Comments

Just the facts.

1. Sixth grade

2. It's the end of the year.

3. No notes from the teacher.

4. Nothing to note on the report card.

5. The parent never checked the backpack. (It must be getting very heavy.)

6. The parent doesn't know what is going on in his room in the evening.

7. The parent never shows any interest in his school work.

8. The parent thinks she/he is doing the best she/he can.

9. The parent blames it on some innate quality of the child.

My son is in fourth grade and I empty his backpack each day and check his assignment folder. I check his work in every subject because many times the school tells him to just do it without any prior introduction. I work with him if necessary. I help him prepare for tests. In the morning, I make sure that everything is in his backpack.

Kids are not born organized. You can't blame school and parental incompetence on the child. You might think that my approach does not help my son develop organizational skills, but the opposite is true. As time goes on, I am doing less of the organizing and more of the teaching. (I can control what I do, but I can't tell the school to teach better.)

-- SteveH - 06 Jan 2006

First, let me say that I agree that it is totally unreasonable for the teacher not to have said something to the parent back in September (August in Texas), when the second or third homework didn't get turned in.

But the more I read these discussions about dumping out your child's backpack and checking the assignment folder, the more I wonder:

At what age is it reasonable to start a transition of responsibility for turning in things to the child rather than the parent?

An idea is percolating...

Perhaps, back in the 60s and 70s before we had assignment folders, teachers assigned homework and communicated to the parents if it didn't get done. And now that there are assignment folders, maybe the teachers ass-u-me that they are being looked at by the parents?

I don't know. I have no experience with assignment folders. Is there a "contract" or an expectation that the parents are supposed to look at these? Or are they for the child to use for tracking things? Or what?

Still. An entire year with no feedback is outrageous. (Hmm... maybe the feedback was given in the form of a note to be carried home by the student. We all know how well that works.)

-- GoogleMaster - 06 Jan 2006

My mum always checked my sister's bag for notes etc, excepting when she (my mum) was ill etc. She never checked mine, because I always remembered. Same thing with our packing for camps. I did my own packing from about age 7 onwards; the one time my mum let my dad be in charge Julie forgot her underpants, socks, and t-shirts. Julie was about 15 at the time.

So depends a lot on the kid. But by the time the kid is school age you probably have a good idea of how well organised they are, and you can structure your naggings accordingly.

But not getting any feedback until the end of the year is just plain rude. The teacher would be in serious trouble if that kid had been Julie. My mum probably would have handed in all of the work, in one big bundle, and stood over them until they had corrected every single paper and entered the score accordingly in Julie's report.

-- SamanthaRawson - 06 Jan 2006

"I don't know. I have no experience with assignment folders. Is there a "contract" or an expectation that the parents are supposed to look at these? Or are they for the child to use for tracking things? Or what?"

For my son's school, the assignment/planner folder is to help them develop organizational skills. It's a nice idea, but it doesn't happen all by itself. Some kids might go through the motions because that is what they are supposed to do, but they forget to check their planner.

There is no contract (assumed or otherwise) with the parents, but as a parent, I like them a lot. I want to know exactly what my son is doing. Perhaps by sixth grade I won't have to check it at all. For now, my son knows that it is important and I will check it. This is just something I do. Eventually, it will just be something he does.

-- SteveH - 06 Jan 2006

There is a difference between grade school and middle school. I religiously checked both kid's backpacks daily for years in grade school to make sure they weren't getting behind and to instill that this is what you do to be successful.

Middle school is very different. The teachers don't want you around and do not communicate with you like the grade school teachers. They believe this has something to do with independence. As long as they do their job well I'm fine with that. But when they don't, I find this line of reasoning more than a little irritating.

You can check that middle school backpack all day if you want and still not find out what is going on. If you have a kid who is disorganized (or perhaps normally organized, but with developmentally inappropriate expectations being put on him) and a teacher who is disorganized, all of your hard work will fail. It can be a mess, as I have experienced with both kids.

The entertaining part is when you start to get involved because a teacher has alerted you to the problem and you still can't figure out what she/he wants. I have found this to be true with special ed and regular ed teachers at times. They'll explain some convuluted assignment and I'll have to ask 10 questions to be clear on what is expected of my son. Since I have a couple of degrees I know I'm not a total idiot, but I often feel like one during these sessions. I often hope that since I'm an adult and can't figure the assignment out, maybe the teacher will realize that some kids are going to have trouble, also.

I do wonder if Googlemaster isn't right about schools assigning more because they know they have most parents on the other end acting as personal secretaries. Way back in the day I think I remember writing some things down in a spiral notebook about what was coming up the next day, but no one checked it at home. I had no accordian folder or backpack either. How did we do it?

-- SusanS - 06 Jan 2006

This seems insane. I'm having trouble even understanding what is going on. I think you are saying that a student has at least 5 different teachers for core subjects and each of these teachers has, say four, different kinds of handouts: practice, homework, tests, etc. That would be at least 20 different kinds of things to keep track of. I'd think even an adult with good organizational skills would find this difficult.

And, given that males seem to have more trouble with multi-tasking than females, this situation seems especially unfair to the boys.

I'm curious whether a sixth-grade boy could even do such complex organizing in the abstract? I wonder how they'd do if you simply gave them an empty assignment folder and a bunch of pieces of paper with different labels and asked if they could come up with a system for putting the papers in the folder and retrieving them.

On the other hand, they do seem able to keep track of their baseball cards or whatever.

-- SusanJ - 06 Jan 2006

I'm curious whether a sixth-grade boy could even do such complex organizing in the abstract? I wonder how they'd do if you simply gave them an empty assignment folder and a bunch of pieces of paper with different labels and asked if they could come up with a system for putting the papers in the folder and retrieving them.

Woo, that's a nonstarter, I'm afraid.

On the other hand, they do seem able to keep track of their baseball cards or whatever.

Oh, no, not necessarily. This is what really clues you in to a kid that has real organizational problems and needs help -- these kids can't even manage to take care of the things they love. And many typical kids fall into this category.

-- CarolynJohnston - 06 Jan 2006

What happened to the days of copybooks?

We had one for each subject and that was it. All your note taking and homework was done in the copybooks and periodically checked by the teacher. All the parents had to do was look for the teacher's notations in the copybooks to make sure the homework was being done satisfactorily.

You could also carry around a folder for handouts and other important loose material, but in the middle school years this stuff wasn't usually necessary for future use. When you needed to study for a test you just went through your copybook starting at the lesson after the last test ans studied to yesterday's lesson.

Built in organization.

In fact a modified version of this system carried me through college. First I changed to a seven subject spiral copybook, but quickly realized that you had to lug around a lot of blank paper all year long. Then I wised up and went with looseleaf and three-hole-punch folders. I'd take notes on looseleaf for each course and then bind the looseleaf into each course's folder daily or weekly. At the end of the semester you had practically a bound version of your notes for each course for posterity.

-- KDeRosa - 06 Jan 2006

Ken -- that guy you posted is scaring me.

-- CarolynJohnston - 06 Jan 2006

Is that you?

-- CarolynJohnston - 06 Jan 2006

no, I'm that that visually disturbing or crazy looking.

It was the only image I could quickly find when I googled marble copybooks. Interestingly, my search turned up page after page after catholic school supplies lists.

-- KDeRosa - 06 Jan 2006

Steve

My son is in fourth grade and I empty his backpack each day and check his assignment folder. I check his work in every subject because many times the school tells him to just do it without any prior introduction. I work with him if necessary. I help him prepare for tests. In the morning, I make sure that everything is in his backpack.

wow

good for you!

I was clueless in the 4th grade (um.....when Christopher was in 4th grade).

That was the year I missed the fact he was flunking math

Did I mention I need to get organized?

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Jan 2006

We had one for each subject and that was it. All your note taking and homework was done in the copybooks and periodically checked by the teacher. All the parents had to do was look for the teacher's notations in the copybooks to make sure the homework was being done satisfactorily.

oh, that's what those things are for!

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Jan 2006

On the other hand, they do seem able to keep track of their baseball cards or whatever.

Christopher can't keep track of anything.

I think that's standard for kids; I'm constantly reading parent personal narratives about the frantic Search For Stuff before soccer games, etc.

Kids don't have frontal lobe development, period.

Christopher, for instance, simply is not getting it about picking his clothes up off the floor. We tell him over and over, but it's out of his brain before he's done it.

Basically, all kids have ADHD to some degree, compared to adults.

So do older people. The frontal lobes are the main (or only?) part of the brain to suffer with age.

I'm far more distractible than I used to be.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Jan 2006

Steve

The one missing piece in your comment is what happens at school.

I've just learned that Christopher did not hand in 3 out of 10 math homework assignments.

He did all of them, and I got them into his folder.

They didn't make it to school.

He says he lost them somewhere, and they're probably in his locker.

I can't manage him at school; I can't do a locker check; etc.

The principal agreed that we shouldn't be hearing about missing homework weeks after it was due.

There's a huge formative assessment issue, too. If the teacher isn't requiring them to turn in homework, she has no idea whether they can do it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Jan 2006

Ken

I'm thinking about the copybook idea....

Today middle schoolers have a billion subjects....More is More. Christopher was required to purchase something like 9 or 11 separate folders at the beginning of the school year. That's why I came up with the 9-pocket folder, so everything could be in one place. (And that's why other kids are now copying my idea.)

Christopher's subjects are:

• math

• English language arts for two hours, which means:

• spelling

• writing

• reading

• Spanish

• social studies

• music

• P.E. (they sometimes take tests in P.E.)

• 'home ec'

• science

• study skills

That would be 12 copy books in all, which is a huge amount of weight to carry around.

They aren't allowed to carry backpacks in school, so that's another obstacle.

oops — pancakes done — back later

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Jan 2006

MUCH later.....

The other problem, vis a vis copy books, is PACKETS

Packets are the Whole Entire Deal in middle school.

Packets & packets & packets

An organized kid in middle school these days requires a desk-sized 3-hole punch, so he can 3-hole punch his packets every night, and confine them to his zippered binder.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Jan 2006

Consider this the first sign of the apocalyse. When a middle-schooler has too many subjects to fit them into a copybook, there's a problem. Or, when teh school work can't fit in copybooks, rest assured the parents will be afterschooling.

-- KDeRosa - 09 Jan 2006

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"The one missing piece in your comment is what happens at school."

"I've just learned that Christopher did not hand in 3 out of 10 math homework assignments."

If I found out that the school didn't check the homework or didn't inform me that it didn't get passed in, they would get more than an earful from me. Actually, they are very good. If homework doesn't get done (or the kids try to rush and get it done right before class), they have to stay in at recess to do the work and they have to write a letter to their parents. I have seen this happen only once for my son when he forgot to bring home a book for homework and therefore couldn't get it done. Remember, this is a private K-8 school. They know why parents leave public school, even if they can't seem to ditch math curricula like Everyday Math.

They do have the problem of having the kids correct many of their math homework assignments. The teacher goes over the answers, but the kids correct their own work. The teacher doesn't seem to collect the work to see how the kids are doing?!?!? Fortunately, I review all homework and I know what is going on.

-- SteveH - 09 Jan 2006

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And for each packet there is a specific page that's supposed to be completed on such-and-such date.

We keep all of our packets in the front of the binder, too, lest one escape and we're lost forever. Some of ours have similar names or special language arts names ("genre studies") so that everytime I pull them out I have to relearn what they're for.

-- SusanS - 09 Jan 2006

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Ken

Consider this the first sign of the apocalyse

OK, that's going straight into Wit and Wisdom.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

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Ken

When a middle-schooler has too many subjects to fit them into a copybook, there's a problem. Or, when teh school work can't fit in copybooks, rest assured the parents will be afterschooling.

Absolutely.

I found a great Diane Ravitch interview on this issue.....will get it up at some point.

Our schools are seriously Off-Task.

IMO

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

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Steve

If I found out that the school didn't check the homework or didn't inform me that it didn't get passed in, they would get more than an earful from me.

Exactly.

Ed was monitoring people's faces during our Parent Meeting, and he said the principal wasn't happy to hear that teachers aren't checking homework, and aren't telling parents that homework hasn't been turned in.

He told us so directly, afterward.

I need to learn more about 'turn-around' management.

Apparently, the middle school has always had 'problems' (though it appears they had a good principal for a while who left for a better job.....I really don't know the history).

How does one person, newly hired, change the normal, long-standing operations of an institution?

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

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If homework doesn't get done (or the kids try to rush and get it done right before class), they have to stay in at recess to do the work and they have to write a letter to their parents.

ABSOLUTELY.

This is my beef.

The teacher doesn't know if Christopher can do the work or not. She has no idea, and has said so, in so many words.

Of course, in our case, she wouldn't learn much from the homework, because I go over every problem with him at home (every problem — all four problems) and have him do them over again to get them right.

So his homework goes in looking like he can do it.

But she doesn't know that, and she hasn't tried to find out!

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

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I think it's probably fine not to have the teacher correct the homework himself/herself, if only because the faster you get feedback the better.

My feeling is that the ideal approach is to correct the homework in class the next day, then have kids re-do the problems they've missed.

Carol Gambill, of course, assigns only problems that have the answers in the back of the book.

Her kids (8th graders) do the problems, check the answer, then re-do problems they missed that night.

They don't wait for the next class.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

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Ken

One of these days you're going to give us all a collective nervous breakdown with those GOOGLE FINDS of yours.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

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That guy is SERIOUSLY scary.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Jan 2006

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Wit and Wisdom

-- CatherineJohnson - 18 Jan 2006

WebLogForm
Title:	getting the Call
TopicType:	WebLog
SubjectArea:	CognitiveScience, EducationResearch, MiddleSchoolMath
LogDate:	200601051939

Attachment	Action	Size	Date	Who	Comment
marble.jpg	manage	13.1 K	06 Jan 2006 - 17:34	KDeRosa