Question about the English class: Who told the other students about Christopher's grades on the assignments? If the English teacher disclosed his scores, that might be a violation of FERPA.

In general, you need to make your demands very concrete and behavioral (and not open to interpretation).

-- RudbeckiaHirta - 08 Dec 2005

Rudbeckia

Thank you; excellent advice.

Engelmann says exactly the same thing; he says Don't talk theory.

Although.....it's a challenge.

It's probably not as difficult a challenge for Ed & me, given that we're both writers and have both been dealing with schools for 15 years.

Still, finding words that are so concrete and behavioral they aren't open to interpretation......that's a tall order.

Question about the English class: Who told the other students about Christopher's grades on the assignments? If the English teacher disclosed his scores, that might be a violation of FERPA.

Boy, I'll be looking that up ASAP.

Mrs. Roth writes their grades in fairly large, red lettering so that all the students see each other's grades. Christopher complained about it earlier this year.

Everyone knows everyone's grades.

I checked my notes.

Mrs. Roth said to Christopher, loudly, with the entire class present and listening, "Are you actually trying to do the work?"

Every day since that, the other children in the class have been taunting him at lunchtime and recess, telling him he 'didn't do the work.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

also from my notes, the exact words in the 'retarded' quote:

'Stop that drumming and banging. Are you guys retarded?'

(Children, by the way, because of immature brain development, can remember exact words. Adults remember the meaning.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

She's said other things to other children that I haven't mentioned (and obviously won't mention).

It seems extremely unlikely that this is the first complaint the school has had about this teacher.

I know several parents who are on the verge of contacting the principal this year alone. They may already have done so.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

by the way, Christopher's science teacher is doing something like formative assessment, I think.

At a minimum, she's teaching them how to study.

They had a test on Wednesday, and she walked them through the studying process in class.

There's another English teacher, a new young teacher, who is doing formative assessment (or what I would call formative assessment).

If the grades on a test are bad, she re-teaches and gives the test again.

Mrs. Roth did that with the subject-predicate test Christopher failed.

He got a 97 (something like that) on the second test.

In that case, I did the teaching using the book Susan recommended.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

All of the kids in the class know everyone's grades.

The papers are handed back so as to allow everyone to see.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

Another thing: the other English teachers are doing the same assignments with the kids.

But they're way behind.

Mrs. Roth told her class, 'I like to go fast.'

The other teachers are doing the assignment in class, teaching each step as they go along.

One class has finished; the lowest grade given was a B+.

At Back to School night Mrs. Roth said all of her students would do all of their assignments in class, because if she allowed students to take the assignments home we parents 'would get your grubby fingers all over them.'

That's a quote.

I wrote it down.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

If I were any good at it, I'd try the salesman game. Start the meeting by getting buy-in to your stated goals. If you choose the goals correctly ("I know that we all want Christopher to succeed."), this shouldn't be difficult.

Continue to edu-babble platitudes chosen to support the next stuff. From your description, Ed should be able to figure out which ones are most appropriate.

The objective of the beginning of the meeting is to get the administration into the habit of agreeing with you and at the same time lay a groundwork for the meat of the meeting.

Then suggest a specific course of action (with verifiable timetables and specific actions). Each action should be spun as an obvious corrolary of a specific platitude that the administration has already agreed to. It will make it much harder to break your flow. You should start with the least controversial thing and continue in order of increasing pain for the school.

Be prepared with a bone or bones to throw to the school, so that you can show your willingness to compromise. This will make you seem much more reasonable. As long as you choose the "compromises", you shouldn't have to give up anything you actually care about. If you can do this in writing, the result is more likely to be positive, but this may be very difficult.

Finally, finish the meeting on your terms and at a time of your choosing: "Great! I'm glad we have arrived at what looks to be a solution to our problem. Thank you for all your help. I don't know what we'd do without it. We'll be in touch to help keep track of progress." Then leave. If you do this right, you will not give them a chance to weasel out of anything.

If you're really serious, you might want to script and rehearse this. At the least, I'd work up an outline.

Just remember, "The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made." — Jean Giraudoux

-- DougSundseth - 08 Dec 2005

Doug

If I were any good at it, I'd try the salesman game. Start the meeting by getting buy-in to your stated goals. If you choose the goals correctly ("I know that we all want Christopher to succeed."), this shouldn't be difficult.

How about this for a potentially useful approach.

I'm thinking of starting with a brief account of the teachers who are doing a good job. His science teacher, his social studies teacher.

Actually, I think I'd start simply with the science teacher.

She's brand-new; she's young; and she is teaching the kids.

She's teaching them how to study.

They had a test on Wednesday, and she studied with them in the class.

I know from all my years spent in behavioral teaching realms that punishment and negatives aren't particularly useful (though they have their moments, clearly documented by reams of research, I gather).

One problem with 'aversives' is that they aren't very informational.

When you tell a child he's done something wrong, there's literally an infinite array of things that might be right.

I'm thinking that if we open with 'Here is a teacher who is teaching our child effectively' that might set us on the proper track.

What do you think?

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

Then suggest a specific course of action (with verifiable timetables and specific actions).

yes

we'll figure this out tonight

along with frantic studying for tomorrow's math quiz

(no, i'm serious; we'll get this done)

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

I think that's a good touch. I might phrase it such that you suggest that the school is doing a good job generally (examples), "but I'm sure we can all agree that Christopher is having a few problems."

[Edubabble part 1, expressing the importance of modeling behavior, for instance], "For example Ms. [whoever] studies with the children in class and models effective studying behavior."

Continue with stuff about effective criticism, homework, whatever.

Explain the problems with the current teacher with specific reference to other teachers that are better at handling the specific situation.

Suggest a course of action.

I'd save any mention of your and Ed's credentials to use as a hammer to reply to patronizing comments from the principal. They're better when used in retaliation than in preemption, IMO.

HTH.

-- DougSundseth - 08 Dec 2005

I think that's a good touch. I might phrase it such that you suggest that the school is doing a good job generally (examples), "but I'm sure we can all agree that Christopher is having a few problems."

Long pow-wow with Ed this afternoon.

Looks like we're not going with the 'school is doing a good job generally' line.

Explain the problems with the current teacher with specific reference to other teachers that are better at handling the specific situation.

This, absolutely. They have teachers at the school who are using some variant of formative assessment.

We'll press this point.

Ed worked with principals all over CA. He said every principal, univerally, has a list of teachers he'd give his eyeteeth to fire.

He also said we'll be able to tell from the principal's responses whether or not Mrs. Roth is on the list.

Of course, I asked what the plan is if he says Mrs. Roth is the best in the school.

Apparently the plan is to fall out of our chairs.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

I'm joking.

We have a plan.

We ARE going to fall out of our chairs, however.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

Well, dress appropriately, then.

8-)

-- DougSundseth - 08 Dec 2005

Ed said, 'When a principal has a teacher who's not teaching well, he needs to be working with her.'

Offhand, what would you guess that means?

Bear in mind, Ed is an administrator.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

Well, dress appropriately, then.

good point

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

the Armani suit's coming out of the clothing bag tomorrow

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

the brilliant thing is that FIRST, before we meet with the principal, we have a STRENGTH-BASED ASSSESSMENT to do for Jimmy

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

just shoot me now

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

"...he needs to be working with her."

I'd read that as, "Close supervision" with a view to dramatically improving her performance or (more likely) developing a well-documented case for her termination or making her life miserable enough that she quits.

(My dad supervised government employees for a long time. You learn things.)

"Well, dress appropriately, then."

Remember, professionals study logistics.

-- DougSundseth - 08 Dec 2005

I'd read that as, "Close supervision" with a view to dramatically improving her performance or (more likely) developing a well-documented case for her termination or making her life miserable enough that she quits.

close

It meant, and I quote, 'Work with her to make her retire.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

I think the 'dress appropriately' line was in reference to 'falling out of your chairs', so I was going to recommend sweats.

Then again, there's always this option...

-- IndependentGeorge - 08 Dec 2005

He could instantly rattle off precisely how this is done. It was amazing.

• require her to do lots of professional development

• visit her class frequently

• write numerous assessments and memos

I don't even remember the rest.

It was horrifying.

Even I didn't enjoy listening to the list.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

I said, 'I thought you meant 'work with her closely to improve her teaching.'

Ed said, 'You can't improve a teacher like that' as if that were just nuts on the face of it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

Independent George

ok, that wasn't on the list

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

I think the 'dress appropriately' line was in reference to 'falling out of your chairs'

You can do that wearing Armani

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

... so I was going to recommend sweats.

I was going to recommend nice underwear. My Grandma Alice was a big fan of wearing nice, clean underwear because you never knew when you'd be hit by a bus.

Once when I was a girl she said to me, "Carolyn! Go wash your feet, or you'll never get a husband."

-- CarolynJohnston - 08 Dec 2005

The available evidence would seem to indicate that you washed your feet.

-- DougSundseth - 08 Dec 2005

I washed both feet, and got two husbands.

-- CarolynJohnston - 08 Dec 2005

You can do that wearing Armani

Yes, but would you want to? I don't think I could even bring myself to eat while wearing Armani...

-- IndependentGeorge - 08 Dec 2005

I'd also recommend wearing good socks.

I went on a business trip a while back, and carelessly wore socks with huge holes in them. My colleagues got a good look at my big ugly toes poking through my socks when my turn at the metal detectors came around.

I calmly explained this obviously meant I wasn't being paid enough.

-- IndependentGeorge - 08 Dec 2005

I calmly explained this obviously meant I wasn't being paid enough.

yeah, well, I am DEFINITELY not being paid enough to put up with this stuff

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

The reason you can eat wearing Armani?

Two words

black navy

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Dec 2005

I read this post, and I was very hesitant about offering advice. I don't have school age children yet (next year), and I don't really know the details behind this, but having contact primarily with teachers (although they are former teachers) I will offer these:

1. The idea that teachers have no experience with "activist" parents (their term, not mine) is malarkey--just given my experience with teachers. A majority of them in educational publishing tell me that they left "because of the parents." If you were the first parent at your school to raise a fuss, I would be surprised (it would have been a good idea to contact other parents); but even if you were, the teacher(s) involved undoubtedly have contact with other teachers outside their school system who will sympathize and talk about how crazy it is that some parent is going to waltz in here and tell me how to do my job.

I guess what I'm trying to say with this is that, no matter who the administration is, you will likely walk in the door as the "crazy parent." (But, again, I don't know the specifics.)

2. Pulling out research documents or articles will reinforce the "crazy parent" theme in their minds. Not only that, it will confuse the issue (at least perceptually) of why you are there--for your son or as an activist for the community? One can clarify the faults of the specific teachers involved and the shortcomings of the administration while still sticking to the issue in which you have an undeniable stake--your son's education. This meeting is about HIM and the teachers, not just about the teachers.

3. If your husband is going with you, which from your post I gathered, very smart. VERY SMART. And not because he's adept at verbal combat. It's just smart to show a united front. And no one sees fathers in schools anymore. It sends a message.

That's all. Hope it goes well.

-- JdFisher - 09 Dec 2005

I don't have school age children yet (next year),

Congratulations!!!

(Next year, right?)

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

J D

If you were the first parent at your school to raise a fuss, I would be surprised (it would have been a good idea to contact other parents); but even if you were, the teacher(s) involved undoubtedly have contact with other teachers outside their school system who will sympathize and talk about how crazy it is that some parent is going to waltz in here and tell me how to do my job.

Absolutely.

One teacher told me last year that the administration 'hates' the parents.

And I've had teachers say very harsh, negative things to me about parents.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

My point is that Irvington parents are probably even worse than other parents (that would be my guess).

'Worse' meaning relentless, fearless, impossible to deal with, etc.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

If you were the first parent at your school to raise a fuss, I would be surprised (it would have been a good idea to contact other parents);

Everyone in our school raises a fuss at all times.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

I'm going to have to try to be more lucid about this.....although this is another case where the reason I'm not lucid is that in fact I don't understand the situation well.

Large conflictual social settings and institutions are, for me, opaque.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

If your husband is going with you, which from your post I gathered, very smart. VERY SMART. And not because he's adept at verbal combat.

Our experience is that people freak out the minute the dad is involved.

It's like bringing in the heavy artillery.

We had an email from the principal saying he'd like to invite the assistant principal and the guidance counselor to the meeting. That would make it 3 to 2. We said no.

So we're meeting with him alone.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

Pulling out research documents or articles will reinforce the "crazy parent" theme in their minds.

Actually, I've found ways to make this work.

I know what you mean; I've seen it.

We make it work by pulling rank like crazy. Two Ph.D.'s between us, 6 books, 3 Distinguished Teaching Awards, Ivy League degrees....(I'm making myself sick); then we produce the Document.

However, in this case we've pretty much settled on two things: the original contract Christopher was asked to sign, and the DI contract we would (conceivably) be willing to sign.

I will also give him, possibly via email, the title of "Diagnosis Diagnosed."

Or not.

(i.e., you're right about the documents! it's good advice)

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

Christopher took a poll today; at least 4 children in one of his classes said that their mothers 'loathe' Mrs. Roth.

Knowing Irvington parents as I do, it's impossible for me to imagine they don't have a file as big as your fist filled with emails and letters about this teacher.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

My only advice is that if you start talking about cross-multiplication, you're probably going into too much detail.

I was thinking that we parents ought to start our own unions and negotiate contracts with the schools. This is something that all teachers understand and appreciate. They know the importance of having everything written out in detail. We can require parents (union stewards) on site who are paid by the school. They can monitor compliance with the contract. Just think of how many times you wanted to be a fly on the wall. Instead of getting a vague idea of what is happening from little Johnnie or Suzie, you will have a parent there to provide a proper accounting - with a video recorder, if necessary. Next comes the topics of curriculum, expectations, and accountability - all contractural considerations. THEN, we can talk about a contract between the child and the school.

-- SteveH - 09 Dec 2005

Last I heard (I just finished an '06 product for NY [because of the new learning standards]) from one of my authors out of Hunter College, NYC districts (or regions, or whatever they call them now) are assigned parent coordinators from the community.

Is that true of Irvington or Smithtown or White Plains or wherever you are?

-- JdFisher - 09 Dec 2005

I was thinking that we parents ought to start our own unions and negotiate contracts with the schools.

Well, what are the possibilities here???

Do we know?

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

parent coordinators from the community

What is a parent coordinator?

What we have is 'insider parents' (I'm somewhat in this category, though I may be taking myself out of it with ktm) who get chosen to serve on everything. It's always the same people.

They're chosen by the administration, or by the head of the PTSA.

There's no real system for non-insider parents to be represented.

The new superintendent has come up with a novel approach, which is to put together a 'Wellness Committee' and invite everyone to join.

That means ordinary, non-insider parents can be part of a high-level committee.

But the committee is on Wellness.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

THEN, we can talk about a contract between the child and the school.

No kidding.

He's going to get an earload about the Grade Contract.

Ed doesn't want to take this to higher levels, but I think I'm going to have to talk him into moving this one up to everyone—not as a specific complaint; the complaint will be handled by the principal.

But everyone up through the ranks & including the school board should see these 3 documents and ask themselves which document Irvington parents would support and why.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

This story may be perfect for Oprah.

-- KDeRosa - 13 Dec 2005

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING

This is the second time today I decided against writing something, and then you wrote it

hey

this is cool

you can be the Dick Cheney of Kitchen Table Math

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

only if you want to, of course

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

and even THEN, you can't be quite AS Dick Cheney as Dick Cheney

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

fyi, I have been a GUEST on Oprah TWICE

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

I'm not kidding

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

Oh. I'd love to hear those stories.. were they related to books you'd published?

I hope none of your books were Oprah's book club selections. I've learned to avoid those like the plague.

-- CarolynJohnston - 14 Dec 2005

I'm thinking you go on and complain about the dreaded ms. Roth and then halfway through they bring her out from behind the stage and Jerry Springeresque antics ensue.

Grade your school. Is it first-rate or failing?

Do you teach in a public school that isn’t making the grade? Or is your school beating the odds? Tell us what’s working and what’s not. Is your school overcrowded, under-funded or falling apart? Has your school been declared “failing” because of low test scores or high dropout rates? Do you have students in your classroom who are reading far below grade level? Are you seeing more and more students who can’t pass the exit exam required to graduate? How do you think these problems can be fixed? We also want to hear from teachers about public schools that have found a way to turn around test scores and keep students from dropping out. Why do you think your school is beating the odds? What lessons can be learned from your experiences? Why do you think so many public schools are struggling when yours is not? We want to hear from you, but please email us only if you are willing to tell your story on The Oprah Winfrey Show.

-- KDeRosa - 14 Dec 2005

I'm thinking you go on and complain about the dreaded ms. Roth and then halfway through they bring her out from behind the stage and Jerry Springeresque antics ensue.

that works

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005

let's see....why was I on Oprah?

One time it was for a SELF MAGAZINE article I wrote about whether it was OK to date your best friend's ex boyfriend.

(I think I said it wasn't.)

The other time....what was it?

I forget.

sheesh

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Dec 2005