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16 May 2006 - 21:24
So I've spent some time this year wondering where all the Fearsome Irvington Parents you hear so much about have been hanging out. I still don't have the answer to that, but yesterday a friend told me a great scary mom story. back story: The middle school principal stresses the importance of telling. That's "telling" as in "telling on other kids." At IMS, telling is a core value. Kids are called out of class to go to the principal's office to participate in "investigations" of incidents; once there, they're supposed to tell what they know. You're not just supposed to testify on the stand, either. You have a duty to come forward if you see a violation of the code, and you get in trouble if you don't. Big trouble. A couple of weeks ago a 6th grader tried to sell a bag of oregano to another kid in the bathroom. The two boys who were already there left when they saw what was going on, but didn't tell the principal. Then somebody went and told the principal on the two boys who didn't tell the principal, and they got a two-week in-school suspension. This is a tiny little class, by the way, one hundred fifty kids or so. They've all been in school together since they were 3, so any telling they do is telling on a friend or neighbor or, in all likelihood, a friend and neighbor. Maybe that's what the administration means by "community involvement," one of the pillars of the new strategic plan. Not telling ispunished disciplined; telling is rewarded. The main Teller in the oregano incident, a kid who's in constant trouble with the principal, was informed that as his reward he would have two suspensions erased from his record and would be made a candidate for Student of the Month.* I don't know what all that kid told the principal, whether he just told on the oregano boy or whether he also told on the two boys who didn't tell. Whatever it was, I guess it was pretty good. Christian says when he goes up onstage to collect his Student of the Month award he'll be wearing a wire.
Of course, today he got suspended again, because he gave somebody the finger and someone Told. So any awards ceremonies he may be scheduled to attend will have to wait.
Naturally the whole telling business has now progressed to the point where the bolder kids have figured out they can scare the more timid kids by threatening to tell stuff that didn't happen. Which brings me to my scary mom story. Some kid told her child, who is apparently a fairly meek and law-abiding type, that he/she was going to tell the principal that the meeker child had a bag of oregano in his/her locker. (Something like that.)
So the mom called the principal to warn him that he might be hearing such a story about her child from a certain other child, and if he did hear it from this certain other child, he should ignore it.
The principal said he didn't think he could ignore it. He thought he would probably have to investigate.
The mother said, "You're an idiot."
whoa When my friend quoted the Idiot line, I said, "She said that? She really said, 'You're an idiot'?" My friend said, "That's what she said. Nobody gets in this woman's way." wow I want to meet this mom. Although I have to say I'm scared. I have never, in my entire life, called a principal (or anyone else) an idiot. About the boldest I get is harping on the math chair for using teacher passive voice. So .... I'm scared. But it's a good scared.
* Bear in mind that all of this comes from Christopher and his chums. Possibly every factoid in this narrative is skewed and/or flat wrong, but the jist is correcct. I'm pretty sure.
-- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006 Back to main page.
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I'm ambivalent about this issue. "A Cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do" has worked out pretty well for a couple of centuries now*. OTOH, that's a code for college students, not middle-school students. I don't know enough to know how appropriate it is at that level. By your description, the punishments aren't all that draconian, so perhaps that's enough of a modification. Of course, this depends on lies being punished as harshly, and investigated as thoroughly, as other misconduct. * For more information about this code, see (for example) this page. -- DougSundseth - 16 May 2006
I hope the mom made it clear to Herr Fried that she was imparting information, not calling him names? The distinction is important. -- VerghisKoshi - 16 May 2006
It took me awhile to work my way through this one. Ed and I did a whole whistleblowing number at another school, and that was hell. We knew it would be hell going in (though we didn't know just how bad "hell" can be) but we did it anyway. So....I do think one often has an ethical duty not to stand by and say nothing. Because I feel this way, I spent quite awhile being confused over the whole Telling thing. I'm still confused, but I'm definitely against this situation. What we have at IMS is more like Mao than the Marines. These kids all know each other very well; they are being required to tell on their friends. The school is about Obedience to Authority - blind obedience to authority, worse yet. The ethical conflicts between loyalty to friends & family and obedience to (legitimate) authority are way over the heads of middle schoolers. -- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006
Verghis - I did a double-take on that one! I wasn't there, but I gather the mom supported her case. -- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006
Doug - thanks for that link - that'll be interesting. I'm thinking, off the top of my head, that a "non-tolerance" code probably doesn't for many walks of life apart from the military.... How do professions approach this issue? Do doctors have an obligation "not to tolerate" violations of medical ethics? I'm wondering whether a non-tolerance code is proper within professional realms, but not personal realms. Or, rather, "non-tolerance" means something different & has different boundaries in the personal realm.... (Obviously, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Ethics-with-a-capital-E.) -- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006
I was being facetious - sorry I wasn't clear. -- VerghisKoshi - 16 May 2006
I was being facetious - sorry I wasn't clear good lord now i'm not being clear what I meant was, at first I thought you were being serious - and then I got it I had such a delayed reaction I just about fell out of my chair.... LOL! -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
I'm just not going to get over the image of some mom telling this guy: you are an idiot -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
I'm hoping she didn't take any guff about not being cordial, either -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
Well rewarding witnesses/informers andpunishing disciplining people for failure to provide evidence historically has lead to very bad outcomes (eg those child sexual abuse convictions where it turned out that the kids had said "yes" to questions about them being abused only after the social workers would keep questioning them as long as they'd been saying "no").
So I think you have other reasons for being unsure about it than just the "telling on your friends" bit.
-- TracyW - 17 May 2006
Tracy is that right? I have GOT to start my education in history - although I did follow the horrific abuses (of the adults) in the child abuse cases. Actually, that's a very good point. He's using child witnesses. (hmmm....I'm wondering whether child witnesses, absent peer pressure, would be more accurate than adults, being "hyper-specific" and all.) In any case, the whole thing offends me and strikes me as wrongheaded, not to mention being yet another example of wildly misplaced focus & energy. -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
Christopher says the next time he's called in, he's going to say he doesn't tell on friends. I told him to clear that with his dad. Ed instantly said that's what Christopher should do. So if he gets called in again he's going to make his stand and take the consequence. -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
A parent told me that the principal held an assembly in which he screamed at the kids, "You don't have any rights." This parent knew because his/her kid came home and said, "I don't think that's true, but even if it is true, he didn't have to say it that way." And we pay for this! And give raises! -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
I think in this Post-Columbine world, "telling on friends" has taken on new significance and schools are, in many cases, over-reacting in an effort to respond. Child witnesses are notoriously unreliable because they are so easily "convinced" of things that never happened. Middle schoolers are not as susceptible as younger kids to this kind of pressure, but not immune. Our school is now "zero tolerance" with all the expected results. Most terrifyingly is the expulsion of good kids for poor judgment and regrettable boyish pranks. -- LynnGuelzow - 17 May 2006
Maybe this is just because I'm not a parent yet, but I typically stick to the playground rule, 'Don't snitch unless snitched upon'. Obviously, this depends on the context/severity of the infraction; in the professional ranks, there's a difference between taking an ream of paper for your home printer and defrauding your clients. What I want to know is whether the snitch rule applies to the faculty. Do they get suspensions without pay for not informing the principal that Ms. X smoked a cigarette while using the school copier to print fliers for her yard sale? -- IndependentGeorge - 17 May 2006
I think a better response from Christopher would be, "I didn't witness anything that I can report." -- GoogleMaster - 17 May 2006
I'm pretty sure that both lawyers and doctors are required to report breaches of ethical responsibilities by their peers. (Someone who is one of those could obviously address this better.) Whatever the appropriate policy for a school is though, I'm pretty sure it's not one that is based on omertà. -- DougSundseth - 17 May 2006
I like GoogleMaster?'s phrase better. Having him say, "I don't tell on my friends," could backfire. It implies that he does know, but won't tell, which will get him into more trouble. Plus, it might imply to Christopher that he should tell on people who aren't his friends, which it completely unjust. If the situation warrants the attention of the school authority, the authority should be notified whether the child is his friend or not. I personally don't think it is wrong to expect kids to tell on each other when we are talking about serious issues like selling mock drugs, vandalism, bullying, cheating, etc. Now if it's just, "Jason said a bad word!" or "Sarah took an extra snack!" it's just plain tattling. I see "telling" as kids standing up for what is right with adult backup. Sure, one kid can tell another, "Don't do that," or "That's not right", but it's not going to make a major impact unless there are consequences. If a kid tells on a friend (rather than an enemy), it says to me that the kid has the character to stand up for what is right & make sure his friend is corrected/helped even when it's hard or will cause friction in their relationship. -- AndyJoy - 17 May 2006
Quick Thought The honor code type of where witnesses are required to report wrongdoing works in a system that has the student body represented in the punishment, through prefects and the like. Investigations into the students are carried out by the students themselves and therefore the relationship between those punishing and those punished is at the peer level. This means that the 'telling' is needed to maintain the collective honor since justice is in the hands of the students. If the punishment is from an outside authroity then a protective us vs. them mentality would naturally form. Hence kids would protect their own or use it as a weapon to punish enemies. -- SeanPrice - 17 May 2006
hey! I just saw all these great Comments! BUT FIRST, before I get to read, I have to go pick up the bedroom. -- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jun 2006
Lynn Our school is now "zero tolerance" with all the expected results. Most terrifyingly is the expulsion of good kids for poor judgment and regrettable boyish pranks. That has to be fought. -- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jun 2006
Andy We told him that anything serious should be reported. So far we just put dangerous things in the serious category. We said if anyone had a weapon at school, he definitely needed to tell. We didn't bring up drugs & bullying....I guess because we didn't think of it. I'm not sure how I feel about telling on kids for having drugs. I think I might prefer he tell us first....let's see. I guess I'm feeling I'd rather the info come from us. Don't know if that's right; this is off the top of my head. -- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jun 2006
news from nowhere part 8
So I've spent some time this year wondering where all the Fearsome Irvington Parents you hear so much about have been hanging out. I still don't have the answer to that, but yesterday a friend told me a great scary mom story. back story: The middle school principal stresses the importance of telling. That's "telling" as in "telling on other kids." At IMS, telling is a core value. Kids are called out of class to go to the principal's office to participate in "investigations" of incidents; once there, they're supposed to tell what they know. You're not just supposed to testify on the stand, either. You have a duty to come forward if you see a violation of the code, and you get in trouble if you don't. Big trouble. A couple of weeks ago a 6th grader tried to sell a bag of oregano to another kid in the bathroom. The two boys who were already there left when they saw what was going on, but didn't tell the principal. Then somebody went and told the principal on the two boys who didn't tell the principal, and they got a two-week in-school suspension. This is a tiny little class, by the way, one hundred fifty kids or so. They've all been in school together since they were 3, so any telling they do is telling on a friend or neighbor or, in all likelihood, a friend and neighbor. Maybe that's what the administration means by "community involvement," one of the pillars of the new strategic plan. Not telling is
whoa When my friend quoted the Idiot line, I said, "She said that? She really said, 'You're an idiot'?" My friend said, "That's what she said. Nobody gets in this woman's way." wow I want to meet this mom. Although I have to say I'm scared. I have never, in my entire life, called a principal (or anyone else) an idiot. About the boldest I get is harping on the math chair for using teacher passive voice. So .... I'm scared. But it's a good scared.
* Bear in mind that all of this comes from Christopher and his chums. Possibly every factoid in this narrative is skewed and/or flat wrong, but the jist is correcct. I'm pretty sure.
-- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006 Back to main page.
Comments
After entering a comment, users can login anonymously as KtmGuest (password: guest) when prompted.Please consider registering as a regular user.
Look here for syntax help.
I'm ambivalent about this issue. "A Cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do" has worked out pretty well for a couple of centuries now*. OTOH, that's a code for college students, not middle-school students. I don't know enough to know how appropriate it is at that level. By your description, the punishments aren't all that draconian, so perhaps that's enough of a modification. Of course, this depends on lies being punished as harshly, and investigated as thoroughly, as other misconduct. * For more information about this code, see (for example) this page. -- DougSundseth - 16 May 2006
I hope the mom made it clear to Herr Fried that she was imparting information, not calling him names? The distinction is important. -- VerghisKoshi - 16 May 2006
It took me awhile to work my way through this one. Ed and I did a whole whistleblowing number at another school, and that was hell. We knew it would be hell going in (though we didn't know just how bad "hell" can be) but we did it anyway. So....I do think one often has an ethical duty not to stand by and say nothing. Because I feel this way, I spent quite awhile being confused over the whole Telling thing. I'm still confused, but I'm definitely against this situation. What we have at IMS is more like Mao than the Marines. These kids all know each other very well; they are being required to tell on their friends. The school is about Obedience to Authority - blind obedience to authority, worse yet. The ethical conflicts between loyalty to friends & family and obedience to (legitimate) authority are way over the heads of middle schoolers. -- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006
Verghis - I did a double-take on that one! I wasn't there, but I gather the mom supported her case. -- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006
Doug - thanks for that link - that'll be interesting. I'm thinking, off the top of my head, that a "non-tolerance" code probably doesn't for many walks of life apart from the military.... How do professions approach this issue? Do doctors have an obligation "not to tolerate" violations of medical ethics? I'm wondering whether a non-tolerance code is proper within professional realms, but not personal realms. Or, rather, "non-tolerance" means something different & has different boundaries in the personal realm.... (Obviously, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Ethics-with-a-capital-E.) -- CatherineJohnson - 16 May 2006
I was being facetious - sorry I wasn't clear. -- VerghisKoshi - 16 May 2006
I was being facetious - sorry I wasn't clear good lord now i'm not being clear what I meant was, at first I thought you were being serious - and then I got it I had such a delayed reaction I just about fell out of my chair.... LOL! -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
I'm just not going to get over the image of some mom telling this guy: you are an idiot -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
I'm hoping she didn't take any guff about not being cordial, either -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
Well rewarding witnesses/informers and
Tracy is that right? I have GOT to start my education in history - although I did follow the horrific abuses (of the adults) in the child abuse cases. Actually, that's a very good point. He's using child witnesses. (hmmm....I'm wondering whether child witnesses, absent peer pressure, would be more accurate than adults, being "hyper-specific" and all.) In any case, the whole thing offends me and strikes me as wrongheaded, not to mention being yet another example of wildly misplaced focus & energy. -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
Christopher says the next time he's called in, he's going to say he doesn't tell on friends. I told him to clear that with his dad. Ed instantly said that's what Christopher should do. So if he gets called in again he's going to make his stand and take the consequence. -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
A parent told me that the principal held an assembly in which he screamed at the kids, "You don't have any rights." This parent knew because his/her kid came home and said, "I don't think that's true, but even if it is true, he didn't have to say it that way." And we pay for this! And give raises! -- CatherineJohnson - 17 May 2006
I think in this Post-Columbine world, "telling on friends" has taken on new significance and schools are, in many cases, over-reacting in an effort to respond. Child witnesses are notoriously unreliable because they are so easily "convinced" of things that never happened. Middle schoolers are not as susceptible as younger kids to this kind of pressure, but not immune. Our school is now "zero tolerance" with all the expected results. Most terrifyingly is the expulsion of good kids for poor judgment and regrettable boyish pranks. -- LynnGuelzow - 17 May 2006
Maybe this is just because I'm not a parent yet, but I typically stick to the playground rule, 'Don't snitch unless snitched upon'. Obviously, this depends on the context/severity of the infraction; in the professional ranks, there's a difference between taking an ream of paper for your home printer and defrauding your clients. What I want to know is whether the snitch rule applies to the faculty. Do they get suspensions without pay for not informing the principal that Ms. X smoked a cigarette while using the school copier to print fliers for her yard sale? -- IndependentGeorge - 17 May 2006
I think a better response from Christopher would be, "I didn't witness anything that I can report." -- GoogleMaster - 17 May 2006
I'm pretty sure that both lawyers and doctors are required to report breaches of ethical responsibilities by their peers. (Someone who is one of those could obviously address this better.) Whatever the appropriate policy for a school is though, I'm pretty sure it's not one that is based on omertà. -- DougSundseth - 17 May 2006
I like GoogleMaster?'s phrase better. Having him say, "I don't tell on my friends," could backfire. It implies that he does know, but won't tell, which will get him into more trouble. Plus, it might imply to Christopher that he should tell on people who aren't his friends, which it completely unjust. If the situation warrants the attention of the school authority, the authority should be notified whether the child is his friend or not. I personally don't think it is wrong to expect kids to tell on each other when we are talking about serious issues like selling mock drugs, vandalism, bullying, cheating, etc. Now if it's just, "Jason said a bad word!" or "Sarah took an extra snack!" it's just plain tattling. I see "telling" as kids standing up for what is right with adult backup. Sure, one kid can tell another, "Don't do that," or "That's not right", but it's not going to make a major impact unless there are consequences. If a kid tells on a friend (rather than an enemy), it says to me that the kid has the character to stand up for what is right & make sure his friend is corrected/helped even when it's hard or will cause friction in their relationship. -- AndyJoy - 17 May 2006
Quick Thought The honor code type of where witnesses are required to report wrongdoing works in a system that has the student body represented in the punishment, through prefects and the like. Investigations into the students are carried out by the students themselves and therefore the relationship between those punishing and those punished is at the peer level. This means that the 'telling' is needed to maintain the collective honor since justice is in the hands of the students. If the punishment is from an outside authroity then a protective us vs. them mentality would naturally form. Hence kids would protect their own or use it as a weapon to punish enemies. -- SeanPrice - 17 May 2006
hey! I just saw all these great Comments! BUT FIRST, before I get to read, I have to go pick up the bedroom. -- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jun 2006
Lynn Our school is now "zero tolerance" with all the expected results. Most terrifyingly is the expulsion of good kids for poor judgment and regrettable boyish pranks. That has to be fought. -- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jun 2006
Andy We told him that anything serious should be reported. So far we just put dangerous things in the serious category. We said if anyone had a weapon at school, he definitely needed to tell. We didn't bring up drugs & bullying....I guess because we didn't think of it. I'm not sure how I feel about telling on kids for having drugs. I think I might prefer he tell us first....let's see. I guess I'm feeling I'd rather the info come from us. Don't know if that's right; this is off the top of my head. -- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jun 2006
| WebLogForm | |
|---|---|
| Title: | news from nowhere part 8 |
| TopicType: | WebLog |
| SubjectArea: | IrvingtonSchools |
| LogDate: | 200605161724 |