INeedAPlan < Kitchen

18 Oct 2005 - 02:53

how do you get the kid to check his work?

(blank Saxon answer sheets are attached in the Comments thread.)

Ben is not liking his new math plan. He's been doing Saxon math with an aide for around 3 weeks now, and is doing okay, but he complains a lot about wanting to go back to Ms. Math Teacher's class. She's a nice teacher, that's one thing, but also the other kids are there and he doesn't like feeling singled out. Especially not when the singling-out means he's working a lot harder than he used to in the regular class.

The other problem we are having is one we could be having with any math curriculum; Ben is trying to whip through his math homework, as fast as he can, in order to finish as quickly as possible. As a result, he makes a lot of careless mistakes. I really want to get him working more meticulously, because any work habit Ben acquires will be very hard to get rid of. Here is the plan I've implemented in order to get him checking his work more carefully. It's behavioral, a reward system; I've used behavior plans with Ben since he was a young spacey toddler because if I design them well, they work.

With Saxon 8/7, most of the homework on any given evening is review; it's mostly stuff that he could do correctly the first time if he were careful. So I've taken the risk of telling him that I expect him to get it 85% correct the first time through. If he does that, he gets rewarded (the current favorite reward is getting to watch The Simpsons on DVD when he's done with homework). If not, he does without. But I'm not crazy about this plan, and I'm looking for a replacement.

One thing I don't like is that the reward is tied directly to performance. If he ever gets a homework that is on a topic he finds more difficult than usual, the 85% plan isn't going to work very well.

The other thing I don't like about it is that it isn't working very well. He still makes careless errors the first time through his work. When he is done with that first pass through, and I say "you'd better double check your work now before you hand it in," he usually passes up the opportunity to check his work again. Checking Your Work Again is the brussels sprouts of schoolwork; I remember loathing it myself. Apparently it is SO loathsome that he'd rather risk losing his Simpson's reward than Check His Work Again..

I call this an almost-failed intervention. It's not a total failure; his error rate has dropped considerably since we started, but his first-time-through success rate is topping off at just under 85%. He still has a baseline careless error rate of around 10%, I'd say; he usually has one or two problems he's skipped over completely. You really want a behavioral plan, too, that the kid accomplishes successfully most of the time, not one where he's always just barely missing the target.

Can anyone think of a better metric for success?

And, clearly, Checking One's Work Again from the beginning, at the end of an assignment, is too disgusting to contemplate. How do you get a kid to Check His Work Again on a problem-by-problem basis?

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What about having him do only odd or even numbered problems with the goal of 85% accuracy? If he succeeds he is done and possibly rewarded. If not, he completes the other half. If those are carelessly done he must sit with you as you "slowly" go though them together carefully correcting each problem.

-- LoneRanger - 18 Oct 2005

hey! i know the answer to this one
and it's downright weird.
it's (paraphrasing mobius stripper)
the freaking graphing calculator.

for reasons i'll probably never understand,
most students will fiddle around with a computer
for incredible amounts of time — whatever it takes —
to get it to do what they're trying to make it do.

by contrast, they'll give up trying to understand
symbols on a page as soon as they have to
stretch their concepts in the slightest.

of course this tendency is deplorable.
but — are we educationists? —
having noticed it, should we ignore it?
(rhetorical questions: heck no; probably not.)

so: in a word. require (as part of the question)
that the student display the calculator code
that checks that the "solution" does in fact
make the "right hand side" of the given equation
equal to the "left hand side".

i've seen this done and if i have any sense
i'll do it myself real soon. your milage may vary.

-- VlorbikDotCom - 18 Oct 2005

Checking Your Work Again is the brussels sprouts of schoolwork

This is definitely Wit & Wisdom

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

That's interesting about the calculator.

At the very end of RUSSIAN MATH there is one lesson on the calculator, which requires you to do a problem set strictly on the calculator.

I hated it. I found it incredibly tedious punching in those numbers; it was the first lesson I actively disliked.

Otoh, I did use a calculator throughout the book to check answers.

I spent a lot of time completely re-doing calculations, by hand; the computation problems in RUSSIAN MATH are unbelievably complex. (I was doing all kinds of pi calculations by hand; it was endless.)

Eventually I started using the calculator, which was a big help.

Carolyn, do you have Saxon Math answer sheets?

I made some up; I think I can find them.

Those were a big help for Christopher. You do each problem in a square that's numbered for that problem, IIRC.

I'd definitely strip out everything that taxes working memory apart from the math itself.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

I'm going to attach them here, if I remember how.

They keep your eye where it should be, so you don't have to wrestle with that part of it.

Christopher--and he would kill me for saying this--can barely see the page. I've watched his eyes; he has trouble keeping them where they should be. I'm sure it's some wonky autism-gene thing.

Everyone was in vision therapy for awhile, but then we conked out.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

downloadable Saxon worksheets (Word document):

Saxon Math answer sheet, mental math, problem solving, & lesson practice

Saxon Math answer sheet 'C,' mixed practice, 1-4

Saxon Math mixed practice answer sheet, problem numbers 5 - 28

quadrille sheet

reduced-size image:

Saxon Answer Sheets B & C (not downloadable)

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

OK, that worked. The first sheet should download to your computer. (It's a Word file.)

I'll put the rest up.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

They're all up.

These sheets definitely take some of the strain off. They were a big help for Christopher.

They'll help with checking, too, because he can put a check in the corner of each one as he checks it. He'll be able easily to see where all his work is.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Would it help if he checked his work as he goes along?

That's what I do.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Oh--I just saw your line at the end.

You might want to add a checkbox to each of these answer squares.

We haven't written anything about 'environmental dependency' yet, but Ben's probably pretty environmentally dependent.

Things like check boxes, pre-printed, 'pull' you towards the 'desired behavior.'

That was John (Ratey's) big lesson.

Set up your environment so that it PULLS productive behavior out of you.

Don't set up an environment you have to fight in order to get anything done.

This is yet another reason I'm violently opposed to page splatter.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

btw, as far as I can tell this is a Homework Universal.

Kids race through it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

You know, thinking about it, Christopher never checks his work, except on tests.

I make him sit there while I check it.

If he gets the answer wrong, he does it over.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

That's how Carol Gambill does it, and that's how most of the more advanced texts are organized. You check your answer against the answer in the back of the book.

Does he need to check his work at this stage of the game?

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Working with my kindergartener, I've found that it's best to set a reward and a punishment. He gets the reward when (not if) he completes the lesson satisfactorily. If he gets too many wrong, he keeps on getting more problems until he gets enough right. So the "punishment" is just more practice which eventually helps him understand the lesson.

-- KDeRosa - 18 Oct 2005

With our son (fourth grade), he has to check his work because we check all homework before it goes back the next day. If something is not right, we have him redo it. He would rather find the mistake than us. For writing, he has to do a rough draft that we go over. We don't tell him what to write, but we discuss it. Many mistakes are due to carelessness and sloppiness. No rewards. No bribery. This is the just the way it is.

Actually, it's harder for writing because it's difficult to get the words just right. I find that the school doesn't really give them much help in this area. We try to get him to pretend that he is someone else reading his writing for the first time.

Another problem is his lack of efficiency. It sometimes takes forever to get the work done becasue he gets side-tracked. This, however, means less time to play afterwards. Once he gets better at doing homework, we will back off. That is good incentive for him. He is also proud when his homework comes back 100 percent correct.

-- SteveH - 18 Oct 2005

That's what I was thinking, after reflecting on Christopher a bit more.

I'm wondering if Ben might start to prefer to check his work a bit more rather than have to re-do after Carolyn tells him the right answer.

otoh, that hasn't particularly happened with Christopher; he doesn't check his work.

so maybe not

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

It sounds like, though, from reading Gambill, that she doesn't particularly teach checking one's work in the sense Carolyn is teaching it.

I'm thinking that 'checking your work' and 'learning to mastery' are probably separate skills.

I realize I've been seeing it that way.

Checking your work is a frontal lobe function; it's about responsibility, maturity, adulthood, etc.

That's probably why I'm not concerned about Christopher checking his work at this stage of the game. As far as I can tell, he's as conscientious and responsible a kid as can be expected for age 11.

So I've been focusing on learning to mastery.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Hey weird, I thought I posted a comment here but now it's not here...

Catherine, those Saxon sheets are absolutely awesome!!!

There are lots of great ideas here. Right now I've got to work (you know how it is) but I am going to think up a plan that will be an amalgam of all these ideas. I'll report on it and how well it works.

Thanks again!

-- CarolynJohnston - 18 Oct 2005

I thought I gave them to you AGES ago!!!

He REALLY needs them. I spent hours making them up for Christopher.

Let me tell you: EVERYWHERE ON THE INTERNET, wherever the subject of Saxon Math comes up, you see homeschool parents talking about how hard it is for their kids that Saxon doesn't have 'consumables,' i.e. workbooks.

It's VERY hard recopying all those problems.

Remember, I was actually writing out not just the problems, but every step of Christopher's answer????

At the time, I was very worried about this, especially in light of Temple's experience with her drafting students, and your thoughts about getting math into your hand (which I belive is real and important).

But it worked out fine.

I think the trick is just to watch how he does where it counts.

If you give him LOTS of frontal lobe 'support' at home, can he do without it at school, and on tests?

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

One last thing: I would definitely try writing the Saxon problems out in the 'windows' on the answer sheets.

I did that for Christopher throughout all of 6/5, and it was a huge help.

(Actually, he didn't need me to write the super-short problems, such as word problems. He needed me--and actively wanted me--to write out the computation problems in their respective windows.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

You gave me only the quadrille paper, I think.

I am going to try giving him the support of these worksheets, for sure. I've been having him recopy messy work, and so forth. It's not that bad, he doesn't have handwriting issues, but if I can support him to the point where his work is good the first time, then that's even better,

"I'm thinking that 'checking your work' and 'learning to mastery' are probably separate skills."

I agree with you. Also, at this age, checking your work on most problems just amounts to doing the work over again! It's mainly in algebra, where you can plug in the answer you got to the original equation, where checking your work becomes more meaningful and interesting.

-- CarolynJohnston - 18 Oct 2005

oh--!

heck

sheesh, I've had these for probably a year now

It's mainly in algebra, where you can plug in the answer you got to the original equation, where checking your work becomes more meaningful and interesting.

You know, that is a very good point.

Checking your work then is cool.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

The other thing is, if he re-does the problem WRONG, you're getting into LIFELONG 7X6=43 TERRITORY.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

I have spent vast quantities of time re-doing problems wrong the exact same wrong way I did them in the first place.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

oh heck, I was thinking of one other thing.....now it's slipped my mind.....what was it?

thinking

Oh!

This is it.

This is interesting.

Remember how I keep telling you there's this one legendary math teacher at the middle school?

Well, I found out today she gives almost all multiple choice tests.

She gives a lot of them; she gives one quiz each and every week. (She also tells the kids that the way to learn algebra is to do tons of problems. Period.)

Hirsch, I believe, argues that multiple choice tests are good; they are perfectly adequate to test knowledge.

I completely trust parents' perceptions of this teacher, because she's teaching the kids who do go on to take AP calculus, get 800 math boards, etc. I've never heard, not once, that her kids get to high school unprepared.

The fact that she is (apparently) doing a fabulous job teaching algebra to 8th graders and she's giving multiple choice tests tells me.....um.....

Well, I think it tells me it's OK not to have Ben check his work.

It's fine to give him the immediate feedback of whether he got it right or not.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Oh--more debriefing.

I also learned, from my neighbor, that Christopher's teacher did not give any multiple choice tests last year. (I think she said none at all.)

She's the one parents were so furiously angry at, and whose tests were having median grades of 65, and the like. It was a nightmare.

I'm positive that the reason she's giving multiple-choice tests this year is that the older teacher counseled her to do so.

She is also, and I believe this is new this year, sending out 'Math Updates' to parents, showing us EXACTLY where our kids stand, how many points they've earned on each different activity.

I'm betting the older teacher told her to do that, too. (Every teacher in the school should be doing it.)

So.....I'm thinking that in general, taking the load off executive function, frontal lobes, & working memory to the greatest extent you can probably helps kids learn better.

I wish I knew more about this, because I don't think you can just 'do it all on the computer'; I do think you have to 'get it in your hand.'

But......it seems like you don't have to do both things at the same time.

In any case, the 'art of re-copying a problem' almost certainly isn't central to mathematics.

Ditto (I assume) for the 'art of writing digits in a straight line.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

test

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Just remembered: the elementary school teachers always had the kids turn their paper sideways, so they had columns to write their numbers down, and could keep them lined up.

That set me to thinking: are my numbers straight when I do a two or three-digit multiplication?

The answer is no, they're not.

Obviously, the reason I don't get lost in a 2 or 3-digit multiplication is that I've done it so many times I've

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

While the art of writing digits in a straight line isn't central to mathematics*, writing digits in intersecting lines is frowned upon.

* Neatness helps, though. If you can't tell the difference between a five and a six, this can reduce the probability** of getting the correct answer. (Says he of the nigh-illegible handwriting. Do as I say, not ....)

** Probabilistic addition is sub-optimal.

-- DougSundseth - 18 Oct 2005

That's the thing -- you have to write it neatly enough that you, yourself, are able to read it if necessary.

-- CarolynJohnston - 18 Oct 2005

All the males in my family except Ben have nigh-illegible handwriting. Ben's is actually pretty good.

Of course, my handwriting is fabulous. So fabulous, in fact, that I could be a teacher.

-- CarolynJohnston - 18 Oct 2005

test

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

This is weird.

I absolutely can't finish my comment.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

I'll try here.

as I was saying, the reason I don't get lost in a multiplication problem

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

I give up.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Carolyn's handwriting IS fabulous.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Mine stinks.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

Mine is so bad I could be a doctor.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Oct 2005

That's weird about the comments. What happens if you try to edit the page?

-- CarolynJohnston - 19 Oct 2005

same thing

I'll see if it happens now, and give you the error message.

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Oct 2005

OK, I just tried to copy in the error message & couldn't do it!

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Oct 2005

I emailed it to you.

It says 'Precondition failed'

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Oct 2005

I've seen this problem before... it's some word in the comments!

-- CarolynJohnston - 19 Oct 2005

ah-hah!

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Oct 2005

because i did some funky thing of cutting & pasting (and obviously my Mac is insane, seeing as how half my commands mean something else these days)

I have a sinking feeling I may have to go back to the land of Dell

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Oct 2005

My God You Guys Are Amazing!

I am making up worksheets for the kids to put answers to the SM problems for the Textbook Practice Problems pages. Now I can use these as a sample.

Thank you!

EvilMathTeacher

-- EvilMathTeacher - 17 Sep 2006

Hi, Evil!

Thanks!

yup, we've been putting a lot of stuff together - the quesiton is, how findable is it??

I've TRIED to get it all logged in on the two supplement pages ("Recommended reading" and "Favorite supplements") and the "book-style index," but I've probably missed something.

The other way to find things I missed is to use the Search by Category page (on the sidebar to the left also)

just search Posts using the word "worksheets" or "worksheet"

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Sep 2006

(I'd forgotten we had these sheets!)

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Sep 2006

WebLogForm
Title:	how do you get the kid to check his work?
TopicType:	WebLog
SubjectArea:	ParentsTeachingKids, SaxonMath
LogDate:	200510172252

Attachment	Action	Size	Date	Who
1SaxonworksheetB.doc	manage	30.5 K	18 Oct 2005 - 13:09	CatherineJohnson
2SaxonworksheetC-4.doc	manage	49.5 K	18 Oct 2005 - 13:12	CatherineJohnson
3SaxonwsC-42.doc	manage	251.0 K	18 Oct 2005 - 13:12	CatherineJohnson
4Saxonquadrille.doc	manage	91.0 K	18 Oct 2005 - 13:12	CatherineJohnson

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how do you get the kid to check his work?

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