Comments

"Next time don't cry & get a 90."

Now that's a life lesson that is probably more valuable than a year's worth of middle-school math classes. Harder to learn, though.

-- DougSundseth - 28 Feb 2006

It sounds like he's developing his flexible knowledge nicely.

Have you talked with the teacher about her giving tests that cover more difficult problems than the kids have practised on?

-- TracyW - 28 Feb 2006

Wow! To choke in the middle of a test like that, then pull your act together and get an 80, is a quite respectable performance.

Tell him that means he's good in math. The you're good in math meme goes a long way with kids (actually, 'you're good at xxx' does too -- although if you apply it too broadly they get suspicious).

-- CarolynJohnston - 28 Feb 2006

"The you're good in math meme goes a long way with kids . . ."

I concur. My "spatially challenged" highly verbal 11th grader has managed to do well in math over the years, in part because she is a hard worker and very determined. For example, in 8th grade, she scored a 200 on the Math portion of the ISAT test and she gutted out an A in Honors Geometry her freshman year.

Last year, her Algebra II teacher casually mentioned to her that she seemed to be "good at math." She came home that night and said that was the first time a teacher had ever said that to her--and that she had never considered herself to be good at math because she had to work so hard at it.

I thought that was sad somehow, and I silently kicked myself that we hadn't managed to convey that message to her, either. Why does it matter? I think, at least in her case, is that it would have helped her with her confidence level and also helped to ease some of her anxiety. She would have viewed herself as someone who was good at math.

However, this year, in particular, she has really started to make the connection that success is often (usually?) a function of hard work.

As for Christopher--bless his heart! And wow--what a "gutting it out" effort! But what bothers me is that the way the class seems to be structured just seems to be so hard on the kids. It just seems like it's relentless. After all, they are just sixth graders!! I think it would be difficult to develop a "love for math" and to develop math confidence under those circumstances.

It's almost like that class is a "survival of the fittest" contest on at least some level. What is the expression? That which does not kill me makes me stronger! -- KarenA - 28 Feb 2006

Now that's a life lesson that is probably more valuable than a year's worth of middle-school math classes.

That's for damn sure!

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Tracy

Have you talked with the teacher about her giving tests that cover more difficult problems than the kids have practised on?

That was one of the issues last year, in the Parent Math Revolution meeting. My neighbor was losing her mind; it was a sight to behold. She was CONSTANTLY trying to get ahead of the book, anticipate the next onslaught, teach the stuff FIRST,.....unbelievable. (She's the statistician.)

This year it's hopeless. The tests are easier, so there's no parent revolt — and I don't have the energy or even the motivation to stir one up. Last year kids were getting grades in the 20s and 30s; this year kids are up in the 70s, 80s, & 90s.

So: PROBLEM SOLVED.

I find it incredibly difficult to communicate with this teacher. Not because she's not committed to her job, or interested in the kids, etc.....but because she's difficult to communicate with.

My friend S. just had a conversation with her that went something like this:

S.: 'Well, M. couldn't do the homework problems because he didn't know how. He said you didn't go over them in class.'

Teacher: 'I did go over them. I taught them in class.'

S.: Oh! Then I don't know what he was talking about. He said that when he did the assignment he'd never seen problems like that before.

Teacher: I didn't teach the problems before the homework. I taught them after the homework.

S. said her tone was 'WELL, DUH-HHH, OF COURSE I DIDN'T TEACH THE CONCEPT BEFORE THEY DID THE HOMEWORK.'

For me, and for S., a conversation like this gets you into head-banging mode.

S. was sitting there thinking her kid was crazy, launching into an apology for having bothered the teacher with her kid's stupid report from school, AND IT TURNS OUT THAT NOT ONLY IS HER KID'S STUPID REPORT FROM SCHOOL TRUE, BUT THAT TO THE TEACHER IT'S NOT A PROBLEM.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

My problem with the teacher (and I'd put money on it this is every parent's problem) is disconnect. She doesn't seem to register what you've said. I've actually wondered if she could have a bit of a math-y Asperger-y brain. Scott, the principal, says 'she knows her math' and that may be true. (Of course, he also said, 'She knows her pedagogy.')

Basically, I can't get a bead on her at all, and I can't seem to get through to her. I've tried, god knows.

Here's another data point: normally I'm in a state of Perfect Oneness when it comes to communicating with teachers.

I think I understand what teachers say to me (and I don't pick up on nonverbals indicating they feel otherwise).

I always get the sense teachers understand what I've said to them.

I've had such successful communications with teachers that Ed and I have managed to say fairly novel things - things the teacher wasn't expecting to hear - and have the teacher quickly pick up on the point.

(MAJOR QUALIFIER: THIS FREQUENTLY HASN'T BEEN TRUE IN SPECIAL ED, TALKING ABOUT AUTISM)

A good example is the conversation we had with Mrs. Panitz, Christopher's math teacher in 5th grade.

She had no idea we were going to ask about moving him to Phase 4, and she didn't think he should be moved to Phase 4.

But within just a couple of minutes she jumped completely off her mental track (was Christopher a GATE kid in math?) to ours (overachievers anonymous).

That didn't happen because we were pressuring her; we weren't.

She just very flexibly shifted from a GATE perspective to a hard-work-and-parental-support perspective.

She also, when she made this shift, brought up points we hadn't thought of.

She said that every class, no matter what its level, always broke down into 3 groups (basically a bell curve, I assume).

She reasoned from there that since Christopher was at the very top of his Phase 3 class, and since the very bottom of the current Phase 4 class had kids who weren't doing so well, the two curves had some overlap.....she also brought up the point, which was crucial to her in making a recommendation, that we would be providing Christopher with all the 'support' he needed in terms of re-teaching at home, pre-teaching, tutoring, extra problems, etc.

I'm blabbing on here, but the point is: these kinds of conversations with teachers in regular ed have been normal for us. Even when our perspectives are diametrically opposed, we've understood their point (I think) and they've understood ours.

That simply doesn't happen - that I can see - with Ms. Kahl.

Disconnect is the only word I can come up with.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

That said, I'm going to noodge her about assigning word problems.

You simply can't teach only formulas and calculations and then give a 40-minute test with 11 word problems on it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Tracy

It sounds like he's developing his flexible knowledge nicely.

I really feel like that is happening!

I have to write a post about vacation.

We did some math every day, and I was SO heartened. He was picking up on things so quickly.

We need some intermediate terms to describe the 'getting there' phase.

He doesn't have expertise, and he doesn't have flexible knowledge.

But he's not a rank beginner, either.

NAEP uses the terms 'basic' and 'proficient,' which I like.....but even those don't quite capture it.

"Basic" isn't bad, though. He definitely has basic knowledge of ratio & proportion.

Maybe basic is what I'm looking for. This course has been hell, but I think he's going to come out of it with basic knowledge of 'pre-algebra,' whatever that is.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Of course, that's the whole point of spiralling, and I sure as hell don't want to reinforce that concept.

I should probably strike that whole last concept.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Back to the homework-before-teaching issue.....I should point out that she never assigns pages to read in the text.

I wonder if she's structuring the course the way Matt used to structure his college course: you assign the students a section in the text to study & a set of problems to do & then the professor discusses & teaches the concept to students who have been 'primed.' (That's the word for this approach in behaviorism.)

Priming is a proven technique for teaching, BUT THESE KIDS AREN'T BEING PRIMED.

She doesn't assign any text to read or study!

She just assigns a new batch of problems, has the kids struggle with them, THEN teaches the concept the next day.

Of course.....come to think of it: that makes sense of all the 4-problem homework sets.

All year long I've been going nuts with these 4-problem assignments.

Why the hell are they doing 4 problems?

How are they going to learn anything doing 4 problems?

If these 4 problems are just a preview of a concept they haven't learned yet.....then 4 problems is plenty.

This also explains why Christopher hasn't been able to do any of his homework ever.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

I'll add that in some cases I know she's taught the concept before they've done homework.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Carolyn

Tell him that means he's good in math. The you're good in math meme goes a long way with kids

You are SO right, AND I'D FORGOTTEN THAT WITH MY OWN KID!

Probably half the reason my Singapore Math class was so effective was that I was telling the kids 'you're good in math' every time they got something right.

Or I'd tell them, 'You have a math brain!'

When they got something wrong I'd tell them how to get it right, or they'd work it through with me - whatever we needed to do. (As a rank beginner, I had no idea how to calibrate problems to their level. I'd bring in stuff that was way too easy, then veer over to stuff that was way too hard.....and I would just acknowledge this. They didn't seem to be bothered by the too-hard stuff at all, because I kept telling them that 'In Singapore the rule is: start easy and work up.')

'You're good in math' goes a long way.

I'm going to start making myself say that to Christopher.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

and she gutted out an A in Honors Geometry her freshman year

That's my kind of kid!

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Gutting it out is the whole key to life.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Karen A

I thought that was sad somehow, and I silently kicked myself that we hadn't managed to convey that message to her, either. Why does it matter? I think, at least in her case, is that it would have helped her with her confidence level and also helped to ease some of her anxiety. She would have viewed herself as someone who was good at math.

However, this year, in particular, she has really started to make the connection that success is often (usually?) a function of hard work.

You're so right.

I'm such a farmer at heart (I mean that literally; my dad was a farmer) that Hard Work is it for me. My mom actually said to me, one time, 'You girls aren't brilliant, but you're hard workers.'

That was a bad conversation in my case.

I had had straight As for my entire childhood, and I was getting straight As in high school. I told my mom that I wanted to be valedictorian, and she said I shouldn't think about that, that I wasn't brilliant but I was a hard worker.

As a direct result of that conversation I didn't study for my final in biology & got a C, which brought my average for the course down to a B.

That was the only B I got in high school, and I ended up salutatorian instead of valedictorian!

So that particular conversation, with that particular timing, was bad....but the lesson was good. I never worried about being brilliant; I worried about working hard enough, staying on track, etc.

BUT now I'm making the same mistake with Christopher.

To me, hard work trumps brilliance. (Not exactly, but you know what I mean.)

But he could probably use a little more confidence in his native ability.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

she has really started to make the connection that success is often (usually?) a function of hard work

One thing I do manage to point out from time to time is that, in athletics, succes is always a result of talent and very, very hard work.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Karen A

But what bothers me is that the way the class seems to be structured just seems to be so hard on the kids. It just seems like it's relentless. After all, they are just sixth graders!! I think it would be difficult to develop a "love for math" and to develop math confidence under those circumstances.

It's almost like that class is a "survival of the fittest" contest on at least some level. What is the expression? That which does not kill me makes me stronger!

At this point I just have to hope that this course makes him stronger - and I think it will.

The course is relentless. There's no reason on earth to structure it this way.

I feel the way Carolyn felt about Ben's Connected Math course.

Carolyn said she didn't want Ben's social training to happen in math class.

I don't particularly want Christopher's character education to happen in math class.

I would like math education to happen in math class.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Christopher is learning math.

That is happening.

But as I work through Saxon 8/7, in parallel to Christopher's year with Prentice-Hall, I feel sick contemplating the lost opportunity.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

Two things:

you say Mrs. Kahl knows her math, yet she clearly assigned one problem on a test that has dimensions that were totally wrong... and she couldn't see it!!

Also, if I were Christopher, or any other child in that class, I would have to be wondering (or he would wonder this summer when he has time) whether math classes are going to be relentless like this form now on. I certainly would not like math if I thought it was always going to be this hard and this confusing and if I was going to have to always do extra work at home.

-- AnneDwyer - 28 Feb 2006

you say Mrs. Kahl knows her math, yet she clearly assigned one problem on a test that has dimensions that were totally wrong... and she couldn't see it

I just have no idea whether she 'knows her math' or not, frankly

that's what the principal said

last year my neighbor had a debate with her about whether the equals sign means 'is' (something like that....I'm probably distorting it, but at the time it seemed like a very strange thing to be arguing over, & my neighbor was correct)

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006

I would have to be wondering (or he would wonder this summer when he has time) whether math classes are going to be relentless like this form now on

NO KIDDING

A mom I know here, whose son took Calculus BC, told his mom he would never look at another math book as long as he lived.

This is a smart kid, now at an Ivy League university, and he's DONE.

I think that's horrible, and I certainly don't want it to happen to Christopher.

There is just no reason for this.

I've never taken calculus, so I don't know how 'hard' I'll find it to be.

But we're still in elementary math/basic algebra.

I KNOW THIS MATERIAL SHOULDN'T BE THIS HARD.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Feb 2006