and done.

-- SusanS - 09 May 2006

Can anyone explain to me why the test question provided the answer of 60 cents to begin with? At 6th grade, a kid should be able to subtract the 40 cents on their own, shouldn't they? Well, my 3rd grader could do it.

But, given that this is one of the released questions posted on the Dept of Ed's website, I gotta think they had a reason for doing it this way, but I'm stumped. When the state shows AYP based on questions like this, is there any reason to feel confidence that our standardized testing is set at an appropriate level?

-- LynnGuelzow - 09 May 2006

Here's an example from the 6th grade portion of the Connecticut State test (I kid you not):

You pay for an item costing 40¢ item with a $1.00 bill. Show all the different ways you could get your 60¢ change with combinations of only nickels, dimes and quarters.

blech

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

Can anyone explain to me why the test question provided the answer of 60 cents to begin with? At 6th grade, a kid should be able to subtract the 40 cents on their own, shouldn't they? Well, my 3rd grader could do it.

Good question.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

But, given that this is one of the released questions posted on the Dept of Ed's website, I gotta think they had a reason for doing it this way, but I'm stumped.

Charles can explain it better than I can.

It's a constructivist question. The point is to have many answers, not just "one right answer."

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 May 2006

The point is to have many answers, not just "one right answer."

As written, there is presumably exactly one right answer. Specifically, you need to list every possible combination of nickels, dimes, and quarters that adds up to 60¢. If you're right about the goal, the question fails to test even that.

-- DougSundseth - 09 May 2006

You pay for an item costing 40¢ item with a $1.00 bill. Show all the different ways you could get your 60¢ change with combinations of only nickels, dimes and quarters.

Can anyone explain to me why the test question provided the answer of 60 cents to begin with? At 6th grade, a kid should be able to subtract the 40 cents on their own, shouldn't they? Well, my 3rd grader could do it.

This reminds me of the Teaching Math Through the Years chestnut that is all over the web.

-- GoogleMaster - 09 May 2006

differentiatedinstruction

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2006