• no teaching of process I have mixed feelings about teaching writing-as-process. This has been the dominant approach for decades now, and Ed says he's seen student writing improve dramatically over the past 20 years in form, but not content. I'm not sure why writing-as-process sets off my bad-curriculum sensors; I'll have to figure it out. However, in this case there should have been some kind of teaching-of-process somewhere. This is a pure product approach, with no instruction at all, and no intermediate stages or steps. If this teacher wanted a Major Research Product—an assignment beyond the capacities and knowledge of these 6th grade children—she needed to be taking them through the stages. She didn't.

• starting at the top The persuasive essay is the calculus of writing. College kids can't do it; first-year Masters candidates can't do it. Moreover, most college kids and entry-level Masters candidates can't identify the argument implicit in nonfiction texts; most college kids and entry-level Masters candidates have no idea there is an argument implicit in nonfiction texts. This is why I'm interested in the Everything's An Argument text.

This isn't it.




^* That's a stupid answer.

Back to main page.

Comments

Not to mention that the instruction in I.A. is missing an apostrophe.

-- KtmGuest - 15 Dec 2005

ktm guest

thank you

I didn't even see that.

unbelievable

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I'd put money on it he doesn't know what 'elaboration' is.

It's possible he knows what a topic sentence is, because of his teacher last year. She was incredible.

She may have been able to teach 'elaboration,' and she would certainly have spent time on it. But it's a difficult concept; I don't think any of our kids here would emerge from 5th grade with a well-developed sense of what 'elaboration' is.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I'm posting this 'out of sight'......this was Ed's email.

The last paragraph is unbelievable.

We didn't sign the paper, and we didn't return it to the school. We have it.

We also didn't sign or return the Grade Contract form.


Dear Ms. Roth,

My wife and I have serious concerns about the writing curriculum in your class and about your grading methods and lack of constructive assessment of our son's work. Catherine and I know something about writing, having published six books between us, with two more in the works. (Catherine's most recent book, Animals in Translation, was a NY Times bestseller.) Any writer knows that the way you learn to write is by practice, practice, practice--practice with lots of constructive feedback, praise for what's done right, and detailed suggestions for what ought to change. We don't see anything of the sort going on in your class. We don't see the sequence of writing, feedback, and revision that makes for a strong piece of work. We see cryptic comments that seem designed to wound rather than instruct, comments that contain no positive advice.

I've been a teacher and educator for 25 years, and one of the things I learned early on was that you must always highlight the positive aspects of a student's work, even if you have to look hard to find a narrow ray of light. According to you, there's not even scintilla of quality in Chris's recent piece.

We beg to differ. Take the opening sentence: "School should be a safe place, right?" This seems an excellent way to start. With just these few words, Chris has nicely set up this essay. He establishes the reader's expectations, suggesting that the reality of schools may leave those expectations unfulfilled. Chris goes on to say that there have been shootings in certain schools and then to explain why those shootings might have occurred (bullying, parental abuse, violent video games). Next, he suggests how the shootings might be stopped and then tersely sums up what he's said. All this in 175 words! Not bad for a novice writer with no real instruction under his belt.

The paper deserves an A; your having given it a D would be laughable, except that you have made Chris cry. You should know, by the way, that Chris wrote this paper entirely on his own; we gave him not an ounce of help. We're well aware that other parents are writing their kids' papers, but if Chris is to learn to write, he needs to do it himself.

Last year at the MSS, Chris was one of the two kids nominated for Westchester's country-wide distinguished student award. He earned 4s on both his math and ELA standardized tests. Now his grades are sinking, his confidence gone, his behavior sliding downhill. He has not done these things to himself.

We can, of course, teach Chris ourselves, and we've been doing a huge amount of home schooling since he entered the IMS. But teaching is your job and the taxpayers of this village are paying you generously to do it. But instead of teaching, what do we find on the paper of our son's you have just returned? We find, in red, the following: "No cards" "No draft" "Very short for a major research product" "no work cited page." If he needed to turn in note cards, failing to do so is a problem, though a minor one; no writer is asked to attach notes to a finished piece. As for the "No draft" problem, a draft is useful only if you comment on it, enabling the student to produce a stronger final piece. Did you ask students to hand in a draft several days before the finished product was due? If so, why did you fail to mention to Chris that he had not handed his in?

Turning now to "very short for a major research product," is this what the assignment was supposed to be? If so, where--and how--did you make this clear? Have you taught these sixth graders how to do "major research?" (My students at NYU, average SAT 1400+, don't come in knowing how to do "major research.") Did you make explicit to them (and us) what major research involves? As for the "no work cited page," Chris says he handed one in.

Apart from a couple of small errors circled in the text, you say nothing else, save of course for the letter grade of "D." It goes without saying that we refuse to sign this paper. The grade you've given it is a travesty and we hope very much that you won't let it stand.

Yours,

Ed Berenson
Catherine Johnson

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

In my opinion, this letter is in no way over the top. Harsh, perhaps, but not over the top.

It is the equivalent of giving a teacher a D for teaching and then explaining why and giving constructive criticism as to why the grade is appropriate, which is ironically one of the reasons she deserved the D in the first place.

I suspect the reason why the principal stuck to generalities is because he isn't able to rebut the specifics. If anything, it reflects poorly on him as well as an administrator since it is his job to keep the teachers in line.

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

In my opinion, this letter is in no way over the top. Harsh, perhaps, but not over the top.

you scare me

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I have to agree with KDeRosa^?. Ed is only stating factual information, with the exception of the comment about her being paid "generously" -- find me a teacher that agrees with that! I don't find the letter a bit over the top. Good for Ed.

BTW, my friend's fourth grader had a similiar writing experience. No instruction, no corrections, no suggestions on the rough draft and then a lousy grade on the final.

-- NicksMama - 15 Dec 2005

This assignment of Christopher's sounds a lot like my own 6th grade Major Research Project, with several important differences:

We did all our reading, writing, revising, etc. in class with help from the teacher as neeeded.

She taught us how to take notes on index cards so as not to plagarize. As we worked, she would come peruse our cards to ensure that we did them properly. We turned these cards in.

We spent 2-3 months on this project. The requirements were clearly stated. We knew exactly how long it had to be (5-10 pages double-spaced), exactly how many sources we had to have, etc. There was no guesswork involved. Our parents were even given a long letter describing the process (though we worked on it at school). The only step that required "homework" was we had to find someone to type our finished papers.

There were no D's or F's on this paper, because we had constant feedback and support. Basically, unlike Christopher's teacher, my teacher actually taught us.

-- AndyJoy - 15 Dec 2005

Well, I am a lawyer and at the end of law school right after they drained our blood they did install a thick-skin exoskeleton. That might account for some of it. That, and the fact that I send and receive letters like this every day.

All joking aside, the fact that Ed methodically backed-up all of his assertions takes this letter out of the over-the-top category.

And, to prove my point, I bet no one will be able to win a game of logically fallacy bingo with Ed's letter.

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

I agree with Ken. Your "top" is quite a bit lower than mine, at least.

Were I to write a letter like that, it would fall into the category of "annoyed", or perhaps "seriously annoyed". I have at least two higher gears for "angry" and "high dudgeon".

(FWIW, I try hard to avoid both "angry" and "high dudgeon", because they tend to be less effective.)

It doesn't look bad to me at all.

-- DougSundseth - 15 Dec 2005

Just being a devil's advocate for a sec here:

It looks like your son missed I.B and I.C. based on what I read on your website. A one liner for Sectio n I does seem a little thin.

-- AlexStrifflerHernandez - 15 Dec 2005

Catherine, I agree with Ken et al: Ed's letter is reasonable and not at all over the top. Perhaps I've been in math for too long, but it seems to me that Ed has presented a proof of his assertion that her teaching was inadequate. If I were its recipient, I would have to conclude that I had messed up. I would also know exactly what I had to do to improve.

I don't think there is a lot of know-how out there about teaching writing. Kids seem expected to pick it up by osmosis. Most of what Ben knows about writing, he learned from his tutor/therapist Laura, not in school.

-- CarolynJohnston - 15 Dec 2005

I suspect the reason why the principal stuck to generalities is because he isn't able to rebut the specifics. If anything, it reflects poorly on him as well as an administrator since it is his job to keep the teachers in line.

you know, this was an amazing, amazing scene; I wish everyone here could have seen it; I wish we had a post-game videotape to analyze

It does reflect poorly on the principal as an administrator, which of course was Ed's point when he said, 'I wouldn't get an email like this.'

When Ed got home last night, he said the same thing I had said, which was that the 'I would never get an email like this' line was just freaking unbelievable.

I had an epiphany, watching the whole thing unfold.

hmmm.....

I'm thinking about good manners, and discretion.....

ok

Ed's email, in a school context, is over the top. It's preemptive war; the analogy is correct.

When I read it, I felt exhilarated.

I wouldn't make a good captain, but I'm a terrific second in command (I know this from experience), and I probably was born to be a Marine, except I'm the wrong sex.

I read that email and thought, Let's go.

Until yesterday, I'd never seen 'dipomatic aggression' up close. I guess that's what you'd call it.

Ed took command of the meeting. He pulled rank, and he did so deliberately and consciously.

He opened with a statement of his experience and mine; he said that our concerns about the school's philosophy and pedagogy reflect 25 years of blah-blah-blah (I couldn't produce this stuff if you paid me, but it rolls off Ed's tongue and it sounds good).

The principal's next line—his very next line—was, "Do you think this school is harsh?"

Ed said, "Yes."

The meeting was over then.

It went on for an hour or more, at least. But it was over.

Ed was ferocious (for that context he was ferocious), but he was ferocious in an almost bizarrely constructive way.

(Which you've said.)

By the end of the meeting, the principal was asking Ed for feedback about the rest of the program; he was looking to him for advice.

That's what he should do, I would say. He's been a principal for two years; Ed's been an administrator forever.

To me, It reflects well on the principal that he could solicit Ed's opinion. But it's a sign of Ed's brilliance at whatever-this-skill-is that he could shape a highly adversarial, emotional meeting into a setting in which he could call this new, young principal on the carpet and have the principal end up asking for our feedback on other elements of the program we hadn't come to discuss.

I've just never seen anything like it. I think the word is probably 'diplomacy'; that's probably the skill we're talking about.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

No instruction, no corrections, no suggestions on the rough draft and then a lousy grade on the final.

How did they handle it?

btw, if your friend wants to use parts or all of this letter, she should do so

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

We did all our reading, writing, revising, etc. in class with help from the teacher as neeeded.

Andy

Thanks so much—I'll get that pulled up front.

Yes, that's teaching.

The only way a 6th grader can do a 'major research product' is through step-by-step teaching.

Alex

It looks like your son missed I.B and I.C. based on what I read on your website. A one liner for Sectio n I does seem a little thin.

There's no way he fulfilled the 'persuasive essay' aspect of the assignment, or the 'major research product' part of the assignment.

He did, however, write an excellent 'feature story' for an 11-year old kid.

I'll put his Feature Story up against anything they post in TIME for Kids. It won't be as good, BUT HE'S 11.

The problem here is that he had no idea what the assignment was; the assignment itself was b*s; and he had no instruction.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Ed's letter is reasonable and not at all over the top. Perhaps I've been in math for too long, but it seems to me that Ed has presented a proof of his assertion that her teaching was inadequate.

You guys are a hoot!

Actually, though, this is interesting.......because in the context of our school the email was over the top and we knew it.

boy

You're right that a letter that backs up every assertion with evidence and logic shouldn't be treated as behaviorially inappropriate and 'emotional.'

The principal's plan—and this wasn't Machiavellian, it was heartfelt and 'real'—was to go through our email line by line and complain that it was over the top, emotional, inappropriate, etc.

It was the Grade Contract all over again.

We were going to tell how we would do it differently in the future.

Of course, the fact that that was his approach gave us a tremendous opening to underline, state, and re-state (what was Ken's 3-part Roadmap thing???) our position.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I don't think there is a lot of know-how out there about teaching writing.

boy

I'm just now getting this. A little slow on the uptake here.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

logical fallacy bingo

WHEN DID YOU DO THIS???

I LOVE IT!!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

(what was Ken's 3-part Roadmap thing???)

Tell him what you are about to tell him. (the roadmap)

"A great curriculum has two major components: mastery teaching and formative assessment. DI is a great curriculum because it has both these things. It has mastery teaching because x; It has formative assessment because y." (You've just given the reader/listener a checklist that he can use to follow your argument to see if you've made your points)

Then tell him what you want to tell him. (the meat of the argument)

(Now you explain the x and y in detail.)

Then tell him what you just told him. (the conclusion/recap)

(Now you review the checklist.) "So you can plainly see that since DI has mastery learning because it has X and formative assessment becasue it has Y; DI is clearly a great curriculum becasue all great curricula include these things."

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

I better put this up front too!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

You're right that a letter that backs up every assertion with evidence and logic shouldn't be treated as behaviorially inappropriate and 'emotional.'

No, it shouldn't. If it's viewed that way, it would make it extremely difficult to have a rational dialogue about teaching methods at all.

Of course, perhaps that's the intention. If their position is that their methods are beyond reproach by parents because they are the experts, then they're absolved of the requirement to answer criticism.

-- CarolynJohnston - 15 Dec 2005

No instruction, no corrections, no suggestions on the rough draft and then a lousy grade on the final.

How did they handle it?

btw, if your friend wants to use parts or all of this letter, she should do so

-- CatherineJohnson^? - 15 Dec 2005

Catherine,

Well, he passed into fifth grade so his mom wasn't upset about it. She is pretty hands off when it come to his education. When she told me that his school was going to use EM and I told her what I knew about it. She said she wasn't worried because "its only elementary school - I can't get that worked up over it."

-- NicksMama - 15 Dec 2005

Nicks Mama

oh gosh

the thing is, until last year I didn't realize how cumulative these things are myself

It's amazing how little I understood about what was going on, and about what needed to go on

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Carolyn

you know.....this is something that keeps cropping up: the Change of Subject

Let's not talk about the teaching, or what happened to Christopher; let's talk about your email

The meeting didn't go that way, but it would have if we'd let it

Remember how I said I've finally realized school officials can throw me off the case?

They'll introduce some red herring or other, and I'll bite.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Nicks Mama

oh gosh

the thing is, until last year I didn't realize how cumulative these things are myself

It's amazing how little I understood about what was going on, and about what needed to go on

Having homeschooled from the beginning, I have to tread lightly with public school moms about what their schools are doing and any informaton I offer is pretty much dismissed. At least that is the impression I get. However, when they can't figure out their kid's EM homework, they call me, so maybe some of it sinks in.

-- NicksMama - 15 Dec 2005

I just looked up a Time for Kids feature essay!

warming update

Global warming is melting the cap of ice that covers much of the Arctic Ocean. This is causing oceans to get warmer and sea levels to rise, scientists and world leaders said at a meeting on global warming. Most scientists agree this is putting plants, animals and people are at risk.

World leaders from more than 180 nations just wrapped up a meeting about the problem of global warming. Leaders from nearly 150 nations made more than 40 decisions, including continuing current efforts to reduce pollution in the future. However, the U.S. refused to take part in those efforts.

Rising Temperatures
During the past 100 years, the average temperature of earth's atmosphere has gone up 1 degree Fahrenheit. In the Arctic region, scientists say the temperature has risen 7 degrees in 50 years!

Many scientists believe that the biggest causes of global warming are new human technologies that release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. These gases - like carbon dioxide - are called greenhouse gases because they keep the earth warm like a greenhouse. The U.S. emits more greenhouse gases than any other nation.

A Call to Cut Pollution
The United Nations Climate Change Conference was held over two weeks in Montreal, Canada. About 10,000 people attended the meeting. It was the first meeting since the energy agreement, the Kyoto Protocol, took effect last February.

One hundred and forty countries signed the Kyoto Protocol in 1997. The U.S. did not. President George W. Bush said he worried the agreement would hurt businesses and ruin the U.S. economy. Countries who signed the agreement promised to decrease the amount of greenhouse gases they emitted each year.

"It's such a pity the United States is still very much unwilling to join the international community...to deal with climate change," said Kenya's Emily Ojoo Massawa, the leader of the African group of nations at the meeting.

On Friday, former President Bill Clinton said President Bush is "flat wrong" to say that reducing greenhouse gas emissions will damage the U.S. economy. Clinton encouraged world leaders to find a way to work with the U.S. to fight global warming.

This is 348 words, written by an adult professional, compared to 175 words written by a kid.

The prose and organization compare favorably to what Christopher did.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

These people really have their nerve.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Having homeschooled from the beginning, I have to tread lightly with public school moms about what their schools are doing and any informaton I offer is pretty much dismissed. At least that is the impression I get. However, when they can't figure out their kid's EM homework, they call me, so maybe some of it sinks in.

How do you handle their questions?

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Here's my best red herring story.

We've been in the middle of a HUGE battle over Jimmy's transition program (which is now just about completely resolved, with a terrific outcome).

Anyway, at the most important meeting, to which we brought an Advocate (attorney), one of the main people there, whose job it is to develop and deliver work training for Jimmy, said to me, 'But you have to remember, work isn't everything. Jimmy needs recreation, he needs friends, he needs a rounded life.'

Work isn't everything.

Her job was, specifically, and legally, to develop vocational training and deliver it.

And she's telling me work isn't everything.

This is the kind of thing I spent years falling for.

And of course it's emotional and value-laden, just as the analysis of the email was.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I'm thinking I'm starting to formulate my Global Rhetorical Strategy.

Part one: repeat, repeat, repeat. (I'll get Ken's roadmap thingie tattooed to my forehead soon.)

Part two: complete and total rejection of all Values Talk.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I just looked up a Time for Kids feature essay!

Bingo!

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

Having homeschooled from the beginning, I have to tread lightly with public school moms about what their schools are doing and any informaton I offer is pretty much dismissed. At least that is the impression I get. However, when they can't figure out their kid's EM homework, they call me, so maybe some of it sinks in.

How do you handle their questions?

-- CatherineJohnson^? - 15 Dec 2005

Well, after listening them say "I don't understand this and my kid doesn't understand this", I say "yes, what you are looking at (worksheet from EM) is exactly what you need to expect from this math curriculum." Then I proceed to try to figure out the answers to the worksheet with the parent (hey, I think this is her kid's homework!). After much scratching of heads (see Problem6 posts for the type of problems I am dealing with), our collaboration nets us a completed assignment. At this point I get a "thanks, I knew you could help us/me/student." As I hang up the phone, I sigh and wish I had a bachelor's so I could open a Kumon center and be rich. This county is going to need one. Soon.

-- NicksMama - 15 Dec 2005

That reminds me of a Coffee-with-the-Principal moment.

(Carolyn & I have already talked about this, so it's a repeat for her.)

The school has purchased a website service that allows teachers to post their test schedules & homework, etc.

At the time of the coffee, the teachers weren't using it. It was there, we were paying for it, and the teachers weren't posting anything.

The parents were grousing about this, until one of the principals—Raina Kor, I believe—said, and I'm close to quoting, 'But if we put everything online, some parents will get obsessive and keep checking the website dozens of times a day.'

THIS THREW VIRTUALLY EVERY PARENT IN THE ROOM OFF THE SCENT.

They all agreed strongly with the assistant principal that some parents would check the website too often, which would be a bad thing, so........

...so it was probably just as well most of the teachers weren't posting anything on the website anyway

This was the one case where I managed to win a point (in my own mind, at least)—and where Ed, in fact, didn't handle the issue effectively.

The principal developed her point by saying, next, that 'Some parents don't want everything posted on the web in detail.' (The postings are confidential; that's not the issue. Her claim was that there were obsessive parents who wanted to be saved from themselves, and wished the school to limit the amount of material posted because if every teacher posted everything they'd get sucked in.)

Ed said, meaningfully, 'All the parents want to see their children's grades and schedules.' Something like that.

This worked in a one-on-one meeting with the principal.

But in a roomful of mothers it was a disaster.

One parent jumped in and said, 'I'm one of those parents who would check too often.' Others nodded and said, 'A lot of people will check too often.'

The assistant principal nodded, and said, 'That's right. There are parents who really don't want to be flooded with information about their children's school day. We have to respect their wishes.'

She had that quasi-legalistic, These Are The Rules tone school people use.

Then it was my turn to talk.

I said, 'Why do you have to respect those parents' wishes?'

This got a look.

'You have two sets of parents. You have parents who want to see their children's information posted on the web, and you have parents who don't. You have to make a choice. Why are you choosing to respect the wishes of those other parents? Why aren't you choosing to respect my wishes, and the wishes of my group?'

That completely stopped the conversation. Completely.

One thing I run into, over and over again, is THE NEED TO RESPECT THE WISHES OF AN ABSENT GROUP OF STAKEHOLDERS.

For some reason, people instantly defer to the putative wishes of other parents who aren't present.

I don't know why.

People take on that sanctimonious, hushed, moral 'tone,' and everyone starts nodding.

When I reframed it as a case of a principal choosing to disrespect the wishes of one group in order to respect the wishes of the absent group (EVERYONE present wanted their kids' material posted on the web—EVERYONE) the whole thing crumbled.

At that point we had frankness.

The assistant principal said that, in fact, they want all the teachers to put everything up, but that a lot of teachers were phobic about the technology. Their plan was to have the early adopters bring them along, rather than order them outright to do it.

That is an answer.

'There are parents who don't want everything online' is not an answer.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Ken

Wait!

Which logical fallacy did I just violate!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

As I hang up the phone, I sigh and wish I had a bachelor's so I could open a Kumon center and be rich. This county is going to need one. Soon.

You know, if you're serious about KUMON, I would talk to them regardless of whether you have a Bachelor's.

KUMON is all about competency; you take a KUMON course, and you pass a proficiency test.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Which logical fallacy did I just violate!

Not you, the TIME article.

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

I didn't even read it!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

ok, now i did

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

i hate to even THINK about the number of logical fallacies in Christopher's article on SCHOOL VIOLENCE

sigh

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

of course, the good thing is, nobody who read it noticed anything about the logic and reasoning AT ALL

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

From what I've seen, you don't get rich running a Kumon center. It's basically a small business model, and a good one.

But you don't need a bachelor's either. You need to know more about running a business than you do about teaching, from what I've seen.

-- CarolynJohnston - 15 Dec 2005

Susan Wise Bauer's tape "Writing without Fear" is just excellent (available at peacehillpress.com). She gives an overview on teaching kids how to write from K-12. It really reduced my anxiety on teaching my kids how to write. It's only $6-7, and well worth a listen.

My learning-to-write experience (analogous to AndyJoy^?'s) was in 7th or 8th grade, I think... yeah, Mr. Miller's class... in private school. We had a required minimum number of sources of sufficient variety (not all encyclopedias or whatnot), note cards due one week, rough draft due a few weeks later (returned to us with comments/corrections), and a final draft in a report cover with all of our supporting materials. I remember photocopying a lot of pages at the library, LOL. It was a research paper on a country, IIRC. I think I picked Ireland. We were told what kind of information we had to include, and it was ALL FACTS, NOT OPINIONS. We had to talk about population, major industries, that sort of thing.

I had to do one similar in scope on the framing of the Constitution in AP History in 11th grade.

-- BrendaM - 15 Dec 2005

Susan Wise Bauer's tape "Writing without Fear" is just excellent (available at peacehillpress.com). She gives an overview on teaching kids how to write from K-12. It really reduced my anxiety on teaching my kids how to write. It's only $6-7, and well worth a listen.

Really?

Does she talk about nonfiction writing?

I keep seeing a lot of writing-about-literature in all these programs....

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

We had a required minimum number of sources of sufficient variety (not all encyclopedias or whatnot), note cards due one week, rough draft due a few weeks later (returned to us with comments/corrections), and a final draft in a report cover with all of our supporting materials. I remember photocopying a lot of pages at the library, LOL. It was a research paper on a country, IIRC. I think I picked Ireland. We were told what kind of information we had to include, and it was ALL FACTS, NOT OPINIONS. We had to talk about population, major industries, that sort of thing.

Another one for the front page.

OF COURSE THIS IS THE WAY YOU DO IT

And you absolutely don't start with opinions.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

But you don't need a bachelor's either. You need to know more about running a business than you do about teaching, from what I've seen.

You absolutely don't need a Bachelors (in the abstract—they may require it, but you don't need it) though you do need to know math up to a certain level (and they'll teach you).

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

There is some teaching, and you have to be prepared.

I see Mr. Liu sitting with kids helping them every week.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

That's not really the model, but when kids can't do the material, the owner has to step in.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

KDeRosa^? wrote: Well, I am a lawyer and at the end of law school right after they drained our blood they did install a thick-skin exoskeleton. That might account for some of it. That, and the fact that I send and receive letters like this every day.

You know, as a lawyer (and an INSURANCE COMPANY lawyer to boot) I see letters and emails like this daily too. And I've written my share of them (usually before IEP meetings:) If it doesn't contain profanity or accuse me of committing a crime, it's not really over the top yet.

I view it as a very professional email, specifically stating your arguments and giving good support for them. In fact, many attorneys do not do as good of a job at this. The school probably hasn't seen too many e-mails coming directly to the point like this without skipping around it or telling them what they want to hear.

-- KathyIggy - 15 Dec 2005

You know, as a lawyer (and an INSURANCE COMPANY lawyer to boot) I see letters and emails like this daily too. And I've written my share of them (usually before IEP meetings:) If it doesn't contain profanity or accuse me of committing a crime, it's not really over the top yet.

I'm gonna start citing lawyers a whole lot.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

The school probably hasn't seen too many e-mails coming directly to the point like this without skipping around it or telling them what they want to hear.

That's certainly true.

One thing we've seen, over and over and over again, is that the ability to write a good f*** off and die letter is gold.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I have an entire file of 'f*** off and die' letters in the basement somewhere.

For awhile I had a plan to write a book of fictional FOAD letters.

Which I still might do.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

.....it was clear in the meeting that the principal just didn't have anywhere to go......

The best he had was 'you haven't been nice to my teachers.'

He told me, directly, that I had upset the study skills teacher, the one who hung up on me, and asked me to make it up with her.

Then he said, 'You know how sensitive teachers are.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

That's a quote.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

The thing is, it happens to be true.

Which is something many or most parents probably don't realize, and is another source of clout for the parents' side.

This is why, when parents say they're frightened to take on 'the school,' they should think about who they're dealing with. (whom? I'm going to have to learn who and whom finally)

These aren't your Rapacious Marauder types.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

It was pretty fun, having the principal tell us we'd been mean to Mrs. Roth.

This woman has managed to dismantle our son emotionally in the space of.....3 weeks?

And you say we've hurt her feelings?

And you're thinking we're going to feel bad about this?

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Catherine,

I think you can skip the book on all of this and go straight to the sitcom. That meeting with all of the parents is hilarious for some reason.

I've got some of the Susan Wise Baur tapes. I can always send them to you or if you come back around these parts I'll just get them to you. They're pretty interesting. Of course, they're pointed to homeschoolers.

Doug's Logic Bingo would go good with the news, also.

-- SusanS - 15 Dec 2005

I think you can skip the book on all of this and go straight to the sitcom. That meeting with all of the parents is hilarious for some reason.

I have to say......I've been thinking this over.

It IS hilarious. When you get done being harrowed, you're just sitting around laughing.

I know what you mean about these parent meetings.

What is it???

Are they triggering our 'tsk-tsk-ing mom THING'?

They do it EVERY TIME.

You have an entire room full of mothers complaining that the teachers aren't posting their test schedules and homework assignments, and the INSTANT the principal adopts the scolding-nanny-voice, they turn on a dime.

We don't want too much stuff on the internet!

Parents will be obsessed!

There will be parents who will look at it dozens of times a day!

These are quotes.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I'm sitting there going, DO I CARE HOW MANY TIMES A DAY SOME OBSESSED PARENT LOOKS AT EDLINE?

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

BELABORING THE POINT (something I will obviously have to teach Christopher to do) I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE HAD PARENTS RESPOND TO A TOPIC IN EDUCATION BY CITING OTHER PARENTS WHO WILL DO THINGS WRONG IF WE GO THAT ROUTE.

Every single time, without fail, that I raise the possibility of letting parents and kids choose their own tracks and offer extra help to the kids who need it to succeed in a fast track, I hear: "But some parents will push their kids."

Without fail.

"Some parents will push their kids."

So we have to keep the power in the hands of the schools&mdash—who won't push the kids!

(I'm thinking I pass the logic test with that one.....)

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Of course, I'll say, 'That's really not the school's business, it's the parent's business.'

I'll get pro forma assent.

But the real belief is that parents need schools to ride herd on their pushy impulses.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Doug's Logic Bingo would go good with the news, also.

Basically there's just no realm of life you couldn't play Logic Bingo.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I love it...FOAD letters. I think I have a new abbreviation to share at the office.

For awhile, I kept drafts of FOAD letters I never sent...I vented to a particulary obnoxious letter I received by writing the most obnoxious letter I could come up with, slept on it, and threw it away the next day. A good idea too, as our state attorney discipline commission has disciplined attorneys for using, shall we say, "colorful" and "descriptive" language about what someone could do with themselves and how they should do it.

To put that into writing is "over the top"

-- KathyIggy - 15 Dec 2005

BELABORING THE POINT (something I will obviously have to teach Christopher to do) I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE HAD PARENTS RESPOND TO A TOPIC IN EDUCATION BY CITING OTHER PARENTS WHO WILL DO THINGS WRONG IF WE GO THAT ROUTE.

I too have seen this argument made. It's a variant of the "we need gov't to protect us from ourselves" meme.

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

A good idea too, as our state attorney discipline commission has disciplined attorneys for using, shall we say, "colorful" and "descriptive" language about what someone could do with themselves and how they should do it.

To put that into writing is "over the top"

That's for darn sure.

Our letter was over the top for the context, and purposely so.

But judged by any kind of ABSOLUTE, ABSTRACT PRINCIPLE of OVER THE TOP.......it was a picnic.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

The downside of our situation, possibly, is that the principal is so young. He's so young he still talks about his dad a lot.

A competent middle-aged principal either wouldn't get that letter in the first place, or, if he did, he'd know this isn't a situation to screw around with (excuse the language).

Definitely not a situation where you want to pull up the email on your computer and do a critique.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

That was another funny thing.

At one point the principal decided to tell us Christopher's paper wasn't any good, and deserved its D.

I must have had a murderous look on my face, because at some point he looked at me and just stopped in his tracks.

That was a whole Scene, in fact.

First he starts in on how the 'hook' was ungrammatical.

Then he tells us he's showed the paper to all the other teachers in the school, and they say it sucks, too. (whoa. LANGUAGE)

Then he says, OK, I'll take the grade and the name off and show it to everyone again (how would that work, exactly?)

And right around there he looked at my face and dropped the whole thing.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

We both missed an opportunity to ask him to show us all the essays that were turned in.

I'd like to take a look at the As.

Also the other Ds.

oops!

There weren't any other Ds!

I forgot!

My child is UNIQUELY TERRIBLE AT WRITING AND DOESN'T DO ANY WORK!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

As I say, this is the kind of situation that's so bad the seasoned administrator just makes it go away fast.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Do people say that in other industries?

'Make it go away'?

That was a big phrase in Hollywood.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

There will be parents who will look at it dozens of times a day!

They're just protecting us from our obsessive online grade checking issues.

I always love when the nanny-voice comes into play, too. The parent who was the original classroom suck-up gets to relive her childhood by shaming everyone into thinking hard about what Principal God just said.

-- SusanS - 15 Dec 2005

I use it all the time in the context of settling insurance claims which have gone to litigation.

In fact, I just used it on the phone while I was reading this.

And I use it nightly if Megan brings home her EM "Math Journal" for homework!

-- KathyIggy - 15 Dec 2005

They're just protecting us from our obsessive online grade checking issues.

I love it!

Yes!

This is a major problem for me!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

you put your finger on it

I have....oh, maybe a thousand or so MAJOR PROBLEMS I'm dealing with at any given time......obsessive checking of edline doesn't even make the list

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I always love when the nanny-voice comes into play, too. The parent who was the original classroom suck-up gets to relive her childhood by shaming everyone into thinking hard about what Principal God just said.

I CAN HEAR YOU SAYING THAT!!!!!

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Kathy

I use it all the time in the context of settling insurance claims which have gone to litigation.

In fact, I just used it on the phone while I was reading this.

perfect

That's exactly what I thought.

You use it to get rid of a problem that you can get rid of, right?

For me, the connotation is that it's fast, and you've got plenty of other stuff to deal with, so this thing can go away.

'make it go away' doesn't mean you're doing the best thing, necessarily; doesn't mean this is the way you'd handle the issue under every circumstance.

However, there's no obvious upside to prolonging the situation or standing on principle.

So make it go away.

Is that right?

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

That's the connotation I've had......I like it.

That was also our (intended) message to the principal.

Make it go away.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

It's really his only move.

That's why we were implacable talking about the email; that's why, when he said we sounded as if we had written it to 'hurt' Mrs. Roth, we said, 'We wrote it to hurt Mrs. Roth.'

You can't get a lot clearer that that.

Though, at one point, I did say, calmly, "We'll do whatever we need to do. Therapists, lawyers, whatever it takes. We'll do it."

To me, that puts the problem into the make it go away category.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Ken

I forgot to mention—it's not the same thing as the government should protect us from ourselves.

I'm not quite sure it's even a variant (though it might be).

It's more like Identification with the aggressor.

The parents who say this invariably are talking about other parents.

They are good parents themselves, but there are bad parents out there who push their children.

The school needs to protect those people's children.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

This is always at play when the school tells admiring parents about its terrific new character program.

Everyone's sitting there thinking, 'Yay! A character program for other people's children!'

Parents have an amazing capacity not to take things personally.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

Meanwhile I'm sitting there feeling more singled out and more insulted by the minute.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I have a lot of guilt.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Dec 2005

I forgot to mention—it's not the same thing as the government should protect us from ourselves

The hidden implication is the same: protection from ourselves means protecting other people from themselves. Or more specifically, from making foolish decisions for themselves.

-- KDeRosa - 15 Dec 2005

The hidden implication is the same: protection from ourselves means protecting other people from themselves. Or more specifically, from making foolish decisions for themselves.

ok, let me ask you this

the feeling I get is.....that people taking this line feel they are the government.

They identify with the government, feel they are 'part' of it.

For me, listening to this kind of thing, there's a strong power element, with the speaker being the person who holds or wields power over others.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Now I'm thinking about Ralph Nader.....(the Gladwell piece on air bags comes to mind).....

Nader wanted (and wants) the government to protect people from themselves.

Does he want the government to protect him from himself?

I tend to think not....

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Does she talk about nonfiction writing?

I went back and listened to the tape again today. She talks about writing across the whole curriculum. She gives a grade-by-grade breakdown of the kinds of skills you should be able to expect from the average kid.

I'll paraphrase the money quote for you: "In fifth grade, a child should not be writing in a journal unless he wants to."

Her point is that all kids need to be taught expository writing, but that not all kids need to learn creative writing. And they certainly shouldn't be pushed into it at a young age when they haven't been taught the "components" of the English language. She likens it to asking someone to explain a complex subject in a foreign language, when the person hasn't learned the language.

I'm botching it already; you really need to listen to the tape. She's just great.

-- BrendaM - 16 Dec 2005

I went back and listened to the tape again today. She talks about writing across the whole curriculum. She gives a grade-by-grade breakdown of the kinds of skills you should be able to expect from the average kid.

oh, that would be terrifically useful

is this just in the tape, or is it in the book, too?

I'm finally ordering a copy of the book

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Her point is that all kids need to be taught expository writing, but that not all kids need to learn creative writing.

terrific!

How much does she talk about the connection between writing, reading, and thinking?

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I'll have to ask Ken about this, too.

Reid Lyon says we really haven't done much research on the teaching of writing to older elementary school kids.

Engelmann will have data & experience, though.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I went back and listened to the tape again today. She talks about writing across the whole curriculum. She gives a grade-by-grade breakdown of the kinds of skills you should be able to expect from the average kid.

oh, that would be terrifically useful

is this just in the tape, or is it in the book, too?

The tape is a recording of a workshop; IIRC, she covers it in more depth in the book.

How much does she talk about the connection between writing, reading, and thinking?

She says she has lots of students at William and Mary who can easily tell her verbally what they want to write about, but who have extreme difficulty putting it on paper.

Basically, in grades 1-4 you teach grammar so that the more advanced skills can be learned without struggling with the basics. (Actually, she says you teach grammar until it's thoroughly mastered, even if that means you teach it in high school for some kids.) The early grades are focused on narration, copywork and dictation. Kids won't learn writing unless they can see how good writing is done.

Grades 5-8 are focused on things like outlining, finding the main idea of a paragraph, etc. She also strongly recommends teaching formal logic. (Makes logical fallacy bingo more fun to play.) Grades 9-12 are focused on things like persuasive essays and the study of formal rhetoric. If the foundation has been well-laid in the early years, "high school is a snap."

The book is great, but two things to keep in mind: ignore the minutes-per-day suggestions for the most part -- those were the publisher's idea; and the curriculum suggestions are good, but the most up-to-date info is available at the Well-Trained message boards.

Be careful -- this is the book that convinced me to homeschool. ;-D

-- BrendaM - 16 Dec 2005

She says she has lots of students at William and Mary who can easily tell her verbally what they want to write about, but who have extreme difficulty putting it on paper.

Yes, it's fascinating.

I read this awhile back, and didn't really believe it, and then Ed said it was absoulutely true.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Kids won't learn writing unless they can see how good writing is done.

Absolutely.

Great, I'll get these materials.

This is the place to start.

The other thing I need, so keep your eyes open, is material on the Brits.

How do they teach writing?

They're the best in the world; they're incredible.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

message boards

I have to dive into these.....

I've gone a couple of times, but got lost....

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

As to homeschooling, if I'm supposed to be homeschooling, then.....that's what I'll be doing.

(Of course, it's also entirely possible I'm supposed to be homeschooling and I won't be homeschooling.)

My point is, I'm not looking to avoid books that will prevent me from homeschooling.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

My point is, I'm not looking to avoid books that will prevent me from homeschooling.

Oh, well then, that just makes my job easier, he he he.

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. :-D

-- BrendaM - 16 Dec 2005

Beware. The Well-Trained Mind is a very dangerous book. After reading it, I was moved from 75% sure of homeschooling to 110% sure I was going to hs. It's my homeschooling Bible.

-- NicksMama - 16 Dec 2005

Actually, at this point our entire problem with homeschooling is that we can't afford it.

I have to earn a living to stay in this house.

We could move, sure, but moving is horrifically expensive. (We lost thousands in the last move. That may sound crazy, but it's apparently a well-known phenomenon; my sister warned me about it. She had an actual figure amount for what it costs to uproot & move.)

We could move out of this town, but then we'd lose Jimmy's & Andrew's education, which would not be reproducible elsewhere for years. (Special ed parents have to fight round the clock for programs. Jimmy has just now finally got a vocational program; that would disappear.) To get to some place significantly cheaper would mean a massive commute for Ed, and an even larger burden for me than I already have.

I could probably homeschool Christopher and hold down a job, but I can't homeschool Christopher and write a book.

I don't have the 'frontal lobe' capacity to do it, and I don't think anyone does. (I'm talking about the self-discipline involved. As a writer, I have to 'be my own boss,' set my own structure, monitor my own performance, etc. I'm not brilliant at this to begin with; I rely on hyperfocus & momentum to pull me through. If I have hyperfocus on homeschooling, which I would & which I already do, I wouldn't be able to create hyperfocus on a book.)

Basically, there's a huge financial issue here.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Without the financial issue, we'd just do it.

Even Ed is on board at this point.

With zero financial pressure, Ed would favor pulling Christopher out for the next 2 1/2 years, giving him a superb home education that might include some work in the local community college, then enrolling him in the high school.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Necessity is the mother of invention, so I 'never say never.'

That's what I mean about reading these books.

They'll tell me something I don't know now; they might inspire a way out of, or around, the financial dilemma.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

In any case, at this point the issue is simple and clear, or seems so.

Which is good.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

There is one DI writing curriculum. Expressive Writing for grades 3-6.

I did find two research studies also.

-- KDeRosa - 16 Dec 2005

Fantastic!

I'll go look right now.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

The only problem is.....will they sell to parents?

I'll check, but these are the same folks who refused to sell me the spelling text.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

I can identify with financial issues keeping one from homeschooling. My husband is the stay at home dad with my 4 month-old. Even if he did work, I would make 3-4x what he could, so my not working is not possible. And he would not have the patience to homeschool Megan; I've been the "afterschooler" since Pre-K.

The other month, when the MegaMillions^? lottery was huge, we were fantasizing about homeschooling, opening a school for kids on the autism spectrum, and making contributions to autism-related organizations.

Unfortunately, I think homeschooling will always be a fantasy....

-- KathyIggy - 16 Dec 2005

Can you take him out of school and share the homeschooling responsibility with some tutors? That isn't free, but it would probably be cheaper than private school and leave you with ultimate control over what's being taught. Just trying to be creative over here...

-- StephanieO - 16 Dec 2005

I can identify with financial issues keeping one from homeschooling. My husband is the stay at home dad with my 4 month-old. Even if he did work, I would make 3-4x what he could, so my not working is not possible. And he would not have the patience to homeschool Megan; I've been the "afterschooler" since Pre-K.

Right.

We have a very significant 'external constraint' happening here.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Stephanie

Can you take him out of school and share the homeschooling responsibility with some tutors? That isn't free, but it would probably be cheaper than private school and leave you with ultimate control over what's being taught. Just trying to be creative over here...

THANK YOU!

This web site has been worth its weight in gold for me, let me tell you.

That is an excellent idea.

This is what I'm trying to say when I say I'm not looking to avoid being persuaded to homeschool.

What needs to happen now is for the idea to percolate in my mind (and in Ed's).....as I get my new book off the ground, and that aspect of things gets stabilized.

I'll read these books, 'pick the brains' of homeschoolers here at ktm, start sniffing around for homeschoolers here in Westchester.....and at some point things will clarify.

It may well be that he'll stay in the Middle School and we'll work with the principal to bring up the level of his education. (The principal wants to talk to us more; he wants to have a 'partnership'—and he's not just saying that. We'll start pushing the concept of formative assessment very aggressively. So we may be able to make significant changes in our own school.)

But my feeling now is: Everything's on the table.

So if you have ideas about how homeschooling might work under my own (or any) circumstances, keep them coming. I'm very grateful. (It's hard to be creative about your own circumstances when you're feeling stressed about your own circumstances, which, invariably you are feeling....)

Also, any creative ideas you have about afterschooling are welcome.

I do, at this point, feel that afterschooling isn't a great route for middle schoolers (though I think it's nice in elementary school).

Nevertheless, afterschooling may be the route we have to go, in our particular circumstances.

One last thing: I think we're making headway on afterschooling.

Having Ed completely on board is tremendously helpful. There's no longer even a sliver of daylight between the two of us, and Christopher knows it.

I'm also assertively and aggressively enlisting his teachers in the case. I'm telling them they must tell Christopher to do the studying we tell him to do. Now that we know we have the principal's backing (those teachers start hopping the minute they hear from him) we're in a much stronger position there, too.

Lastly, we're coming up with innovative ways to do afterschooling (I'm able to have some creativity there).

The new 'timed practice' approach worked brilliantly on this first outing; if it works again, we're in good shape, because Christopher sees why we should do it, and because it's tightly 'limited.'

In other words, he's not having to do problem after problem because mom says so.

He's having to do 6 problems in a batch until he can do them with automaticity.

We're managing to create a DI-ish structure here, where the 'authority' is a clearly defined standard we all understand, and we all agree that he's met or not met.

Before we had Mom as Math Boss.

Now we have Automaticity as Math Boss.

Much, much better.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005

Anyway, everything's on the table; we're in a fluid state.

I kind of like those periods in life.

We'll see what we'll see.

-- CatherineJohnson - 16 Dec 2005