He's had a bad day or two.

We've been having a lot of them around here.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

Christopher's math teacher, who I do like, sent me an email expressing concern about the striking decline in Christopher's grades.

I think she's ready for the "if the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught" email.

-- KDeRosa - 18 Dec 2005

We're going with the "if the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught" parent conference.

Then we're following that up with the "if the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught" email to the principal.

I'm contemplating having the local print shop make me up a sweatshirt with that slogan—and hanging it up in the shop, where all the volunteer moms who come in to pick up their Xerox orders will see it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

-- KDeRosa - 18 Dec 2005

I recommend that everyone read "Cheating Our Kids" by Joe Williams.

Here's what he has to say about the PTSA:

"Don't trust the PTAs to do anything other than raise cold, hard cash." snip "PTAs must be considered an entrenched part of the status quo, and are often part of the problem. The very structure of the organization depends on everyone in the school getting along, a sort of big educational group hug of teachers, parents, and administrators." snip "It is difficult to identify a single educational issue, for example, on which the PTA has broken ranks with the NEA or AFT..."

The main point of his book is that school districts and the teacher's unions main priority is not to educate our children, but to provide jobs for the teachers and connected others. He makes are very convincing case. And your announcement from the Irvington PTSA just adds fuel to the fire.

-- AnneDwyer - 18 Dec 2005

Don't trust the PTAs to do anything other than raise cold, hard cash

yup

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

The ex-president of our PTSA told us that one of the most important activities of the PTSA was to turn out for the pre-K orientation to impress upon entering parents the critical need for increased funding for Irvington schools.

It's very important to approach these parents as they're entering the school, she said.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

The very structure of the organization depends on everyone in the school getting along, a sort of big educational group hug of teachers, parents, and administrators.

This is why it was a tactical (strategic?) error for the administration to tell the PTSA to shut down a parent-taught course.

heh

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

I have a copy of the book on the way.

I also have the book on PTSA politics.....will have to find it upstairs.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

"...the critical need for increased funding for Irvington schools."

Did you ask her why the schools needed extra money?

I think Anne Dwyer is spot-on: "...school districts and the teacher's unions main priority is not to educate our children, but to provide jobs for the teachers and connected others."

A bureaucracy's Prime Directive is this: "Live long and multiply".

-- VerghisKoshi - 18 Dec 2005

"if the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught"

What about "if the teacher hasn't taught, she or he wasn't taught how to teach?"

Your average salaries and benefits at $70K sound pretty high but that doesn't mean the teachers are well-trained. What about asking the teachers what would help them do a better job?

Our public education system is a mess but of all the players, I think teachers are the most likely -- after students, of course -- to be victims of the system rather than a root cause of the problems.

-- SusanJ - 18 Dec 2005

In terms of what you should do with your three minutes, why not just take along that graph you had showing spend per student for Irving vs spend per student for a DI school, and then their results?

Blow it up really big and show it around. Once you've done talking, stick it up on the wall.

Sorry, I can't remember where it is on this site, but Verghis will find it. :)

-- TracyW - 18 Dec 2005

Did you ask her why the schools needed extra money?

No.

I've never experienced open discussion in PTSA meetings.

This is why we have no need for Delphi techniques.

We have rigid, strictly monitored, 3-minute time slots during which we can speak our piece and then, if we go over, we're gaveled to order by whatever PTSA authority is running the show.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

In terms of what you should do with your three minutes, why not just take along that graph you had showing spend per student for Irving vs spend per student for a DI school, and then their results?

Do you mean this one?

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

I may not have the you-know-what to do that.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

On the other hand.....maybe I do.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

Our public education system is a mess but of all the players, I think teachers are the most likely -- after students, of course -- to be victims of the system rather than a root cause of the problems.

Definitely.

I could change the t-shirt to the 'school' hasn't taught.

That's the truth.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

Although, I have to say that my sympathy for teachers here is at a low ebb. They make far more money than I do; 6-figure salaries are routine, along with generous, permanent benefits that are far higher than benefits anyone in the private sector makes, etc.

Here's the other thing: what these teachers need to do is formative assessment.

Some of them are doing it.

The science teacher is sitting the kids down and taking them through their textbook, showing them how to study, take notes, isolate points, etc.

There's an English teacher, too, who does formative assessment. She gives the kids very brief quizzes, and checks to see what they've learned and haven't learned.

She adjusts her teaching accordingly.

If some of the teachers can do it, they can all do it.

That's pretty much where I am on the subject.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

A bureaucracy's Prime Directive is this: "Live long and multiply".

Well, unfortunately, that happens to be my motto, too, so we've reached a Critical Juncture of nonconforming interests.

Or something.

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Dec 2005

Yep, that's the graph.

And why not do it? Is anyone going to try to kill you? If not, what's the problem?

Take along multiple copies - so you can hand plenty to the PTSA and still have one to sit on the wall.

You won't make a change in their approach or any decisions made this meeting, the point is to get the information into the heads of all the people attending.

-- TracyW - 18 Dec 2005

Six-figure salaries for teachers? You're kidding.

-- CarolynJohnston - 19 Dec 2005

Average starting salary for NY teachers is something like $36,400. Average salary for all NY teachers in 2003-2004 was $55,181. http://www.highered.nysed.gov/tcert/career/nyteachers_oppforteachers.htm

my sympathy for teachers here is at a low ebb

Mine has been at a low ebb ever since I was a teacher myself in the 60's; watching my kids' and grandkids' experiences hasn't led to any change.

However, I still don't blame the teachers as much as the system. Remember that study everyone was talking about a few years back that showed that the least competent people were most likely to over-estimate their own capabilities?

-- SusanJ - 19 Dec 2005

"Our public education system is a mess but of all the players, I think teachers are the most likely -- after students, of course -- to be victims of the system rather than a root cause of the problems"

??? The same stout-hearted band of brothers that holds kids to ransom by refusing to write letters of recommendation to colleges unless they get a contract to their liking? The same people who, in California, have trouble passing the CBEST? Those people?

I rather doubt it.

And no, Carolyn, no kidding. But they're still a-pleadin' poverty.

-- VerghisKoshi - 19 Dec 2005

The starting salary for teachers here in the Bay Are is about $43K, topping out at about $90K for 9 months work; plus 90% pensions, free health-care for life, plus job security.

Not a bad deal, I'd say.

-- VerghisKoshi - 19 Dec 2005

Don't forget summers off.

I taught college math and computer science many years ago after working in industry and before I started my own business.

Christmas break. Spring break. Summers off. All work is over completely. Nothing is hanging over your head. Grades are in. You start fresh in the fall. No work backing up. No email to catch up on. How many professional jobs out in industry ever get that kind of break? Most are lucky to be able to schedule two consecutive weeks off. Even if they can, their work backs up for when they return. Many end up still on call and/or checking in by computer at night. If you change jobs, your vacation time goes back to two weeks a year, unless you are in a position where you can negotiate more.

How many professionals would love to go into their bosses and tell them that they want to take summers off? All of their projects and responsibilities would be turned over to others and they would get to start out fresh in the fall.

-- SteveH - 19 Dec 2005

Hmm, the NYC Dept. of Education says the minimum starting salary in 2003 was $39,000.

Not counting the various perks, of course.

-- VerghisKoshi - 19 Dec 2005

I'm not trying to say that all teachers deserve their current salaries or deserve our respect. I'm just trying to say that it isn't entirely their fault that they are like they are. Either we aren't training them properly or we aren't attracting the right people in the first place or there's something wrong with the working environment. (I wouldn't work in an NYC school no matter what you paid me!)

The working environment seems to be an especially acute problem in science and math. According to this Dec. 15 article, http://www.space.com/searchforlife/051215_seti_teach.html "more than half of science and math teachers [are] leaving the profession in the first 5 years."

"By 2012, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) predicts that we will need about 18% more teachers than are in the classroom now." http://www.seti.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=194993&ct=834493

What can we do to ensure that each newly-hired teacher is above-average? Hiring above-average people is the only way to raise the average.

-- SusanJ - 19 Dec 2005

Well, the teachers' unions have been screaming like banshees about the coming apocalypse (aka the looming teacher shortage). For a slightly different perspective, take a look at EIA Intercepts (a blog by Mike Antonucci).

For a long time I've believed that the best schoolteachers would people with average abilities and an instinct for dealing with kids. Why? Because many very bright people haven't the patience to deal with children. For a more elegant version of this argument, see Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" and the discussion of the Alpha++s and the Epsilon--s. So do we need above-average people? Not clear to me.

Perhaps I'm wrong. There's some evidence that the people who flock to KIPP and similar schools are very bright, very passionate people who can do tremendous work; but they cannot make it their life's work, and will leave after a while. Maybe that's a workable model.

What's clear (to me at least) is that hiring a bunch of mediocrities, leading them to believe that they're the cream of the crop, putting them into a system in which ability, drive and passion are actively frowned upon, and in which there's no penalty for doing an execrable job - that, to me, is a recipe for a hugely expensive disaster. Who do you think will be paying the unsustainable pensions that have been promised to these teachers? We, of course.

Have you looked at the CBEST link that I posted? Quite eye-opening, I think.

-- VerghisKoshi - 19 Dec 2005

However, I still don't blame the teachers as much as the system.

oh, I agree

Management is the issue.

Well, management & the unions.

But even there, good management probably ought to prevail over unions.

When you see good management in action, you realize there are LOTS of things the manager can do to get people functioning.

I probably shouldn't say this too often, but Ed is an administrator at NYU, and he's moved problem employees with tenure out—and he's done it quickly.

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Dec 2005

Before you start ragging on teacher salaries (which, BTW, are not uniformly generous -- check TX, LA, AL, MS), consider that "back in the day" when we were all in school:

- less than 1% of the student population had the equivalent of an IEP

- (nearly) every child spoke English

- teachers didn't have to teach five different levels of math in one hour because the five different levels were in five different classes

- students weren't trying to murder or impregnate the teacher or each other in class

- teachers could send administer discipline and not get fired

There are some horrible statistics about teacher retention rate. Some percentage quit the profession after the first year, and a large number quit within the first five. (Google...)

The public school system is just broken, and NCLB isn't going to fix it.

-- KtmGuest - 19 Dec 2005

Hiring above-average people is the only way to raise the average.

You know.....I don't off-hand think this is so (but I wouldn't bet money!)

I'm coming from a very-offbeat angle, which is Temple's success working with McDonald's to clean up the meatpacking industry.

That industry was a mess, and it was turned around in 18 months' time—using the same employees (who are unionized & can't be fired).

My guess is that our teachers today can do the job. Period.

What Temple found was that the same people who do a mediocre to poor job inside a bad system could turn around and do a good to excellent job inside a good one.

She saw cases of 'problem employees'—plant troublemakers—becoming the star employee after the McDonald's audit went into effect.

That's not to say it might not be a great idea to have teachers with higher SAT scores or whatever......I don't know whether it's a good idea or not.

If I had to bet, and I'm glad I don't have to bet, I'd bet that the teachers we have today could do a radically better job educating kids under a different system and structure.

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Dec 2005

Ken can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's Engelmann's position (the problem isn't the teachers; today's teachers are fine).

Engelmann is, I would say, very 'pro' teacher. He's 'pro' in the sense that he doesn't blame teachers for kids' low scores & learning.

He blames the curriculum & the complete lack of 'teacher training' inside the schools. (By 'teacher training' he means something very specific, which is teacher training to a particular curriculum—again, Ken can chime in on this.)

Having spent years in autism schools, I'm with him on that.

At "ABA" schools, you have one-on-one teaching.

The lead teacher was always a person with a Master's Degree and specialized experience and training, but the rest of the teachers didn't have this. They learned how to teach autistic kids—some of the toughest kids out there—on the job.

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Dec 2005

There are some horrible statistics about teacher retention rate. Some percentage quit the profession after the first year, and a large number quit within the first five. (Google...)

I MUST FIND MY STATS ON MID-LIFE CAREER-CHANGING TEACHERS!

THEY STAY PUT!

I have nothing intelligent to say about city schools, however. (Although I do think we know something about schools that work. Catholic schools work, for example, as does KIPP. Public schools seem to have their hands tied.)

My complaints are focused on the schools I know.

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Dec 2005

I'm not trying to say that all teachers deserve their current salaries or deserve our respect.

I'm whipping up an argument here by complaining about a highly specific situation (my own) in which teachers are well paid and the school has a philosophy of blaming the student for failure to learn.

I'd say most schools 'blame the student'; that's an overriding philosophy that's been with us for a long time.

But our middle school has a particularly 'strong' version of this, and it's getting to me.

I wouldn't be going nuts about six-figure salaries if I weren't spending hours of my life struggling to teach my child the material he's not learning at school.

If Christopher were learning how to write and how to spell and how to do math at school I'd think our six-figure salaries were very well deserved.

In fact, I'd be happy that our teachers are well-paid, and I'd be keen to do whatever I needed to do to keep them happy.

so......my complaints are about my school!

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Dec 2005

I thought at school some of the best teachers were those who struggled with the subject themselves and eventually won through.

They would have a fair idea of where students would make mistakes. And they would understand that kids sometimes do not understand things and blaming them for not understanding won't help.

And as for the good old days:
- lots of people weren't diagnosed with disabilities. They were just failed. I mentioned here that my initial diagnosis was 'lazy'. They just didn't have dyspraxia identified back then.
- at my mum's school, one of the students shot the principal one day. (Mum came from a little country town which when considered over decades has one of the highest murder rates in NZ - and they are all very weird murders.)
- my grandmother taught at schools where they not only didn't group students into five different ability groupings for maths, they only had two classes for the whole school - all ages.

-- TracyW - 19 Dec 2005

I thought at school some of the best teachers were those who struggled with the subject themselves and eventually won through.

Interesting.

I've never thought of it that way.

I have NO clue what to think about the good old days.....I don't think my own school was too great.

My mom says my high school was bad, and I remember it well enough to know that's the case.

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Dec 2005

We had a few weird murders in our town.

No one ever shot the principal, though.

-- CatherineJohnson - 19 Dec 2005

The weird thing about mum's home town is that no one ever murdered someone for an inheritance, or over a drug deal going wrong or something like that.

No, they'd shoot the principal because they were moved to a different class from their girlfriend. Or they'd beat someone to death to drive the demons out.

-- TracyW - 20 Dec 2005

No, they'd shoot the principal because they were moved to a different class from their girlfriend. Or they'd beat someone to death to drive the demons out.

I actually did have a friend whose dad shot and killed her mom over an affair she was having.

She was the cousin of my best friend.

-- CatherineJohnson - 20 Dec 2005

No demon murders

-- CatherineJohnson - 20 Dec 2005

I think one catchy and unforgettable sentence is what you need. Think of "It's the economy, stupid."

Or, "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit."

Or, "It's 10:30, do you know where your child is?"

Here in NM we have a great slogan to remind people to buy locally, "Do you know where your tortilla was last night?"

-- SusanJ - 08 Jan 2006

Here in NM we have a great slogan to remind people to buy locally, "Do you know where your tortilla was last night?"

LOL!

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

I should just get Ken's t-shirt made up and wear it to the meeting.

Then parade around the room looking for my seat or going in and out to use the restroom while everyone else is talking about Math Enrichment Positions.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

key words:
Ken's t-shirt
Cafe Press
If the student hasn't learned

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

(I keep losing the shirt....)

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

Attachment	Action	Size	Date	Who	Comment
KTM.gif	manage	0.1 K	18 Dec 2005 - 15:56	KDeRosa
KTMTee.png	manage	358.8 K	18 Dec 2005 - 16:05	KDeRosa