Comments

YES! I noticed this too. It seems Ben needs us even more now than he did when he was younger -- even though he also wants to pull away.

-- CarolynJohnston - 20 May 2006

Triple wow. I know I'm stopping by KTM as a Johnny one-note on this summarizing thing... but that middleweb page was amazing and timely for me. It really connects the dots for me that our elementary school teachers are trying to set up a miniature junior high school here, complete with daily planners and high expectations for children to prove themselves as capable Independent Learners(TM) with fully functioning frontal lobes performing executive functions.

I often hear teachers say, "Well I told them to write that assignment down in their agenda" or "I told the class that this report needed to be 400 words". Just "telling them" appears to pass the responsibility on to these 10-14 year olds

Teachers are being hoist by their own petards. They want to run classrooms where the children make their own discoveries and contruct their own meaning and no one answer is right. But it turns out that this pedagogy requires enormous amounts of... hovering over every student, for it to be effective. It reminds me of the quip about the Socratic Method without Socrates.

Maybe we all require hovering from time to time- could it be part of human nature?

Ah, the constrained vision rears its ugly head.

(Sylwester) is a cutting-edge translator of brain research

You can get teachers to do anything if you can convince them it is translated from "brain research". In this situation, I think it can be helpful, but it has also resulted in abuses by Jensen and others, whereby classroom chaos is encouraged.

[Marcia admits that being a parent has softened her response to middle school blunders.]

When I first began teaching middle school my own children were younger so I didn't have any parenting experience to fall back on when the educational theory fell short. I felt that kids this age needed to learn responsibility and if they didn't turn something in, they deserved to get a "0".

Now that my own children are all past the middle school age, I have found that I have an entirely different approach. Now, the last day of the term instead of saying, "I'm sorry but the deadline for make-up work was yesterday," I am saying, "OK, class, it is the end of the term, clean out your book bags, lockers and portfolios. Turn in any work you have even started. A few points are better than no points." My attitude toward the kids is completely different and likewise, their attitude toward me is different as well. I guess 'hovering' does describe what I do.

- Marcia

Young teachers may definitely find themselves at one extreme or another -- either unnaturally respectful of children as Independent Learners(TM) or excessively punitive with children who fail to learn independently enough fast enough to turn in their assignments on time.

-- BeckyC - 20 May 2006

Teachers want to hand out wool cardigans and pipes, they want to dress the children like little adults, and then sit back and watch the children behave like little adults with fully functioning frontal lobes. If only it were that simple.

-- BeckyC - 20 May 2006

Becky ok I think our next project is PARENT SUPPORT GROUP

I am SO enjoying your exasperation

I've been thinking exactly the same thing, of course

The idea that differentiated learning would provide EVEN MORE opportunities for my kid to become an "independent learner" is horrifying.

Actually, in Christopher's case, it wouldn't be so horrifying if they'd stop clobbering him with indecipherable grades all the time.

If he's supposed to be "independent" and supposed to "take responsibility for his own learning," then why does he have to answer to these people?

-- CatherineJohnson - 20 May 2006

The answer is obvious..... nobody actually cares about independent learners.

The point of all of this activity is to express the ideology of constructivism and to carry on transferring responsibility to kids & parents.

-- CatherineJohnson - 20 May 2006

You can get teachers to do anything if you can convince them it is translated from "brain research". In this situation, I think it can be helpful, but it has also resulted in abuses by Jensen and others, whereby classroom chaos is encouraged.

I'm pretty much giving up hope that any research will be applied logically or correctly.

Our superintendent is bringing in data warehousing & differentiated instruction, which, translated into action so far, means pre-tests.

So Ms. K is giving pre-tests.

Then she just covers whatever is in the chapter, one topic a day, with limited practice & zero distributed practice, and gives the standard summative assessment (punitive, indecipherable, and arbitrary grading in her case).

They're using the words "formative assessment," and they're giving pre-tests.

And the point of formative assessment is lost.

-- CatherineJohnson - 20 May 2006

Actually, an interesting armchair experiment would be to predict how the concept of executive function will be used against kids....

-- CatherineJohnson - 20 May 2006

I can almost see how it will certainly be used to support constructivism.....

-- CatherineJohnson - 20 May 2006

The idea that differentiated learning would provide EVEN MORE opportunities for my kid to become an "independent learner" is horrifying.

Nothing "formative" follows from differentiation.

Differentiated learning does not exist. It is smoke and mirrors. The smoke part makes it impossible to see into the classroom and that the teachers are doing exactly whatever they've done before, e.g. categorize kids as Fast, Medium, and Slow. Then, the mirror part makes you see in the word "differentiation" whatever you most desire for your child...

Perhaps you think your child needs enrichment. You envision his teacher selecting extra work for your child to do that which will carefully nurture his academic growth while respecting his individuality. You envision the challenge being a pleasant task, and you're thankful that someone else recognizes his superior intellect. You even imagine the teacher looks at his completed work. You're imagining things.

Perhaps you think your child needs remediation. You envision his teacher sitting down to carefully diagnose his inability to grasp an important concept that his peers grasped more readily. You envision his teacher providing extra work tailored to address his specific academic weaknesses. You're thankful knowing that your teacher is so vigilant. You're imagining things.

Oops, still bitter.

They're using the words "formative assessment," and they're giving pre-tests.

Pre-tests? That just helps her pitch her lectures slightly higher or slightly lower than she has already got planned and in the can.

-- BeckyC - 21 May 2006

how it will certainly be used to support constructivism

Oh yeah. In its relation to developmentalism. Another excuse to throw up their hands and state flatly that children can't be taught, they have to construct their own meaning when they are ready to construct it.

"I jes' growed"

That is the uncensored growth model of progressivism in education.

The wisdom of the ages has been to teach children what they CAN learn, things like spelling and grammar: RULES that CAN be memorized, for better or worse. Maybe our ancestors weren't such monsters after all, with their copy work and memory work. Maybe it is more developmentally appropriate to teach rules and why we have them, rather than to be assigning projects from Kindergarten through 8th grade. Maybe children aren't good project managers, after all.

-- BeckyC - 21 May 2006

Oh yeah. In its relation to developmentalism. Another excuse to throw up their hands and state flatly that children can't be taught, they have to construct their own meaning when they are ready to construct it.

RIGHT!

I couldn't quite get it - OF COURSE

It will be more developmentalism.

If a kid can't do something, it will be because his frontal lobes "aren't there yet."

-- CatherineJohnson - 21 May 2006

TOPOST

BECKY YOU NEED A BLOG!

-- CatherineJohnson - 21 May 2006

Becky, you have inspired me to post a personal anecdote on this topic.

When my Meg was in third grade, her teacher sent home "Challenge Activities" at the first of every month. These were extra and not required. It was an attempt to provide additional, extra activities for the "talented" kids, I think, but the whole class was given the opportunity to participate. Rewards were given based on the number of items completed at the end of the month: a pencil or small treat for 10 items, and lunch and dessert with the teacher for doing 20 items.

Let me note that teacher was very young: it was not her first year teaching, but it was her first year teaching third grade. Let me also note that as it turned out, most of the kids in this class were highly talented students.

We were wanting Meg to have additional challenges so we made sure she completed all 20 each month. We set her up with a folder, I put it on my calendar as a reminder, and on those days when she would whine that she was bored, well, guess what she could work on! She didn't mind working on them, because she was highly motivated by the teacher's reward. However, she did need to be reminded.

The first month several kids managed to do all 20, but it tapered off rapidly after that. Of course, since we were (and still are) hovering parents, we made sure Meg continued to do the activities each month. The teacher would send the Activity Sheet home at the beginning of the month and that was pretty much it as far as reminders went.

For November, the treat was that the kids would get to make gingerbread houses with the teacher at lunch. This was a great motivator! Megan did her November activities, turned them in at at the end of the month and waited. Nothing happened--no reward; no gingerbread houses over lunch.

To cut to the chase--the teacher had decided to wait until towards the end of the month to reward Meg in the hopes that this would serve as a reminder to the other kids to do their December activities. She didn't tell Meg this--I think I asked her about it after several weeks.

Meg's response upon hearing this? "If she waits too long to follow through on her promise to me, I may think that she's not going to follow through with her promise and then I'll stop doing them as well. So, she'll lose the only kid who is even doing them." I pointed this out to the teacher in an email, and within a day or two, Meg got to make her gingerbread house with the teacher. I remember thinking that my third grader had better intuition about how to motivate kids than her teacher did.

I so wanted to tell her that if she wanted the kids to do activities over the course of an entire month, she needed to give them lots of reminders. I wanted to tell her it wasn't that Meg was some super-organized kid; instead, she had a mom who had made it a priority.

I also wanted to tell her that kids have very short memories, and that if they weren't reminded often, they couldn't possibly keep track of something like that for an entire month!! I also wondered why she didn't ask me: "Hey, your kid always seems to get these done. What's the secret?" I would have been glad to tell her. I suppose I should have taken it upon myself to tell her anyway, but she was young and sensitive and I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I also didn't understand, completely, that she really didn't understand. I kept wondering what it was that she had learned (or not learned) about human behavior in her education classes. Now that I think about it, part of the problem was that she herself still had a lot to learn.

-- KarenA - 21 May 2006

I also wondered why she didn't ask me: "Hey, your kid always seems to get these done. What's the secret?" I would have been glad to tell her. She doesn't see you as a "partner" or "collaborator". Unless you are a fellow teacher who happens to be a parent... I have never once had a satisfying discussion with teachers in regards to process or content.

You are to support Megan as a learner, from home. In fact ;) imagine yourself as a little brassiere supporting Megan's frontal lobes. Catherine, have you got a graphic for this??? I went to wikipedia to check the spelling and saw a really cute leopard-print bra.

-- BeckyC - 21 May 2006

Okay, here's another anecdote related to "just telling them."

The Student Council teacher/sponsor at the grade school operated on this philosophy. She told the kids (4th and 5th graders) at their first meeting when the meetings would be held and sent home a partial schedule. I dutifully entered all of the dates on my calendar. A number of parents did not.

The teacher's philosophy was that they should be responsible; she wasn't going to send home any reminders or make any announcements, even though sometimes they only met once a month. If you missed several times, you were off StuCo^?.

A number of parents were rather ticked off, but we just dutifully "bit our tongues."

I remember being so irritated because the teacher didn't hold herself to the same standards that she did the kids. As an example, she once sent home a calendar with a meeting scheduled for a date that the kids didn't have school.

I wish I had a dime for every time I have heard a parent say, "maybe so and so will understand what kids are really like once they have kids of their own."

-- KarenA - 21 May 2006

If a kid can't do something, it will be because his frontal lobes "aren't there yet."

Call it the coma model of learning! When the kid wakes up from his coma, then we teach him content using an efficient process. But not until then. Until then we have to use an inefficient process or we risk causing irreversible conceptual damage.

Etcetera. I'm just the messenger.

-- BeckyC - 21 May 2006

I remember being so irritated because the teacher didn't hold herself to the same standards that she did the kids. As an example, she once sent home a calendar with a meeting scheduled for a date that the kids didn't have school.

I am in a delicate situation right now that I can't comment on... except to say that my child is in trouble at school for getting himself into the same binds... that his teacher gets herself into.

-- BeckyC - 21 May 2006

BeckyC^?--I am so with you on that one. The motto shouldn't be "Do as I say, not as I do."

As a college instructor, I constantly feel the need to model the kind of behavior I want from my students. If I mess something up, or if in hindsight my directions are unclear, I fess up and given them the benefit of the doubt.

I learned early on that it was impossible for me to be perfect and I wasn't going to pretend that I was.

I broke my ankle in February and was on crutches for 6 weeks, yet I only missed one class (and that was when I had my cast put on). I wasn't at my best, for sure, but I was there, period, which was the message I wanted to send them.

-- KarenA - 21 May 2006

Daniel is on the track team this year.

One day he comes out of track practice with a picture form. So I know they will be taking individual and team pictures at some future date. I also know that they have just "told" the kids when that will be.

So I asked Daniel, "When are pictures?" He gives me a completely blank look and says, "I don't know."

Now, Daniel has delays so I turn to another kid on the team. "When are pictures?" I ask. And HE gives me a completely blank look and doesn't know either!!

The only kid around me who does know is the autistic kid in Daniel's special needs class.

So, what does that data tell you?

-- AnneDwyer - 21 May 2006

I also wanted to tell her that kids have very short memories, and that if they weren't reminded often, they couldn't possibly keep track of something like that for an entire month!! I also wondered why she didn't ask me: "Hey, your kid always seems to get these done. What's the secret?"

I suspect your teacher was thinking something like "Meg's doing all these extra activities - so the other kids should be able to get organised to do them too."

(Absolutely no blame to you - the extra practice was probably great for Meg.)

-- TracyW - 21 May 2006

transferring responsibility to kids & parents.

From my little cave, this sounds like a good thing in the long run. The more parents have to do, the more they'll think to themselves, "I'm doing most of the work. Why am I paying so much and getting so little in return?" Maybe then they'll stop voting for "even more" school funding at every opportunity. Or better yet, more of them will homeschool. :-D

-- BrendaM - 23 May 2006

If parents don't do much, it's an excuse. If parents do things that teachers like, then it's proper parental involvement. If parents do things that teachers don't like, then it's hovering. Teachers and schools get to decide and it's the job of the parent to read their minds.

-- SteveH - 23 May 2006

I've also noticed that parents who don't do much think that parents who do anything extra academically are hovering inappropriately. I hear this assumption from many parents who will complain about aspects of the school, but don't really have the time or inclination to do anything beyond the school.

Comments from them don't bother me too much because my parents did the exact same thing and I paid a high price for it.

-- SusanS - 23 May 2006