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THis relates to a point E.D. Hirsch makes in the "Cargo Cult Science" paper that I posted about yesterday.

He says that ed research would be more valid if it did long term, longitudinal studies that looked at long-term outcome on a pupil-by-pupil basis, instead of how a class is doing by the end of the year.

The jargon for this is that the pupil should be the 'unit of analysis' in ed research , not the whole class.

The fact that EM improved test scores and performance 3-fold in Schaumberg doesn't mean much if a kid's performance takes a nosedive in middle school.

That's a bit alarming that the teacher got panicked when you mentioned fractions.

-- CarolynJohnston - 07 Sep 2005

Welcome back!

Okay, well now, that was a scary story. They don't seem to be making the connection that the middle school grades might have been affected by the grade school curriculum.

Parents really don't trust themselves, do they?

-- SusanS - 07 Sep 2005

they sure don't

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

She panicked over algebra.

It really was panic, too. She held her hands out like almost as if she was warding off an attacker--and the 'attacker' was simply the idea of algebra.

I wasn't being hostile or pressuring.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

People really do panic at the very thought of math.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

I see it all the time.

This is one of my 'outlier' traits, low panic.

I'm coming to realize that the entire reason I 'took this on' is that I'm a taker-onner. It's temperament.

Virtually every parent in Irvington is highly, HIGHLY educated, super-successful, super- or at least reasonably affluent, and over and over again parents tell me, 'I was never any good at math.'

Christopher's 4th grade teacher told us practically every parent comes in in a state of agitation over math. They always say, 'I was never any good.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

Illinois Loop has a survey of the math programs used in the vast Chicago suburbs. The suburbs are saturated by a thick constructivist blob. It goes from fuzzy to fuzziest. And the fuzzy types portray themselves as an embattled minority!

There are isolated cases downstate of Saxon math.

Note: The Chicago suburb is spelled Schaumburg. Even Illinois Loop got it wrong.

-- CharlesH - 08 Sep 2005

hey--how'd I spell it???

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

yikes!

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

back in a minute

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

alright, much better

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

well, charles, you got me started

i ordered THE WAR ON EXCELLENCE a couple of minutes ago

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

"Parents really don't trust themselves, do they?"

This reminds me of some parents that seem to know exactly what they want for sports instruction. Basics. Drills. Practice. Hard work. These are not crazed sports fanatics. However, for education, they are not sure. The teachers talk about other things. Discovery. Problem solving. Developmentally appropriate. Real world thematic learning. Spiraling. They don't know what to think. They have strong opinions against the "everyone gets a trophy" attitude in sports, but get all confused when the teachers tell them that all kids are the same, they just learn differently.

-- SteveH - 08 Sep 2005

"People really do panic at the very thought of math."

And these are the people who are selecting the K-8 math curricula.

-- SteveH - 08 Sep 2005

Excellent!

I hope you got a good used book through amazon. I paid the exhorbitant price when the book came out because I couldn't wait and the libraries didn't have it.

The middle grades are a particular target of a radical dumbing-down movement. The movement uses the term "middle school" as a shibboleth to distinguish them from junior high schools (too academic). Some of the gurus of the movement are one Paul S. George and one John H. Lounsbury.

If I find time, I'd like to quote from the only book we used when I took courses to get a middle grades endorsement. It's hair-raising stuff. Essentially, the book told us that teaching academic subjects makes one complicit in genocide, slavery, all sorts of oppression and so on.

-- CharlesH - 08 Sep 2005

I am interested in reading this book -- when it comes out in softcover! This baby is 54 smackers on Amazon!

I wonder -- why are middle schools targeted for mediocrity in particular -- or did she just focus on them for this book?

I have noticed that the pace is much slower and easier in this middle school Ben's in. In a way it's a relief, because Ben is struggling with changing classes, keeping organized, etc.. But I would rather he were still in a single-class elementary-like environment with a more challenging curriculum. The elementary school Ben went to was a Core Knowledge school. With one exception, the curriculum is less rigorous now; the exception is science. I always thought Ben's school overemphasized history and social studies, and underemphasized science.

-- CarolynJohnston - 08 Sep 2005

The War Against Excellence is available in paperback for half the price.

I think the reason middle schools are a particular target of this movement is because it is easier to impose an agenda on something isolated and built from scratch than it is on existing structures.

-- CharlesH - 08 Sep 2005

Charles--we MUST get our hands on that textbook!

What's the title??????

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

Hi Steve!

They have strong opinions against the "everyone gets a trophy" attitude in sports, but get all confused when the teachers tell them that all kids are the same, they just learn differently.

Yeah, but everyone DOES get trophies. We have trophies out the wazoo around here, and Christopher isn't even athletic (though he loves sports....)

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

It makes me wonder what is being covered on the elementary tests if their scores went up so dramatically. I keep thinking about that Everyday Math problem you posted a while back - the one which didn't actually have any math on it. If they re-wrote the tests to cover the areas that Everyday Math emphasizes, while skimping on fundamentals which are needed later on, it's not surprising that you'd see a jump at the elementary level and a drop in middle school.

That's what I find so troubling about Everyday Math. It essentially conceals the lack of skills by reducing expectations until a later date (they'll pick it up later as they get more exposure to it); by the time anyone realizes that their kids can't add, it's somebody else's problem. If the middle schools changed curriculum, then changed the tests to reflect the reduced content, you'd likely see the same jump in scores while producing teenagers who need a calculator to find 7*8.

-- IndependentGeorge - 08 Sep 2005

The two things that really bug me about this post:

1. The parent who thinks it's normal not to be able to help a 4th grader on schoolwork. I don't want to seem like I'm saying, "My parents are better than your parents nyah nyah!", but... My parents are immigrants who could barely speak English when they arrived in America, yet they went out of their way to understand every last detail of what their kids were being taught, and filled in the gaps as best they could (in fact, annoyingly so, from my childhood perspective). Not being a parent myself, I don't want to be overly judgemental or condescending, but... that sounds like a shirking of responsibility more than anything else.

2. Speaking of which, why does the first grade teacher think she's not responsible for teaching the fundamentals which will be used later? We're not asking her to teach the actual algebra or geometry; but we do need her to teach the basic skills they will need to do it later on. Why does she not think she has anything do with that? How can she be so disinterested in knowing what skills they'll need later on? What she's essentially saying is, "Not my problem."

-- IndependentGeorge - 08 Sep 2005

"If they re-wrote the tests to cover the areas that Everyday Math emphasizes, while skimping on fundamentals which are needed later on, it's not surprising that you'd see a jump at the elementary level and a drop in middle school."

That is EXACTLY what they are doing in Illinois. I've had teachers tell me so. The state tests are starting to require things like writing out exactly how you would solve a problem as opposed to solving the problem and showing your work. The teachers feel forced to spend time teaching how to write about it so their kids will do okay on the tests.

I agree that this could mask problems for a longer period (until they try to get into college or take an international test of some sort) if the state standards just want the kids to regurgitate these particular curriculums. For all those a little on the fence about NCLB, it might be one advangage to having it around.

-- SusanS - 08 Sep 2005

Go back to the post from NYCHOLD website (we have it around here somewhere). The author (can't remember who) showed that all of the tests only require whole numbers and only math that is taught up to the third grade. So while the language is harder on an either grade test, the math is not. He even compared the tests to Singapore math problems and showed that the eighth grade assessment tests were equivalent to grade 1-3 Singapore problems.

Sorry about the vagueness of this. I tend to read and absorb the material but forget where it came from. That's why I rely so much on Catherine!!

-- AnneDwyer - 08 Sep 2005

Anne,

You might be referring to Mr. Hoven's testimony.

I had something about that on my site.

Catherine,

I'll locate that imfamous book we used for middle grades endorsement.

-- CharlesH - 08 Sep 2005

My parents are immigrants who could barely speak English when they arrived in America, yet they went out of their way to understand every last detail of what their kids were being taught, and filled in the gaps as best they could

wow.

That's incredible!

Good for them.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

Anne & Charles: Hoven is one of the posts; the other is Loveless of Brookings.

I'll find it...

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

Here's Tom Loveless:

Despite sharply rising test scores on both the NAEP Math and most state math tests, the Brown Center's analysis of the difficulty of the math items at fourth and eighth grade demonstrates that the NAEP test fails to assess essential arithmetic skills that are required for success in algebra and higher mathematics. "The good news is that NAEP scores have risen dramatically in mathematics over the past decade," noted Tom Loveless, director of the Brown Center on Education Policy and author of the 2004 Brown Center Report on American Education. "But, given our findings, it is unclear whether this is a significant accomplishment in terms of substantial gains in mathematics skills and knowledge."

The National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP as it is commonly known, assesses fourth, eighth, and twelfth grade students in math and reading. Scores on the math assessments have risen dramatically over the last 10 years, indicating that U.S. students are becoming more adept at mathematics.

But the Brown Center analysis shows that the NAEP math assessments rely on arithmetic skills that are far below the grade levels of the students being assessed. The analysis finds that almost all problem solving items use whole numbers and avoid fractions, decimals, and percentages – forms of numbers that students must know how to use to tackle higher order mathematics like algebra.

Brookings press release

Here's the original ktm post

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Sep 2005

Catherine - well, it's a bit less amazing than it seems at first. My Dad did get a few English lessons before coming to America, so he wasn't a complete novice (though my Mom didn't speak any).

Plus, they were living in the states for 7 years before my brother so rudely elbowed his way into their lives, so they were in America for a good 12 years before they started harassing our English-speaking teachers.

They were very much the stereotypical overbearing Asian parents, God bless 'em. I hated it back then, but I'm glad for it now, and plan to be every bit as obnoxious with my own hypothetical future children. That's why the story of the mother of the forth grade mother really bugged me. Looking back, I'm kind of embarassed I reacted the way I did. It's just so alien to me that she wouldn't expect to be able to help her kid with the schoolwork.

-- IndependentGeorge - 08 Sep 2005

George,

thank you for blessing stereotypical overbearing parents... I sometimes wonder whether I'm going to give my son an Overbearing Mother Complex or something.

-- CarolynJohnston - 09 Sep 2005