OnNotTeachingToMastery < Kitchen

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"Didn't Steve H say this?"

I can't take the credit.

However, remember when we talked about diagnosing math weaknesses? I have seen cases where once a few misconceptions have been cleared up, the student really takes off. It's quite amazing. But, then again, there are some who just need to go back to the basics and grind it out. 

My son's fifth grade EM math teacher started an after school "club" to help kids struggling with their "grades". (I hope she doesn't see the problem as grades rather than understanding and skills.) They will work on problems and do some peer tutoring. She wanted my son to be one of the tutors, but fortunately, he has piano lessons that afternoon. And my son is the one who, last weekend, had to stop and think about the answer to 7 times 8. Peer tutoring. Kill two birds with one stone. Right.

I felt like telling her to drop the (cough-losers-cough) "club" and do one-on-one tutoring.


-- Main.SteveH - 25 Oct 2006


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"Table 1.2 shows the remarkable results regarding intellectual traits and memory."

This shoots Everday Math completely out of the water. If you don't hit a high mastery mark on the initial teaching, then it will be almost impossible to achieve mastery. I don't know if I agree with this completely, but I like how it shows the up and down path to long term mastery. 

My son is in one of those valleys regarding some of his basic facts. Of course, this is a great justification for doing lots of long division by hand. When I was growing up, I don't remember using flash cards after third grade. But we did have lots of multiplication and division. 


-- Main.SteveH - 25 Oct 2006


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A friend of mine has a daughter that really struggled through 3rd grade math.  She was really devasted (she had done Abeka math in private school for grades 1-2) and lost all her confidence.  

This summer her grandmother set her up with a tutor.  This tutor is a retired math teacher.  The tutor worked with this child on memorizing her multiplication facts through flashcards and games.

Now, this child is getting A's on all her math this year (4th grade).  It was a simple as getting her through this ONE concept.  Mastering it.  Now she has regained her confidence and loves math.  

I wonder how far she would have fallen in math before someone identified this weakness, if it weren't for her grandmother persisting that she memorize her facts -- no matter what the school said.

-- Main.NicksMama - 25 Oct 2006


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"What is happening here — and, again, until someone proves me wrong I'm going to stand by my opinion, is that constructivist teaching practices are being used to mask the fact that the fast kids are being slowed down to the slow kids' pace."

My take is that the driving forces in the lower grades are full-inclusion and child-centered mixed ability groupings, with the teacher as guide-on-the-side. Constructivism is their theoretical cover for doing this. Higher order thinking! Conceptual understanding! They would drop constructivism in an instant if it meant no child-centered group learning.

To allow for very wide ability levels, the pace has to be slowed and the expectations reduced. Spiraling the curriculum allows them to eliminate hard year-to-year expectations that would separate kids by ability. Mastery is considered "rote" learning and the spiraling curriculum gives them cover. Mastery also requires hard work and that also separates kids by ability.

When parents complain about the slow pace, they introduce "Differentiated Instruction". This means that the more willing or able kids get their own projects or tasks to work on. This is usually for homework or for short periods during the day. It consists of variations on the same material rather than accelerating on to new material.

They don't teach to the middle. They teach to the low end. At a minimum, the expectations are set to the low end. They expect these natural learning darlings will rise to their potential rather then just meet (low) expectations. But they can't tell the difference between the child who is having real difficulties and the one who just needs a swift kick in the rear. In any case, they will not change the low cut-off expectations. 

Our schools use rubrics (of course) that go from 1 - 4. It's very easy to get 3's (meeting expectations). Remember that the expectations are set very low. All of the kids find out that to get a 4 requires a huge jump in work. Most don't bother. And some complain that this work is mostly busy work; quantity over quality and skill level. The school has difficulty dealing with kids that won't do more on their own. But the schools will not raise the level of expectations.

Schools might take different paths in 7th and 8th grades, but this is what I see in the lower grades.


-- Main.SteveH - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>I felt like telling her to drop the (cough-losers-cough) "club" and do one-on-one tutoring.</I>

yeah

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>This shoots Everday Math completely out of the water. If you don't hit a high mastery mark on the initial teaching, then it will be almost impossible to achieve mastery. I don't know if I agree with this completely, but I like how it shows the up and down path to long term mastery.</I>

I don't think this stuff is controversial in any way.

One of the best lines in their chapter is the one about how a person with below 60% mastery can't be said to have learned at all.

You MUST achieve a certain level of mastery to be able to "pick up where you left off."

Otherwise you start all over again at square one.

I've seen it too many times myself - and experienced it too many times - not to know this from common sense as well as from decades of research on memory and forgetting.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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Everyday Math isn't based on actual research with actual people.

They've just followed an abstract principle of "distributed practice," without spending a second figuring out how distributed practice actually works.

Distributed practice <I>without</I> attaining 80% mastery to start is worthless.

btw, all autism programs are based on this principle

it's extremely well-known



-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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My best example from my own life, which I mentioned on another thread, is the tennis scoring system, which I have never managed to learn.

I've never managed to learn it because I go to the U.S. Open once a year, at which time Ed explains the scoring system.

Then I don't watch tennis again for another year, when I again attend the U.S. Open and discover that I have forgotten <I>everything</I> I "learned" about the scoring system the year before.

Our schools are putting the bottom thirds in this position.

They may be putting a lot of the middles in this position, too.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>My son is in one of those valleys regarding some of his basic facts. Of course, this is a great justification for doing lots of long division by hand. When I was growing up, I don't remember using flash cards after third grade.</I>

For what it's worth, I'll remind you that several of us found flash cards not to work very well. 

I don't know why that should be.

Christopher really got hold of his math facts when we did paper-and-pencil Saxon Fast Facts sheets. (You can order those separately if you want to - or just join edhelper.com for $15 a year and print out facts worksheets.)

Christopher learned his facts to mastery VERY quickly  once we started paper and pencil worksheets.

I saw that with another child, too. This child actually has an IEP, I think.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>Now, this child is getting A's on all her math this year (4th grade). It was a simple as getting her through this ONE concept. Mastering it. Now she has regained her confidence and loves math.

I wonder how far she would have fallen in math before someone identified this weakness, if it weren't for her grandmother persisting that she memorize her facts -- no matter what the school said.</I>

Parents simply have to be on the lookout. Period. 

Parents & grandparents.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>My take is that the driving forces in the lower grades are full-inclusion and child-centered mixed ability groupings, with the teacher as guide-on-the-side.</I>

Absolutely.

Child-centered mixed ability grouping is <I>gospel</I>.

It is a religion.

In the bad sense of the word.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>To allow for very wide ability levels, the pace has to be slowed and the expectations reduced. Spiraling the curriculum allows them to eliminate hard year-to-year expectations that would separate kids by ability. Mastery is considered "rote" learning and the spiraling curriculum gives them cover. Mastery also requires hard work and that also separates kids by ability.

When parents complain about the slow pace, they introduce "Differentiated Instruction". This means that the more willing or able kids get their own projects or tasks to work on. This is usually for homework or for short periods during the day. It consists of variations on the same material rather than accelerating on to new material.</I>

perfect

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>When parents complain about the slow pace, they introduce "Differentiated Instruction".</I>

and enrichment

don't forget enrichment

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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I love it that here I sit in this wealthy community and I'm hearing the word "enrichment" all the time.

Meanwhile the IEF can only raise money for enrichment, not for activities the school "should be paying for itself" (something like that).



-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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7th and 8th, so far, are worse

that's what I'm seeing

more on that later &mdash;

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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Actually, this year, for us, is great.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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The rationing kicks in next year.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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Wow! Another one hit right out of the park! Excellent post.

-- Main.JdFisher - 25 Oct 2006


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thanks!

I LOVED getting the figures on what the exact difference in learning speed is.

I'd like to get the analogous figure for mathematically gifted kids.

I'm guessing they master material after 1 or 2 trials.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<small>_"The fast-thirds are going to be spending 2/3 of their class & homework time enriching themselves, while the middle-thirds spend 1/3 of class & homework time doing the same."_</small>


enrichment = wasting time 


Maybe not exactly wasting time, but the fast-thirds could get through 12 years of education in four years, and the middle-thirds could get through in eight... if they could cover the material at their optimum speed.


This explains the occasional "9th grader who got admitted to Harvard;"  a fast-third who was allowed and encouraged to achieve mastery at his own pace, and then allowed and encouraged to proceed with the next step, instead of waiting for everyone else.


And also why schools seem to need kids for more days-per-year, more hours-per-day, and more years (all-day kindergarten, anyone?):  Gotta pace everybody to the slow-thirds.


And they're _still_ not teaching to mastery.


-- Main.OldGrouch - 25 Oct 2006


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"time spent doing enrichment" = "time to forget the material you just learned"

-- Main.OldGrouch - 25 Oct 2006


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There is a resourcing problem for primary schools when it comes to providing maths acceleration. My primary school did it by all classes having maths at the same time and sending kids around classes to various levels.

It was a small school and there were about 1 1/2 teachers per year. This meant that there were limited maths teachers. So once you got into the standard four maths class the school had nothing further to offer. 

And, lets face it, resources for faster learners are always going to be under pressure from the claims from disabled kids and slower learners. 

-- Main.TracyW - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>Maybe not exactly wasting time, but the fast-thirds could get through 12 years of education in four years, and the middle-thirds could get through in eight... if they could cover the material at their optimum speed.</I>

wow

I hadn't even gone that far....

The whole thing is horrifying. A 1 to 3 ratio - unbelievable. 

There are various studies out there showing our kids making zero gains between, say, 7th & 8th grade math (that's a real one cited in <nop>McEwan).

The sole virtue of this approach is that the lower thirds actually get to learn content. 



-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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Catherine Johnson on the <nop>NoOneToWaste thread:

<small>"A group of parents fought 8 years for a foreign language program in the lower grades. 


The district fought back for 8 years on grounds that foreign languages would be too hard to schedule."</small>


Would scheduling still be a problem if they had 1/3-2/3 more time to work with? 

-- Main.OldGrouch - 25 Oct 2006


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Everything about this is just nuts

These guys are talking about grade school kids - so these kids are just going to sit there and enrich themselves 2/3 of the school year, year-in & year-out???

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>This explains the occasional "9th grader who got admitted to Harvard;" a fast-third who was allowed and encouraged to achieve mastery at his own pace, and then allowed and encouraged to proceed with the next step, instead of waiting for everyone else.</I>

sure does

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>And they're still not teaching to mastery.</I>

I KNOW!

I KNOW!

AAAUUUGGGHHHH !

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>"time spent doing enrichment" = "time to forget the material you just learned"</I>

snort

actually, that raises a point: I'm not sure they do say much about when the fast-thirds are supposed to get their distributed practice in....(they may; not sure)

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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<I>And, lets face it, resources for faster learners are always going to be under pressure from the claims from disabled kids and slower learners.</I>

That's true, but on the other hand we're talking about one-third of the kids here.

This book doesn't address the needs of the 1 or 2% of kids who are gifted.

Actually, we're not talking about 1/3 of the class; we're talking about 2/3.

These psychologists are recommending radically slowing down fully 2/3 of the class, on grounds that they can spend all that time cruising Bloom's.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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PLUS WHICH.....how much synthesis & analysis & etc. are top-third 8 year olds going to be doing during the 2/3 of the year they spend enriching themselves???

Precious little.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 25 Oct 2006


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Unless they're demon readers.  Then they can spend the time reading their way through the World Book and accumulating information.

-- Main.OldGrouch - 25 Oct 2006


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Doodlers and demon readers.  I love it.  You can't imagine the artwork I find in all the margins of my kids schoolwork.

Any relationship to the top 1/3 of kids developing ADD?  If there's nothing to pay attention to, bad habits develop, which are eventually labeled something, right?  I wonder if anyone has looked at ADD from this angle.



-- Main.LynnGuelzow - 26 Oct 2006


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"Gotta pace everybody to the slow-thirds. And they're still not teaching to mastery."

Exactly. This is not just a philosophical trade-off decision on their part. They are not just spreading resources differently. They are doing less work and accepting less responsibility for learning.


After coming home from our 4th/5th grade First Lego League Robotics after-school teams, I want to comment on another problem. (before I shoot myself) I know these are 10 and 11 year-olds, but they have very little self-control and very short attention spans. Perhaps it's the years of not having to pay attention to a teacher in front of the room for more than 5 minutes at a time. They are used to noisy child-centered groups and only occasionally hearing the teacher shout instructions above the noise. From all I have heard from my son and other parents, many teachers have little knowledge of how to control a class without yelling at, lecturing (see, they do know how to do this), and threatening them. Maybe they should have the kids get in a group and discover their bad behavior. At this age, kids struggle with focus and staying on task. Child-centered groups do not help this one bit. This is just another thing we have to do it at home.


-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


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I'm tired of the implication that the Everyday Math spiral is for the slow learners.  Here is what Professsor James Milgram, math professor at Stanford, says about EM: "For very bright kids and extremely well prepared teachers, it would be a very good thing ... But for the vast majority of teachers and kids it's a total disaster."  

In our district, it's the parents of the top third who like EM.  They see their kids scoring advanced proficient on state standardized tests. The director of our gifted program also likes EM.  I have a friend whose son is a "mathbrain" and she likes EM too.  She says that by jumping around from topic to topic, it keeps him interested.  

It's the parents of children who struggle who are complaining about EM.  Quick learners don't need a lot of practice before mastering material.  They can keep up with the spiral.  It's the bottom third of the class that gets lost because they don't spend enough time on any given subject.  The parents of those kids are spending a fortune on tutoring, and no one seems to care. 

Teaching to mastery in math makes sense. I agree that that's what schools ought to be doing.  That's what Kumon does and I think it works.  

I think kids should be separated according to ability, but only for math.  There are drawbacks to tracking, and it's probably not necessary for reading and writing. In those subjects, it's easier for kids to work at their own levels.  But in math, it doesn't make sense for every child to move through the curriculum at the same speed. 


-- Main.RobynW - 26 Oct 2006


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Is there any benefit at all to child centered, mixed ability groupings in any subject?

Setting aside your other points, Robyn, should I  interpret your point about mixed ability groupings in reading, social studies, or science to be that it doesn't do any harm?

By 5th grade, kids are beginning to really separate themselves by their ability to abstract and analyze, rather than digest. It is not easily tested. Kids that can engage in discussions of ethics and causality are held back by those still very much in the concrete stage, or worse, they can't yet read and understand the material. Ability groupings are generally positive in all subject areas, I believe.

But you may be confusing separating by ability with older forms of tracking, which was no better than segregation. 

-- Main.LynnGuelzow - 26 Oct 2006


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_In our district, it's the parents of the top third who like EM._

Interesting. Not true here. Parents of the top kids quietly teach at home or hire tutors. We know we face ridicule if we complain that our kid, who is getting top scores on a poorly designed, low level state exam, is not well served by EM. The problems with the state tests are just to complicated for most people's patience. If your child isn't given a norm-referenced exam, you won't discover the gaps until its too late.

-- Main.LynnGuelzow - 26 Oct 2006


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My cousin thought EM was for the kids who were good at math. That was the way she and her friends saw it.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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Here's my cousin's story: [[http://www.kitchentablemath.net/twiki/bin/view/Kitchen/FirstPerson][first person]]

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>resources for faster learners are always going to be under pressure from the claims from disabled kids and slower learners</I>

I just realized why this shouldn't matter, in theory: the fast learners really, truly don't need as many resources

The really fast kids "breathe it in" (that's my neighbor's description of what it's like to teach a math brain); the top third are fairly easy to teach.

Ed's complaint about all schools (not ours in particular; he's said this for years) is that schools and some teachers prefer the kids who don't need teaching.

That is absolutely the case in the Phase 4 math class; it may be the governing though unstated principle of all of the Irvington school district as a whole - and it's an assumption made by most Americans I <I>think</I>: a smart person doesn't need teaching. They "pick it up" etc.

To some extent <I>this is true</I>. I have developmentally disabled kids & I have one smart kid & teaching the smart kid takes WAY less resources than teaching the smart kid.

Remember when <B>Susan</B> said she told her district they needed to let her gifted child soar (I don't remember her exact words)?

As far as I can tell, the fastest kids really do need significantly fewer resources to learn very well.

Since they're already (probably) consuming fewer resources than everyone else, why put weights on their feet?

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>Unless they're demon readers. Then they can spend the time reading their way through the World Book and accumulating information.</I>

Actually, that might even be worthwhile.

If you're going to make the fast-thirds enrich themselves for 2/3 of the school year, you should have a high-quality, stepped reading program in place for all of them.

Those kids would be scoring 800 on the SATs by the time they hit junior high.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>If there's nothing to pay attention to, bad habits develop, which are eventually labeled something, right? I wonder if anyone has looked at ADD from this angle.</I>

There certainly does seem to be a class of smart kids who <I>just can't take it</I>.

My sister's 8th grader is classified gifted. The GATE program they have in their town was a mess, so she went back to her regular school this fall.

Now she's leaving that and will be on Independent Studies for the rest of the year. 

CA has Independent Studies.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>I want to comment on another problem (before I shoot myself)</I>

Steve?

<br />
<br />
<br />
Steve?
<br />
<br />
Anyone heard from Steve?
<br />

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>From all I have heard from my son and other parents, many teachers have little knowledge of how to control a class without yelling at, lecturing (see, they do know how to do this), and threatening them.</I>

I take my hat off to teachers who can control a room.

From what I gather, you can't learn that in ed school.

I did a lousy job with my Singapore Math class.

(btw, I lecture Christopher on this at home. He's a talk-to-my-neighbor type kid, although he's not noisy & his attention span seems good to me. So he's not in the top-third disrupter category, but still...) 

I have what looks like a terrific book on the subject: [[http://www.amazon.com/Reluctant-Disciplinarian-Management-Eventually-Successful/dp/1877673366/sr=8-1/qid=1161865963/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9355940-2731126?ie=UTF8&s=books][Reluctant Disciplinarian: Advice on Classroom Management From a Softy who Became (Eventually) a Successful Teacher by Gary Rubinstein]]

<br />
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:_5FCFO7vFVxFNM:http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1877673366.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1132272051_.jpg<br />
<br />

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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"As part of the training process, future teachers are often sent to obseve dynamic teachers. They scribble notes furiously, as these phenomenons silence chatter by merely asking, "Are you respecting your classmates right now?"

After observing one teacher with excellent classroom control, I asked, "What do you do if they throw paper airplanes?" She answered, immediately, "I don't put up with that kind of nonsense!" In my notebook, I jotted, "Don't put up with that kind of nonsense!"

[snip]

New or future teachers leave a mentor's room delighted with their new collection of foolproof ideas, which they have just witnessed working flawlessly. To assume that these ideas will automatically work for less experienced teachers is like assuming that any golfer can clear the water hole with a five-iron from 200 yards, just because he has seen Tiger Woods do it on television."

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>In our district, it's the parents of the top third who like EM. They see their kids scoring advanced proficient on state standardized tests. The director of our gifted program also likes EM. I have a friend whose son is a "mathbrain" and she likes EM too. She says that by jumping around from topic to topic, it keeps him interested.</I>

That's very interesting.

I can believe it - as I mentioned, that's what my cousin thought of it.

This may also explain Ardsley's high math scores with TERC.

I have data I've never gotten around to posting showing that Scarsdale's scores went down with TRAILBLAZERS....and TRAILBLAZERS doesn't seem to do the kind of rapid hopping from one subject to the next that Everyday Math does.

At least, that's not my impression, and that's not what I'm hearing from parents in K-5.

Those parents are complaining about the slowness & repetitiveness of TRAILBLAZERS.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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I want to comment on another problem (before I shoot myself) 

"Steve?"


I missed.

The robotics team will be fine. It's just not the most productive use of everyone's time. Feel good learning.


-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


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<B>Robyn</B>

I don't know what to think about tracking in other subjects, except to say that I would take Siegfried Engelmann's word for it.

After reading THE SCHOOLS WE NEED and THE KNOWLEDGE DEFICIT back to back I'm acutely conscious of the need for young kids to acquire information in all the major subject matter areas - and "acquring information" means absorbing it into memory.

Since we know kids have different rates of doing that, I'm inclined to think the most efficient path to learning the most content is "flexible achievement grouping" across the board.

For me, Hirsch's discussion of reading was paradigm-shifting. Like everyone else, I've always thought of reading as a "formal skill" that can be applied to any subject matter.

It turns out that reading - and writing - depends on background knowledge; a superb reader knows a huge amount of <I>stuff</I>.

If your goal in every class is to move material from the blackboard (excuse me, whiteboard), textbook, and teacher's brain inside the student's brain then probably flexible achievement grouping is the best way to go.

The one aspect of Gentile's & Lalley's argument I absolutely agree with is that everyone has to be taught to mastery because of the savings in relearning time.

If your slow-thirds are starting from square one every time they're re-exposed to content, that's wrong.

If you're trying to have children memorize the facts and analytical accounts of the American revolution, that's going to happen at different speeds for the 3 different groups.....

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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I suspect that grouping wouldn't be such a distressing and potentially destructive practice <I>if all classes were pegged to content</I>.

Suppose teachers, parents, and students <I>all</I> had a list of the material to be learned - learned meaning <I>remembered</I> - in each subject. 

An annotated scope and sequence - suppose we had this for every subject.

The school would be able to show you objectively <I>precisely</I> where your child is in the scope and sequence.

The grounds for grouping would be transparent.

I suspect that very few parents would insist that their child jump over the Civil War to join the fast-thirds studying the Vietnam War. 

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>Kids that can engage in discussions of ethics and causality are held back by those still very much in the concrete stage, or worse, they can't yet read and understand the material. </I>

Again, having read back-to-back Hirsch, I want to look closely at "analytical" discussions in classrooms.

Many of these conversations seem to be simply opinion-fests. 

I've been thinking about Ed's course on nationalism last year, where he set out to use formative assessment to teach students how to write a history paper.

The students started out with grades in the C to B- range.

By the end of the semester they were getting - and deserving - grades of B+ to A.

The t.a.'s were doing the grading, then Ed checked it. He said their grading was correct; the improvement was real.

We attributed this to his writing instruction, which I'm sure was part of it.

<I>But</I> I hadn't read Hirsch at the time.

Good writing, as it turns out, depends upon subject matter content knowledge.

A good sports writer isn't a good science writer and vice versa.

Ed is a good teacher, and by the end of the course those students knew quite a lot about nationalism, about the scholarship on nationalism, and about the debates on the subject of nationalism.

They were far better versed in their subject matter, and they wrote far better papers.

I'm positive that's a causal relationship.

I don't know how to put all this together....but once you know that there is no such thing as a critical thinking skill apart from subject matter knowledge, then what?

You wouldn't want to do <I>too</I> much "discussing" and "analyzing".....though on the other hand you do want to make sure the kids are linking what they're learning in class with what they already know....

Also, I feel positive in a Bayesian kind of way that you want to be encouraging kids to ask questions.

So: I don't know.

This is my conclusion.

I don't know.

The one thing I do know is that I would always, always focus on getting content inside students' heads - and by "inside students' heads" I mean inside their memories.

I want my own child to remember, from one year to the next, as much of what he learned the previous year as possible.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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"I'm tired of the implication that the Everyday Math spiral is for the slow learners."

I don't think I said that. I've always thought and said that it was bad for everyone. It has less impact on the fast learners because they (almost) master the material in the first loop of the spiral. (Most schools supplement EM.) Even my son, who is a straight-A EM student (that's not saying much), is still not fast enough with his basics. The problems get worse in 5th and 6th grades when they get to fractions, decimals, percents, and word problems - not enough practice, even for the math brains. Even Andy Isaacs, one of the authors of EM, says it's not for the elite.



"In our district, it's the parents of the top third who like EM. They see their kids scoring advanced proficient on state standardized tests."

They are fooling themselves into thinking that good EM grades and good scores on a state's trivial math test are meaningful. These are the parents who will be horrified when little A-student Suzie gets to high school and starts the honors or AP Calculus track. Maybe their middle school can bridge the gap between EM and the high school AP track, but it's not going to be easy.


"Parents of the top kids quietly teach at home or hire tutors."

"If your child isn't given a norm-referenced exam, you won't discover the gaps until its too late."

I agree 100 percent with Lynn.  Too late is usually the first year in high school when they get out of the fuzzy world of K-8 education.


"The parents of those kids are spending a fortune on tutoring, and no one seems to care."

We care a lot here. KTM is all about tutoring at home. We're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore! Well, it sounds good anyways - not that the schools care what we think.

I would love it if my son's school switched to Singapore (there's now a chance!), Saxon, or some Kumon-like approach. And this is for my son who masters (?) EM on the first loop. EM is structurally flawed. For the slower learners, the no-master spiral is a killer. For the fast learners, they are fooled into thinking that what they know is enough.



"I think kids should be separated according to ability, but only for math. There are drawbacks to tracking, ..."

We've talked about tracking here before. Tracking (by ability) is a dirty word for many teachers and schools, but it all depends on how you do it. (Some, like at our school, just don't like it any which way.) The big problem is that some forms of tracking in the early grades define which track you will go to in high school. Lower tracks often use a simpler curriculum rather than cover the same material, but just at a slower speed. For example, it's better for kids to go slowly, but still get to honors Algebra II or Trig in high school, rather than go slowly (with a poor curriculum) and end up in "check-book" math in high school. Some schools think that if kids need more time, they are dumber all around and can't handle a rigorous curriculum.

Some schools stick with one curriculum (hopefully a good one), but allow kids to go up (or down) a grade level on a subject-by-subject basis. There are problems with this model because a grade level jump is pretty big. Other schools wait until 7th or 8th grade to begin official tracking, usually just for math or languages. There are problems no matter which way you do it, but schools just can't ignore the problem or hope that some magic technique, like differentiated instruction, will save their ass(umptions).



-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


---

My experiences with EM have been incredibly frustrating and this website, which I have been reading for a while, has been very helpful to me.  After reading this site, for example, I was persuaded to stick with Kumon, even though, at first, it seemed too slow and simple.  

Let me clarify my point about tracking.  When I went to school, during the 1970's, we were tracked by ability in elementary school.  We were separated early on into groups and stayed with the same group of kids until we reached junior high.  I was in the top group, and I did benefit, but I also see the drawbacks to this type of early separation. 

I think that at least for early elementary school, tracking can stunt kids' social skills.  I was always with the same group year after year.  My kids are with different kids each year, and I think they feel more comfortable being around kids they don't know and making new friends.  

My kids are still in elementary school. I have a child who does very well in school. But I'm glad that he is in class with boys who are not such great students.  Those boys have other strengths, and I think it helps my son's social and emotional development to be around them.  My other child struggles academically, and benefits from socializing with kids who are good students. 

Would my son be learning more if he were with kids on his level?  Yes.  But at least, for now, the kids have separate in-class groups for reading and word study, and that seems to work okay. (Is that flexible achievement grouping or differentiated instruction?  Probably the latter).  My big concern is really in math. 

It is in math that my struggling student really is harmed because she is not taught to mastery and can't keep up with the class.  I am constantly trying to figure out how and to what extent to supplement her education at home so that she learns basic skills.  (Again, this website has been a great help). 

I guess all I'm saying is that tracking has both costs and benefits.  Kids probably do learn more content when they are grouped with kids like themselves, and they all move at the same, suitable pace.  But there can be drawbacks to their social development. Maybe the answer is to mix the kids together in K through 3 (except for math) and then separate them as they get into the intermediate grades.   

Wouldn't "flexible ability grouping" have the same effect as tracking?  The strong students are usually strong in math and reading, and the struggling students often have problems in more than one subject.  




-- Main.RobynW - 26 Oct 2006


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SteveH, I agree that the parents of the better students have a false sense of security from the state standardized tests.  Your insights and the insights of others on this site have persuaded me to supplement my strong student, as well as my other child. Both kids are in Kumon and I work with my son on Singapore Math, although it's not always easy to fit in with all the other things we're doing.

But I think there are a lot of parents who look at standardized tests scores in math and assume their children are getting a fine education. I know that's our district's defense of EM. Scores are up.  The Fordham Foundation says our state standards are fuzzy, but our district doesn't want to look into it that deeply. 

-- Main.RobynW - 26 Oct 2006


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"But there can be drawbacks to their social "development."

Our public schools are really big on this sort of thing. They carry it to an extreme and don't allow any separation, for any subject, through 8th grade. This is made worse with the wide ability, full-inclusion model they use.

In the case of social development based on empathy or peer tutoring for lower ability kids, they're really pushing it. They use this as an excuse for not providing more for the more able kids. Quality curricula and high year-to-year expectations take second place behind social development and other fuzzy ideas of education. Considering what I have seen, I would rather a school stick with the academics. I can handle my son's social development, thank you very much.


-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


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You make excellent points, Robyn. But flexible ability grouping (I've also seen it referred to as "clustering") is not at all the same animal as tracking. Especially the rigid tracking of the 1960s and 70s. 

I think we've learned quite a bit about the way kids learn. Sometimes you find a strong student in math is also strong in other areas, but this is not true for many many students that have strengths and weaknesses all over the board. Personal anecdote, I have a math brain son with a particularly strong artistic side, but at writing he is well behind the curve. 

Thanks, Catherine for pointing out the Hirsch book again.  I've got to get my copy back from my sister so I can finish reading it. 

-- Main.LynnGuelzow - 26 Oct 2006


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"I work with my son on Singapore Math, although it's not always easy to fit in with all the other things we're doing."

Well, our 5th grade Singapore Math books haven't been opened yet this year. There is after-school sports/recreation, then come home to eat, then homework that can take forever (focus is a problem), then piano practice. There is something to be said about daily worksheets that take only 10 minutes to do. I get angry thinking that this would be so easy for them to do at school.


-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


---

There is something to be said about daily worksheets that take only 10 minutes to do. I get angry thinking that this would be so easy for them to do at school.

-- SteveH - 26 Oct 2006

This kind of stuff drives me NUTS. Although I am a homeschooler, I occasionally have fantasies of sending my children to ps just for a semester (so I can recover).  

During this time, I would do the following:

* Put a big, red "X" through any pieced of homework that I deem "busywork" OR that my child has not been taught OR my child has mastered. My child would be instructed to turn them in and have the teacher email/call me if he or she has a problem with it.

* I would not care about threats that my child will get a failing grade for not completing these homework assignments.  I know my child's capabilities and no grade from a teacher is going to affect that one way or another.

Then, after my *vacation* from homeschooling was over, I'd be more convicted than ever to continue to homeschool.  

On days like today (when my kids seem hellbent on annoying each other), I REALLY want to do it!






-- Main.NicksMama - 26 Oct 2006


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"But I think there are a lot of parents who look at standardized tests scores in math and assume their children are getting a fine education."

I just tell parents to look at the tests and find out how many correct answers they have to get to meet the minimum proficiency cut-off. Our town is ranked "High Performing" with a Performance Index of something like 98. Sounds good, doesn't it? What this means ONLY is that a high percentage of kids get over a very minimum cut-off of expectations. It says absolutely nothing about anything else. Of course, this doesn't stop our schools from trumpeting our rating AS IF it means much, much more. they know darn well what they are doing.

Parents don't look too deeply. If they do (and are able), they send their kids elsewhere and wash their hands of the problem. (Unfortunately, elsewhere can also mean Everyday Math.) I went to an open house a few years ago on our state testing. I was the only parent who wanted to see the actual math and English tests. I was horrified at what I saw. 

I remember one 4th grade math question. They showed a simple bar graph (they do love these kinds of problems) showing the results of a student election. The graph had four bars that showed how many voted for each child. Each of the bars was less than 20 votes. The first question was: "Who won the election?" The second question was: "How many students voted?" Time allowed for the problem? Fifteen or twenty minutes, I forgot which it was. The proficiency cut-off allowed students to get about half the problems wrong.


"I know that's our district's defense of EM. Scores are up. The Fordham Foundation says our state standards are fuzzy, but our district doesn't want to look into it that deeply."

Our schools do the same thing. This past year, they did an "analysis" of our math students when they got to high school (There have always been math complaints from parents when their kids get to high school.) and found that "our" kids "hold their own" compared to other towns. They blamed the problem kids were having in high school to the problem of not being placed in the proper level of math - NOT because they weren't prepared properly. Because some kids do well (they are math brains, or, more likely, got tutoring outside of school), they think that everything is OK.

It's all really quite amazing!


-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


---

"Put a big, red "X" through any pieced of homework that I deem "busywork" OR that my child has not been taught OR my child has mastered. My child would be instructed to turn them in and have the teacher email/call me if he or she has a problem with it."

I was surprised, a few years back, when I first heard a parent say that he and his wife did all of the dumb projects and busywork for their sons. I should do this, but I can't bring myself to do it. I would do his EM homework and he can do the Singapore Math workbook. This might be a problem, however, when he has an EM test that asks him to "Find the One", as they call it.


-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


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Wow, skip a day on one topic and you miss a lot of comments!

Just popping in to comment on a couple of things.

_The fastest third has got two-digit addition after a median of 5 trials, so now they spend the next 10 trials investigating, solving real-world problems, and tutoring their slower peers._

It's worse than that.  If you're truly teaching *everyone* to mastery, then you've got to teach to mastery that one student that took 33 trials, so the one student who "got it" after 3 trials has to sit there while the teacher goes over it *30 more times*.  In the worst case it's 11:1, not 5:1.

You're dredging up memories here.  I'm now remembering how at times in elementary school math I was days ahead on my homework because I'd do it in class for lack of anything else to do.

We were already grouped: we had the orange, green, yellow, red, and blue groups.  I think I remember that some kids did move among the groups, so they weren't tracked permanently, and that some kids were in e.g. orange for math but green for language arts.  This was in the 1970s.  Sounds like it's worse now.

_the fast learners really, truly don't need as many resources_

I don't think this is either true or fair to those students.  True, the fast learners don't need as many resources *in order to learn the "standard" K-12 course material in the "standard" amount of time*, but if you're going to teach them to mastery the material they're capable of learning in that same standard amount of time, then they need more resources, not fewer.

More resources because, since they learn the material faster, they will be coming back for more instruction more often than the middle-of-the-pack students.

As an example, the teacher teaches the three thirds of the class their three lessons and gives them 33 practice problems each to work out.
   * The slowest 1/3 struggle on the first 12-33 problems, then gradually get faster on the remaining 0-21.
   * The middle 1/3 struggle a little less on the first 8-18 problems, and do the remaining 15-25 problems with more confidence and speed.
   * The fastest 1/3 work through the first 3-7 problems, a light bulb goes on, and they whiz through the remaining 26-30 problems. 
Now the fastest students are ready for more instruction, while the middle students are about 2/3 done and the slowest students are still trying to figure out how to solve problem #12.

-- Main.GoogleMaster - 26 Oct 2006


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I haven't read everyone's comments yet, so if I'm parroting someone else, forgive me.

<i>Real-world teachers and schools do not "teach to mastery" for exactly the reason they give: teaching to mastery in a mixed-ability classroom, and the mixed-ability classroom is a given, would slow the entire class down to the pace of the slowest third of students.</i>

<i>No wonder parents (and teachers) want smaller class size.</i>

All of this begs the question:  why do parents and teachers want smaller *mixed-ability* classes? It's obvious to me that mixed-ability grouping is the problem. A smaller mixed-ability class will mitigate, not solve, the problem. But no one wants to do "tracking" because then we'd have to admit that some kids learn faster than others, and that would bruise someone's (usually parental) ego. And you know, it's soooo much easier to deny reality when it's staring you in the face and just go on trying to build a utopia.

Here's a crazy thought:  what if we did away with grade levels, for the most part, and had content-based classes? IOW, instead of taking 5th-grade math, you take "Fractions, Decimals, and Percents" class. Whenever you finish that class, you move onto the next group of concepts, in a new class. It may take the average student x number of weeks to get through the material, a fast learner x/3 weeks to get through it, and a slow learner x+10 weeks.

-- Main.BrendaM - 26 Oct 2006


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_the fast learners really, truly don't need as many resources_

_I don't think this is either true or fair to those students. True, the fast learners don't need as many resources in order to learn the "standard" K-12 course material in the "standard" amount of time, but if you're going to teach them to mastery the material they're capable of learning in that same standard amount of time, then they need more resources, not fewer._

I heard once that teaching a gifted math student at the same pace as the whole class is like feeding an elephant one blade of grass at a time.

Faster learners do not benefit from the make work, fill up the extra time enrichment that they are typically given. They are ready to move ahead and experience great frustration when they are held back. 

-- Main.LynnGuelzow - 26 Oct 2006


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I just reread (with more care) Catherine's original post on "learned helplessness."  I wonder if I am suffering from this having experienced helpless failure repeatedly at the hands of the board of ed. How many parents no longer try to save themselves and instead sink to the bottom and drown from learned helplessness?  Maybe I'm taking this too far.

OTOH, repeated failure makes it very hard to keep trying. 5 years into EM, I see no realistic hope of ridding it from our curriculum.

-- Main.LynnGuelzow - 26 Oct 2006


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"It's obvious to me that mixed-ability grouping is the problem. A smaller mixed-ability class will mitigate, not solve, the problem. But no one wants to do "tracking" because then we'd have to admit that some kids learn faster than others, and that would bruise someone's (usually parental) ego. And you know, it's soooo much easier to deny reality when it's staring you in the face and just go on trying to build a utopia.'

Ergo, differentiated instruction. That's the solution at our schools. It doesn't work because the spread of abilities is so great due to full-inclusion. They want it all and it can't work. They are struggling and they see the kids leaving to go to other schools. It's surprising to me that so many parents give up and go to other schools - 20 to 25 percent of the kids in our town. They wash their hands of the problems and remain quiet. Some (very few try it) who have written letters to the editor get trashed. Those who go off to private schools are called elitist. It's a very touchy subject. Constructivism is nothing compared to this.

There are lots of parents who love full-inclusion. The idea of kids of all abilities working together has a very strong pull. The lower ability kids get more challenge and the higher ability kids get empathy and a chance at peer tutoring. Some parents have told me that they like this idea - for a while, but they start to get very nervous by 5th or 6th grade.

I haven't figured out why this whole approach hasn't collapsed already. Part of the answer is that our town is known for its focus on LD kids. Families move to our town for this reason. The school committee wants to "tuition-in" these kids from other towns at a lower cost-per-student than our town budget requires. All-the-while, parents of more able kids are sending them to private schools - that only teach Everyday Math.

How do I get out of this rabbit hole?


-- Main.SteveH - 26 Oct 2006


---

Let me know when you figure it out.  

We have not done an exception job on the LD kids here, so we aren't getting emigration.  I guess we are no better and no worse than most neighboring towns. 

In 5th grade, teachers block off 1 1/2 hours each day for math, with a combination approach of state test prep, EM, and gap remediation. Some days it seems that EM is a small % of the math time, but usually it seems like a 60/40 split, EM v. supplementing. I wonder how they can draw any conclusions from this. How do you know what is working and what isn't when you mix so much?

I think the answer is, something is working so let's keep doing this until we stop.  We've only had 5 years of EM, so it's too soon to really see the effect in the HS. Kids who are freshmen this year started in EM in 5th grade (I have one of those, so I can keep track). It will be a couple more years before we can answer the ultimate question, are the kids from the EM/Supplement approach prepared for higher level math?

-- Main.LynnGuelzow - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>Maybe their middle school can bridge the gap between EM and the high school AP track, but it's not going to be easy.


"Parents of the top kids quietly teach at home or hire tutors."

"If your child isn't given a norm-referenced exam, you won't discover the gaps until its too late."

I agree 100 percent with Lynn. Too late is usually the first year in high school when they get out of the fuzzy world of K-8 education.</I>

That's where the middle school kids are going to be.....I'm pretty sure.

And these kids aren't constructivist kids.

They are the products of what now looks to me like a dreadfully bad middle school math curriculum, <I>which was not created by Ms. K</I>.

What we've had with Ms. K is brand-new-young-unmentored-teacher handed horrifically bad course to teach.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 26 Oct 2006


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<I>Here's a crazy thought: what if we did away with grade levels, for the most part, and had content-based classes?</I>

I'm slightly too tired to reason this through.....Wickelgren had a proposal like this, and Engelmann <I>seems</I> to say that when you start everyone at <I>exactly</I> the same level in the content, with the same degree of mastery of prior content, somehow slower learners move along at the same pace.....

can that possibly be right?

I don't see how

there are too many unknowns here - I can certainly see the social benefit in "diversity" of any kind, but how much diversity does the dimension of learning speed introduce?

I'm not sure

Christopher has very close friends in the fast-thirds & in the slow-thirds (don't know how many friends I'd put in the middle...) 

I'm not sure how different these kids are



-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 27 Oct 2006


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I always come back to parent choice, ultimately

I think we probably know that grouping is optimal for learning content; I think many of us probably agree/assume/know that diversity is good for social learning

these two goals are in conflict, and what we neither know nor agree upon is how to resolve the conflict

I would absolutely leave it up to parents as far as humanly possible

this can be done

for instance, down in the Village a school sent out notice to all the parents of typical parents telling them they wanted to put together a full inclusion class that would include severely disabled kids like Andrew or Jimmy

they asked parents whether they'd like their children to join the class

there are some documented benefits of such classes that are very cool, one being that a typical child in such a class experiences a rise in social status amongst the other typical kids in the school!

I love that

anyway, it worked great

parents who were interested put their kids in the class and were very happy with the experience

I have no i dea whether these learned less than kids who didn't join the class

they may have, but their parents are the morally & legally responsible authorities; it's their call

In special ed it's always said that the parent knows his child best; often it's said, by teachers as well as parents, that the parent knows what's best for his child

when trying to resolve this conflict, I want the school to attempt to give parents a grouping option and a mixed-ability option & let them choose

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 27 Oct 2006


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Another possibility is to split the school day a bit differently.

Hirsch recommends a national core curriculum that would take up 40% to 60% of the school day.

His core curriculum isn't just something he made up, btw; he convened a big panel of professors, authors, etc. & figured out the background knowledge a person needs to have "cultural literacy"

That's what his Core Knowledge curriculum is based on

so say a school devotes 40% to 60% of its day to very seriously getting that knowledge inside students' heads

you could do ability grouping for that part of the day, mixed-ability grouping for everything else

you'd make the groups as flexible as possible, so kids could move up, down, or sideways as needed

everyone would know exactly what the curriculum was and where a child was in the curriculum; there wouldn't be Top Secret decisions being taken and pushy parents elbowing their kids in

I know for a fact that after our experience of having Christopher in a class taught to the two gifted kids in the room I would <I>never</I> put him in such a situation again



-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 27 Oct 2006


---

my tennis mom friend from last year talked to Ms. Kahl and told her "If you had a math 3.5 I'd pull my kid. But you don't."

That's our dilemma.

An accelerated class of 16 or 17 kids taught to the top 2

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 27 Oct 2006


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Actually, I'm thinking about Engelmann again....

You could have a somewhat mixed-ability group with Engelmann because of the small amount of new content he introduces in each lesson - only 15% to 20%

The rest is review of material previously mastered to 80 or 90% (I've forgotten which)

The savings in relearning time for the slow-thirds is huge.

A "slow learner" is actually a "slow first-time learner."

That's what differentiates them.

With real teaching to mastery you're probably going to end up created a "modified mixed ability" group if I'm making sense....

You wouldn't necessarily have to have 3 separate groups....

I wonder what you see in his schools?

I can imagine an Engelmann school ending up with everyone moving at a speedy clip, and maybe only a couple of groups...

Then the truly gifted kids - the "breathes it in" kids - have to have their own thing.

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 27 Oct 2006


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<i> Engelmann seems to say that when you start everyone at exactly the same level in the content, with the same degree of mastery of prior content, somehow slower learners move along at the same pace.....</i>

That was an artifact of the priorities of project follow through.  The slowest kids were given the best teachers and extra time as needed.  The priority was not to super-accelerate the high achievers.  In any event few kids fell into this group anyway because of the high mobility rate in the low ses areas effectively precluded a continuing high peforming group since not enough kids were available to sustain a class.  They were sacrificed.

Engelmann has said that he estimates that higher performers culd be accelerated by 3x to 4x the rate of average students.

This seems about right to me with my sample size = 1 experiment.  I do two math lessons every day with my son in half the normal class period.  And, so far he's never gotten less than 90% correct on any mastery test.  At most it takes five minutes of actual teaching time.  The rest of the time I look over his shoulder as he works problems.

-- Main.KDeRosa - 27 Oct 2006


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"I think we probably know that grouping is optimal for learning content; I think many of us probably agree/assume/know that diversity is good for social learning ... these two goals are in conflict."

I agree with this.  That's the problem.  It's hard to design a school system that gets the right balance between these two goals.  Perhaps your suggestion that schools devote part of the day to mixed-ability grouping would work. 

I know schools are criticized for thinking too much about social/emotional development, and soft, fuzzy concepts like self-confidence, but I think that in early elementary school at least, socializing children is a pretty important educational function.  

For optimal learning of content, separating by ability works best, but if our school had a better curriculum, there would be a lot more academic learning, even with mixed-ability grouping.  If we had a straightforward math curriculum instead of this EM nonsense, we would have a much easier time of it.... and I would be sleeping right now instead of posting these comments.  

I never especially liked math as a child.  I'm amazed by how much time I spend thinking about it now. 



-- Main.RobynW - 27 Oct 2006


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I can't believe that people actually think that gifted children will learn to 'get along' with everyone by going to a class with 'average' kids.  

For me, the difference was s literally like putting a normal kid into a severely special ed class (i.e. and IQ of 60).  No one in there right mind would do it, or suggest that it would teach the normal kid to respect the lower kids.  Nope, they all know that it would drive the normal kid INSANE and make them hate their classmates.  

Which is exactly what happened to me.  My opinion of my classmates was that they were the equivilent intellectually to trained apes, and less cute.  They were a stupid waste of time, space and resources, and I just wished that they would go away.  I still haven't untrained myself out of this attitude.

-- Main.SamanthaRawson - 27 Oct 2006


---

As a student teacher, I suck at classroom management.  And I don't know how I'm going to learn it before I start to teach (Feb next year).  At least I'm going to substitute teach.  I'll want to kill myself for the first 6 months, but then (hopefully) I will have learnt and might actually manage to control a class.

-- Main.SamanthaRawson - 27 Oct 2006


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"It will be a couple more years before we can answer the ultimate question, are the kids from the EM/Supplement approach prepared for higher level math?"

There will be no definite answer and the schools can wiggle out of it, unless scores are dropping. Our public schools used MathLand for years. Parents complained when high school (and reality) hit their kids. Our schools did a study (I could not get the results - there was no written report) that showed that our kids "hold their own" with other towns. The problem is that enough students will do well in spite of the school or because of outside tutoring. The schools do NOT want to know this information. 

-- Main.SteveH - 27 Oct 2006


---

"For optimal learning of content, separating by ability works best, but if our school had a better curriculum, there would be a lot more academic learning, even with mixed-ability grouping. If we had a straightforward math curriculum instead of this EM nonsense, we would have a much easier time of it.... and I would be sleeping right now instead of posting these comments."

It's not just the curriculum, it's the speed of coverage and the yearly demand for mastery. When I was growing up the spread of abilities was not so great, the expectations were geared more to the middle third, and there were yearly pass/fail requirements. There was no separation by abilities until 7th grade. They expected us to behave, pay attention, and treat other kids nicely - social qualities that can be expected/learned no matter which way you are grouped.

Nowadays, they want it all and it can't work. I saw it when my son was in first grade in our public schools. The ability range was wide already. They have the added problem that they don't split up the kids by ability even through 8th grade. It doesn't even work until third grade. They try team teaching in the second and third grades, with one of the teachers specializing in LD students - all in one room. No wonder they like the idea of child-centered group learning. It can't work any other way. By fourth grade, even those parents who like the idea are saying "enough already!"

The primary goal of education should be academics, not social development. Our public schools have it the other way around. They would deny this, but they don't deny that year-to-year expectations are lower and they don't deny that differentiated instruction needs some work. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Full-inclusion and good academics are incompatible, even in the earliest grades. And full-inclusion is neither necessary or sufficient for proper social development.



-- Main.SteveH - 27 Oct 2006


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"these two goals are in conflict, and what we neither know nor agree upon is how to resolve the conflict"

Well, I know that the primary goal of education is academics, not social development. Also, proper social development does not require very wide mixed ability groupings. Empathy and peer tutoring only go so far.

My wife says that our son's form of peer tutoring would probably involve explaining the same thing again, but louder, when the other child didn't understand it the first time. What kind of empathy is that going to generate? They are asking my son to do something he isn't possibly prepared to do.

Schools use more able students as window dressing for their very fuzzy ideas of social development and education. Somehow, social development has grown way past the basics of behaving and treating each other nicely. Now, it's all about character development. As a parent, I don't like the idea that schools think they know how to do this for me. 

In one parent-teacher meeting I went to, some teachers were talking about using some role-playing techniques to teach our kids about racism. The presumption was that you couldn't leave this up to parents to do. The presumption was that since were are in a mostly white town, the kids had to have at least some racist tendencies that had to be squelched. (Of course, not for their own kids.)

Academics and social development are not equal jobs for a school, but they don't have to be mutually exclusive or even opposing forces. Then again, who gets to define the details? Not the parents.



-- Main.SteveH - 27 Oct 2006


---

"They expected us to behave, pay attention, and treat other kids nicely -"

Exactly!  As a parent, it is my responsibility to make sure my kids are doing that (at least at some minimally acceptable level).  And when they don't, they are accountable for their actions.   

"Treat other kids nicely" is big with us.  Unfortunately, a number of parents don't seem to expect this from their children, and that's where problems can develop. Both of my girls relate that sometimes the kids who are "sucking up" to the teachers in class are the ones who, the moment the teacher's back is turned, are the meanest to the other kids.  Some teachers catch on to this; others don't.

Both of my girls relate that it makes a positive difference when the teacher is fair, doesn't play favorites, and makes it clear (both through word and actions) that mean behavior won't be tolerated.

Megan's 6th grade teacher was a model teacher in many respects.  Meg summed her up this way:  "Every student thought he/she was Ms. X's favorite, because it was true.  We all were her 'favorite.'"  She genuinely liked and cared about every one of her students and it showed. At the same time, her expectations were high.  She challenged and motivated the students to do their best. 

What I think I'm trying to say is that this teacher modeled "character education."  She didn't just "talk the talk."  She walked the talk.  As a result, the kids did better. Period.     



                 

-- Main.KarenA - 27 Oct 2006


---

"What I think I'm trying to say is that this teacher modeled "character education." She didn't just "talk the talk." She walked the talk. As a result, the kids did better. Period."

That's really all I ask for in social development from a school. 

What we get are all kids in class being lectured (as I said before, they know how to do this) and punished for the actions of just a few. And, of course, peer tutoring and empathy training. 


-- Main.SteveH - 27 Oct 2006


---

you guys!

when you have a minute, go read [[http://www.kitchentablemath.net/twiki/bin/view/Kitchen/EngelmannOnMasteryAndAbilityGrouping][Engelmann on mastery & ability grouping]]!

I think I've got the 'resolution' &mdash; or, more accurately, I think I've finally grasped Engelmann's point about what the resolution is

-- Main.CatherineJohnson - 27 Oct 2006


---

When I talk about social development, I'm not talking about lectures in character education.  I'm talking, in part,  about the ability of young children to develop friendships with new and different groups of kids.  It's not something schools teach, it's something kids experience from being in class with children who have different strengths and weaknesses. 

We have a program for gifted students in our district.  It is very competitive and difficult to get into.  I have two friends whose sons were chosen to be screened for the program and they declined.  They did not want their sons separated from the regular kids and segregated into a class for the gifted.  They decided that their sons have the rest of their lives to spend among the high achievers.   

  Other parents make different choices and push hard to get their kids into the gifted program. I think schools should have programs for the gifted and I support ours.  Parents of gifted kids should have the option. 

People really do have different values and different opinions about this topic ... even parents of gifted children.  It is not easy for schools to find the right balance.   As for me, for all the faults of the present system, I would not go back to the tracking of the 1970's.  



-- Main.RobynW - 27 Oct 2006


---

Well, I didn't quite intend to put the graphic I just uploaded quite where it is, but there you go.

-- Main.DougSundseth - 27 Oct 2006


---

"People really do have different values and different opinions about this topic ... even parents of gifted children. It is not easy for schools to find the right balance. As for me, for all the faults of the present system, I would not go back to the tracking of the 1970's."

Parental choice and options. I'm all for that. That's why I'm all for full school choice. Some parents like un-schooling. I say "Go for it!" Keep in mind that many towns, like ours, have absolutely no choice, and it's never been an argument over what we have now versus what we had years ago.

However, tracking by ability has always happened (like in high school), but there is good tracking and bad tracking, unless you define tracking in just some narrow sense. I personally don't like TAG or GATE separation in K-8. There is no magic point where a student becomes "talented" or even "gifted". It is often used as a way to get something more than the lowest common denominator education. Rather than fix the system, TAG/GATE is used to justify a better education for the "special needs" of the better students. However, as a parent, given a choice between what we have now and a TAG/GATE program, I would take TAG/GATE in a moment.


The main point I am making is that many schools place a higher importance on social development than academics. They set up a structure where the two goals compete against each other. It does not have to be this way. Choice is one way to solve the problem, but you have to remember that many towns have absolutely no choice.


-- Main.SteveH - 27 Oct 2006


---

Very funny, Doug.

That would make a great bumper sticker. I bet Catherine would drive around with that on her car.

-- Main.SusanS - 27 Oct 2006


---

On mastery and differentiated instruction...

I would definitely say my son was not taught mastery of basic math in first or second grade. He is now in third grade and was placed in an all inclusion class. I was shocked! I had no idea that was coming! I asked his second grade teacher last year about where he sat academically and she said fine. Everything was fine.  

Only everything is not fine obviously. I realized just how far behind he was when he was tested at Kumon. 

When I questioned why my son was in the lowest inclusion class, I was not given a straight answer. All that I was told was that he had trouble following directions and focusing. 

At our school there are five different third grade classes ...two non-inclusion (no aides) and three inclusion classes. The non-inclusion classes are not even on the same hall as the rest of the third graders. Supposedly, all the third grade classes are taught the same thing, but in a different sequence. I do not have a problem with that. Is this considered differentiated instruction or flexible achievement grouping? I am not sure which. I was told the teachers do not have to use the same activities...you know, each teacher has a different teaching style. 

What I want to know is where does my son fall among his peers? His teachers nor the principal will say. I am afraid he has been labeled. 
It is my opinion the school thinks he is slow in math therefore he must be slow in other subjects as well. Therefore, perhaps the school felt he couldn't handle a rigorous curriculum and placed him in a class where they felt he belonged...slow learner...hasn't learn basic facts...trouble focusing and following directions. 


My son seems to do fine in science, social studies and reading. He has a great attitude. He is eager to learn. No where on his second grade report card does it even suggest he has trouble focusing or with directions. He received all satisfactory marks.

After weeks of going back and forth with the principal, my son was moved to another class. Trust me...it was a battle. The principal did not want to move him. She said he was with a good peer group. When I asked her which peer group would that be she did not answer my question. She changed the subject. In fact, she said, "I have an obligation to my other students as well. What would the community think if I moved your son." Excuse me? I am asking you what you think his ability is, how can I help him achieve and you are worried about the community? I know for a fact two other students were moved from the first inclusion class, and placed in another class. They were moved before classes began. Their parents requested it. Why do you suppose that was?

I have quietly enrolled my son in Kumon. I have been told not to tell the school. Plus,  
my husband and I are going to privately have our son tested for ADHD. Hopefully, then we can get some answers since the school has failed to provide us with any. 

Thanks to all who comment on this wonderful site. If you have any suggestions or comments, please feel free to share them.

Paula

-- Main.PaulaV - 29 Oct 2006


---

Paula 

Don't let anyone else label your son, even the people who do the ADHD testing. I would think long and hard before doing that test with my son.

My tale is one of two nephews. Both had real issues in the lower grades. Both had schools that labeled them. The parents of one nephew fought the schools and did whatever they could to help him at home. No excuses. This nephew learned to work really hard. He graduated from college with a degree in computer science.

The parents of the other nephew wanted answers. They had all sorts of tests done and got all sorts of answers ... and prescriptions. I never quite understood the diagnosis. My nephew thought there was something seriously wrong with him. He didn't try. The parents didn't push. He seemed quite bright to me. He didn't graduate from high school.

If it were me, I would wait until my son spent some time with Kumon and teaching at home. If there still seemed to be a problem after that, I would learn as much (on my own) as I could about testing and its implications. I still might not do it.


-- Main.SteveH - 30 Oct 2006


---

I'm not against ADHD testing by a competent pediatric psychiatrist or psychologist, but if only one person has said something about his focusing, then I don't think you're necessarily at that place yet.

However, something is up with your school. Their stonewalling is strange and inappropriate, I think. I have no clue what they are doing, but they need to give you some specific reasons as to why they are placing your child the way they are.  Why the blow off?

Do you have his state test scores and anything else they have done with him? 



-- Main.SusanS - 30 Oct 2006


---

His current teacher is not the only one suggesting he has a problem with directions and focusing. The principal in a round about way hinted at it. The principal also said he was a people pleaser and I would have trouble in later years when new material was repeatedly being introduced. 

I've heard through the grapevine that the school will not suggest children be assessed because they have all the LD kids they can handle. 

I copied his record and the only assessment done in the second grade was benchmark testing. According to this, he is proficient in math and reading. His CogAT scores him average in non verbal and verbal and high in spatial reasoning...he received a 97. There are no other tests other than reading comprehension benchmarks in his file. There are no notes or recommendations from guidance counselors or teachers regarding inability to focus or trouble with following directions. 

He took the IOWA Basic Skills this fall. He takes the SOL test in the spring.

--PaulaV

-- Main.PaulaV - 30 Oct 2006


---

_I've heard through the grapevine that the school will not suggest children be assessed because they have all the LD kids they can handle._

I have noticed that kids that aren't that severe or have only one problem or so have a much harder time getting services. At least, I've heard this from several parents. They seem to have to advocate much more than I ever did.

Is it possible that he is simply bored in the full inclusion class? That seems to be a real problem for boys. Bright energetic boys in slow classes are a bad mix.

Do you know what math curriculum they're using, if any?  I'd be curious.

Either way, Kumon will really show you if there is a problem with him, or if it was just the school. 



-- Main.SusanS - 30 Oct 2006


---

I am trying to get into the classroom to volunteer so I can see for myself what is going on with my son. I can't say whether he is bored or not. He talks about the class being boring.

His class uses a Scott Foresman-Addison Wesley textbook for math. His school implemented a new math investigations series. The third grade literature received at parent night did not mention the name of the curriculum, but I found out it was TERQ. I asked the teacher specifically and she told me.

My son had his first Kumon session tonight. He did not complete the worksheets with 100% accuracy and he was upset about this. I told him  it takes time, but he didn't seem convinced.

--PaulaV

-- Main.PaulaV - 31 Oct 2006


---

Hey Paula,

I've heard a lot of things about TERC. There are parent groups out there specifically dealing with it.  I don't have any personal experience with it, but the horror stories sound very similar to the Everyday Math ones. From what I can remember TERC sounds like a constructivist, discovery-based, spiraling curriculum with a lot of small group learning, much like EM and Math Trailblazers. If it's not supplemented, a lot of kids simply don't seem to be doing enough math for mastery.

Also, take a look at the Illinois Loop website.  I think it's illinoisloop.com.  You can google it if I'm wrong.  

Illinois Loop covers a lot of ground with the various curriculums including Scott Foresman.  It has many links, as well.  NYCHold is another site with a lot of links and articles.

Catherine will have to weigh in on her Kumon experience (where'd she go?). I believe she got through high school Trig, but Kumon put her at around a 4th grade level to start, so your son should know that even the adults start at the bottom and work up for speed and accuracy.

-- Main.SusanS - 31 Oct 2006


---

Hello Susan,

Yes, Illinois Loop and NYCHold are wonderful! I've read the horror stories and that is why I became concerned with what my son was learning in math. If he has problems with staying focused, then TERQ may be a problem for him.

My son's teacher emailed me yesterday to say she thinks he has a reassurance problem. Okay...first it was trouble with directions and now it is reassurance. I don't trust the teacher or the school for that matter to give me an assessment on my son.

She also said she feels he is afraid to make mistakes. Last year, my son's second grade teacher chastised him for asking too many questions.

I see a pattern here. Don't ask too many questions leads to trouble with focusing and following directions which leads to problems with reassurance. 

The school plays a part in this pattern. Feel good about yourself...it's okay you can't write a sentence...you can draw nice pictures...just do your work quietly even if it is incorrect. 

I am hoping Kumon will help my son be more self-assured in the classroom. My son doesn't seem to have a problem being assured on the soccer field or anywhere else, but the classroom is a nightmare for him.

--PaulaV

-- Main.PaulaV - 31 Oct 2006


---

" ...but I found out it was TERQ. I asked the teacher specifically and she told me."

TERC? AAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHH! And they are JUST starting it? Where have they been? Even NCTM is going the other way. At least our town went from MathLand to Everyday Math. TERC is worse.


"He did not complete the worksheets with 100% accuracy and he was upset about this. I told him it takes time, but he didn't seem convinced."

Tell him to be patient. He is on the right track and that in no time he will be ahead of everyone else.


"I see a pattern here."

Me too!


-- Main.SteveH - 31 Oct 2006


---

Sorry, it is TERC. Yes, this is the new math series for this year. Our principal doesn't appear to be someone who cares too much about what the NCTM is doing. She has her own agenda.

Wasn't it you that wrote something about the performance index and the cut-off of expectations? Where can I find this information on my school district?

Yes, I told him to be patient. Easy does it.

Do you think the pattern is correct or incorrect?

--PV 

-- Main.PaulaV - 31 Oct 2006


---

"Wasn't it you that wrote something about the performance index and the cut-off of expectations? Where can I find this information on my school district?"

Gee, I can't find the details for MY state! I found the results and I tried to figure it out. Our state has big Department of Education web site with all sorts of data, but the details are missing. At least I could look at some sample tests and figure out that the cutoff was getting about half of the problems correct. The problem is (and I think this is true for other states) that the performance index is related to the percentage of kids a school gets over this minimum cutoff. It means that the our schools are high performing in getting a high percentage of kids over the minimum, but it DOES NOT mean that most of the kids are high performing. Our performance index is in the high 90's so many people in town think the education here is rated in the high 90's. The school does nothing to correct that interpretation. In fact, they encourage it.


Correct or incorrect pattern? I think it's a bad pattern. My experience is that teachers will tell parents a lot of things to keep them out of their hair. Things that just don't make sense.

When my son entered Kindergarten, they tested him  (and eveyone else) for (any) reading level. My son tested at a third grade level. At first, they didn't even tell us they were testing the kids. Then, they didn't want to tell us the results. We were quite naive at the time and wondered about the secrecy.  Actually, the results weren't a surprise to us. (We started teaching him phonics ages before!) It seems they just wanted to avoid any problems with having us get weird on them, like demanding that they "do" something special for our son. Then, without us really saying anything, the Kindergarten teacher pulls out some standard song and dance about how they often get kids who can read dictionaries, but they don't know what they are reading. Our reaction is OK, but what does this have to do with anything?

My wife and I started calling these lectures preemptive parental attacks. 


-- Main.SteveH - 31 Oct 2006


---

I am curious about the performance index. I will do some research.

All I am asking is how to help my son? Is there a problem? Don't spring it on me at the end of the year. I know someone who this happened to. Her kids goes to the same school. The teacher told her in May that her kid would have to attend summer school. She was shocked!

I did have a teacher tell me, "What can I do to appease you and your husband?" Unbelievable!!

Preemptive parental attacks. That is funny!

-- Main.PaulaV - 31 Oct 2006


---

PaulaV--

Regarding the reassurance/following the directions issue--

My older daughter, who is now a senior in high school, has anxiety issues (it's more than just the normal, routine anxiety).  

A quick example--at about the age of 4, when she was in preschool, her teachers had given the kids an informal "test" as to how well they knew their colors.  Kristy hadn't done particularly well on the test and the teachers expressed this concern to me.  

I was surprised by this, because I knew that Kristy knew her colors really well. As I thought about it, I realized that what was happening was that she knew there were different shades of the same color, but didn't know the names for those shades. Thus, when asked to identify what most people would refer to as blue, her brain was searching for the precise shade of blue and the corresponding name. In her mind, it was very important to be precise and accurate. 

Another form of anxiety reared its head again in first grade.  Her first grade was not a constructivist/discovery learning classroom.  Directions could be crystal clear and she would still ask questions because she was seeking reassurance.  Her teacher presented us with a behavior modification plan--if Kristy could make it through the school day and only ask three reassurance-type questions, then she would get a smiley face.  After collecting a specified number of smiley faces, we would then give her a reward.

The goal was to change her habit of seeking reassurance and it worked beautifully.  Kristy learned to ration her questions for the ones that truly mattered, because she really wanted that smiley face.

More to come . . .    

-- Main.KarenA - 31 Oct 2006


---

We have learned several things throughout the years as we have endeavored to help navigate a highly-motivated, very intelligent, and high anxiety child through her K-12 education. 

In general, when Kristy is presented with teachers who give ambiguous and unclear directions, it causes her a lot of anxiety, which causes her to seek reassurance or to ask questions. Fortunately, this doesn't happen very often.

Kristy also has the ability to "know what she doesn't know."  She is okay with knowing that there is more to know, unless she is going to be tested on material that she was supposed to discover on her own.

I realize (as does she) that there is a difference between being learning how to apply concrete knowledge and close your own gaps in knowledge and being responsible for (and tested over) material that the student is somehow expected to have learned by osmosis.   

By now you may be asking how this is relevant to your son.  In Kristy's case, in her early school years, her anxiety was triggered even when directions were clear.  However, in later school years, her anxiety was triggered (and thus her need for reassurance increased), when she was in effect made responsible for creating her own knowledge or given ambiguous and unclear instructions.   

Kristy's elementary school teachers primarily taught math to mastery using a mostly logical, coherent and sequential approach.  As a result, although math is not necessarily her strongest subject, the solid foundation that she received from her early years served her well and she has managed to do very well in math through the years. (Proud parent note--she scored a 33 in math on the ACT.)   

Our younger daughter's elementary school math curriculum (we moved from Indiana to Illinois)  was a spiralling, non-teach to mastery approach. Halfway through her third grade year, we enrolled her in KUMON--it was the best decision we could have made.

I hate to imagine what Kristy's math experience would have been like if she had been subjected to a non-teach to mastery spiralling curriculum in elementary school.  

-- Main.KarenA - 31 Oct 2006


---

behavior modification plan

Perhaps a behavior modification plan like the one you described would work with my son. Did the teacher suggest the plan or did you? Was the teacher helpful? My son's teacher feels there is a problem, but she offers no solutions. She wants to "monitor" the situation.

As far as KUMON is concerned, I think it will help him tremendously. He obviously did not learn the basics...the KUMON evaluation test proved it.

Thank you for your insight Karen!

--PaulaV







-- Main.PaulaV - 01 Nov 2006


---

PaulaV--

Kristy's first grade teacher was the one who suggested the behavior modication plan, and we were happy to try it. She was a seasoned teacher--very caring and compassionate. I often think about how lucky we were that Kristy had her for first grade.  Kristy was being taught to mastery; but it was her overall anxiety and need for perfection that was causing her to need lots of reassurance. 

Megan, our younger daughter, has a very different personalitiy.  She is confident and self-assured, and has been from the beginning. However, she wasn't being taught arithmetic to mastery, and while she wasn't particularly concerned, as parents, we certainly were.  Kumon provided the foundation for Algebra.

      

-- Main.KarenA - 01 Nov 2006


---

Karen,

I emailed you with some background on my son and some questions. Thank you again for your assistance.

--PaulaV

-- Main.PaulaV - 01 Nov 2006


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