ReactionRange < Kitchen

27 Oct 2006 - 20:25

reaction range

I've mentioned that years ago I interviewed Irving Gottesman, the originator of the concept of the "reaction range."^*

Gottesman was then spending many hours giving interviews to journalists in hopes of dispelling the notion that genes produce fixed behaviors or personality characteristics.

He gave the example of IQ. If a person had two parents with IQs of 100, he said, that person's "reaction range" was 80 to 120, or 20 points below his parents's IQ and 20 points above. 40 points.

That's a wide range.

Very few genes, he stressed, have a one-gene-one-outcome profile. At the time the gene for Huntington's may have been the only one he could name.

Almost all genes produce a reaction range of possible outcomes in the actual human being who bears the gene. The reaction range limits our potential; the person with parents whose IQ is 100 can't get to an IQ of 135 by dint of hard work and good schooling. But the reaction range also considerably expands the range of possible outcomes from what journalists and lay people were then — and now — assuming to be possible.

the environment makes the difference

What determines whether a person ends up at the "low end" of his reaction range or the "high end"?

His environment.

When it comes to IQ, what is the relevant environment?

Well, home, definitely; home and nutrition. Plus the child's own biology, or his internal environment.

Home, nutrition, biology and —

school

The "reaction range" explains why we don't want schools in the business of ratifying "nature." It explains why we don't want schools deciding that a child is a "3" and then basing all future actions on the 3ness of the child. It explains why we don't want rigid tracking.

We want our schools to assume they don't know what any given child's reaction range is.

We want our schools to assume they don't know what any given child's reaction range is because as a matter of fact a school does not know what any given child's reaction range is. No one does.

And we want our schools to assume that any child's school-relevant characteristics - IQ, speed of learning, etc. - can be improved by a good education.

Can a school change a child's reaction range?

No.

Can a school move a child up or down within his reaction range?

Yes.

You don't have to have spent 2 hours of your life interviewing Irving Gottesman to know this.

All of us are familiar with reaction ranges whether we've thought about them this way or not.

When we talk about a child reaching or not reaching his "full potential," we're talking about reaction range.

A good school and a good teacher should naturally assume that any child can do better without being Death-Marched into early burn-out.

Good schools and good teachers should have "high" expectations not in the sense of clobbering kids with assignments many levels over their heads and tests they can't do, but in the sense of great expectations.

A good school and a good teacher start where the student is, but always assumes that the student has not yet maxed out the high end of his reaction range.

A good school and a good teacher think positive.

This lecture slide (not sure where it's from) isn't a bad representation of Gottesman's hypothesis.

^* A quick trip through the internet reveals that Gottesman's concept has been critiqued, expanded, revised, etc. But it has not been rejected, from what I can see. For our purposes the simple definition I've given here will do.

on not teaching to mastery - Gentile & Lalley
Engelmann on diversity and teaching to mastery
IQ is a range, not a point
mastery learning & IQ in a nutshell

-- CatherineJohnson - 27 Oct 2006

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It's very frustrating when the schools don't see the potential in your child. They don't think in terms of "reaction range." They've always been more interested in labelling.

The schools are really into biological determinism. That's why they don't make any real attempt to remediate. They just label children as having disabilities and deficits.

-- RobynW - 28 Oct 2006

They don't think in terms of "reaction range."

They've never heard of the concept. Period.

By now I have a few "core" experiences that sum up my experience of public school, one of them being the time the 25 year old guidance counselor at the middle school told me that Christopher, whom he'd never met & whose records he'd never seen, "was a 3."

"He's a 3."

He said this because I had just told him Christopher had been tracked into Phase 3 math in 3rd grade and I wanted to know about accelerating him to Phase 4.

The guidance counselor said that almost certainly wouldn't be possible.

I said, "He's gotten 4s on all his state math tests."

He said, "That's different. The state tests don't determine the placement. He's a 3."

"He's a 3" is the single most offensive statement anyone in this school district has ever made to me.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Oct 2006

One thing I like about this illustration is the difference in the reaction ranges.

Look at A's reaction range as compared to C's.

Gottesman didn't mention this in our talk; we didn't discuss the possibility that one person might have a wider IQ reaction range than another.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Oct 2006

I think it's entirely possible that "reaction range" explains why 4 of my 6 "3s" in Singapore math moved up to Phase 4.

They didn't spend much time doing math with me; the time was too short & my classroom management skills too poor.

They did spend quite a lot of time hearing from me that they had "math brains" and could do math.

Basically, I communicated the concept of reaction range in kid terms, and told them all they were (most likely) not working at the top of their own ranges.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Oct 2006

I've spent two years telling Christian, "Math isn't hard."

Now that he's got his college level reading scores on the placement test and he's whipping through Saxon I'm pointing out that he can do math.

He's always told me his dad was good at math; now he's saying his grandmother is good at math.

These perceptions are important.

The thing about the much-maligned self-esteem movement is that they got a central concept right, which is that most of us need to think a thing is possible in order to do it.

(I'm sometimes happy to do a thing that is not possible, such as attempting to produce systemic change in my school district, but that's another story.)

The self-esteem folks got the concept of believing in oneself, but they don't seem to have linked it to actually doing and learning stuff.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Oct 2006

What really galls me is the high-end special ed kids.

NOBODY sees talent in these kids.

They just see deficits.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Oct 2006

Plus I've seen at least two very high-end, barely making it into the category sped kids who have math talent.

Not only does no one recognize this, but in one case math performance is now suffering. (Don't know about the other kid.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Oct 2006

I think the legal status of public schools creates incentives for the kind of essentialism we see...but I can't quite explain it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 28 Oct 2006

"What really galls me is the high-end special ed kids. Nobody sees talent in these kids. They just see deficits."

Absolutely. That's why classifying children is such a hard decision for parents. The kids need the extra attention and help, but then they're stuck with a label that nobody can see past. And labelling kids with disabilities gives the schools an excuse for not remediating.

For example, the school can put in an IEP that the kid "doesn't understand place value to the hundred millions." Will they work with the kid on place value until he or she gets it? Explain it differently? Send home worksheets? Make any systematic attempt to fill in the gaps? No. They just point out that the kid doesn't understand it... presumably because of the disability.

-- RobynW - 28 Oct 2006

"The thing about the much maligned self-esteem movement is that they got a central concept right, which is that most of us need to think a thing is possible in order to do it."

I also agree with this. I actually think the schools are moving away from self-esteem and psychology and more into "essentialism". The pendulum swings too far in one direction and then too far in the other.

It is galling that the guidance counselor labelled your son as "a 3" as if he couldn't improve or work his way up to a 4. The schools were far from perfect when I was a kid, but at least the teachers had a better grasp of "reaction range," although, of course, they didn't call it that. The better ones understood the value of hard work and extra effort for any kid.

To clarify my previous comment, I understand that you can put in an IEP that the kid will learn place value by the end of the year, but then there would just be other gaps that would not be remediated because of the disability. The kid's brain is defective. It has nothing to do with the school system.

-- RobynW - 28 Oct 2006

For example, the school can put in an IEP that the kid "doesn't understand place value to the hundred millions."

Part of the problem with IEP's is that skills special ed kids are supposed to master might be missing that day, or that minute, but they're actually there.

That's the way it is. There may actually be some level of mastery or even 75-80% mastery of a particular concept, but due to the nature of the cognitive issue, or even how the question was asked, that skill is lost on them at the moment.

It is critical for the teachers to truly know these things so that they can teach beyond what the IEP is stating.

I often had frustration with schools about recognizing my special ed son's upper range. Even when they finally see it, about halfway through the year, they don't seem to know how to exploit it because of super slow processing on some days, or ADHD anxiety, or what not.

The one thing that spurred me to start after schooling him seriously with Saxon was the realization that he was simply not getting a fraction of the practice in anything that regular kids got, when he desperately needed at least double to stay on the highest level that he could.

Part of this had to do with how slow he worked at the school and how easily distracted he was. If there was homework it took him hours to do even the simplest thing, so they passed on that after a while. Once I committed to a 5 day routine with Saxon, the improvement was amazing.

-- SusanS - 29 Oct 2006

That's amazing, Susan.

I guess I assumed that the SPED kids tended to get more work and practice to make up for the deficits. That would seem to be the right thing to do based on what Catherine has posted over OnNotTeachingToMastery . The slow learners need more practice. Frequently the kids with an IEP are slower to learn, but they can learn.

Why would the school reduce practice for a slow learner? It makes little sense to me.

-- LynnGuelzow - 29 Oct 2006

I think afterschooling and tutoring make all the difference for high-end special ed kids. I know people who rely solely on the school to educate their children because the school is "legally obligated" to provide them with "a free and appropriate education" and related services. The result is often disaster. The kids get pushed along with huge gaps in their skills. There is often no real remediation.

Lynn, I don't think SPED kids get more work and practice to make up for their deficits. In fact, often the curriculum is modified for them so that they do less. Because they work more slowly, they might do three problems, while the other kids do five. Parents really need to oversee their education and make sure they get the practice they need.

-- RobynW - 30 Oct 2006

Why would the school reduce practice for a slow learner? It makes little sense to me.

After all these years of thinking about it, I really don't think they meant to. I think they adopted a mindset that if they didn't get it in a certain amount of time then they just couldn't get it because well, they're slow. I think they just gave up and didn't look closely enough at why certain basic concepts weren't sticking.

For instance, everytime the school brought in a new program (math, reading, social studies, whatever) it usually had a constructivist bent or a "deep structure" one. The special ed teachers were instructed to try to make it work with their kids. I think they often had reservations about using these programs with the kids, but they really had no choice. Children who could barely decode on any given day were trying to make "inferences" about books 2 years over their heads. In math they were to work in goups and discover their way to concepts they weren't really ready to understand.

But with a lot of the constructivist ideas, children look very happy on the outside. They look like they're learning.

Special ed kids, particularly with behavior problems, are often very draining for teachers during the school day. Settling down and getting to work with pencil and paper can be an exercise in head-banging, particularly if the classroom looks like my son's (with a few ADHD, autistic, developmentally delayed, borderline IQs and behavioral cases, all mulling around with various aides doing different things.) Not a great environment for anyone to focus quietly in, a disaster for many of these kids.

But if they're all mulling around doing fun projecty things, there is less anxiety and unhappiness. Mix that up with bithdays and assemblies and character ed and on and on, and well, those aren't just gaps developing. It's more like the Gulf of Mexico.

I've also found that there's a disconnect between some teacher's ideas and the importance of sequence. I've seen special ed classrooms with Saxon books that were used here and there, but never as intended. I don't think they really know why these books make such a difference to these kids (or to many kids). There is a chronic jumping around of subjects, which gets dramatically worse when testing rolls around.

I could go and on, but I just finally decided after a while to join the SYO (Save Your Own) club. It dramatically lowered my own anxiety level in dealing with all of this.:)

-- SusanS - 30 Oct 2006

I'll join your club SusanS^?.

I'd like to make a difference, but perhaps all of my blogging will only help others join your club.

A big problem I see in schools, and this is for all students, is the lack of specific goals. I was thinking about this the other night when I asked my son how his reading was going. He said that he read the required 20 minutes (per night). I said that was nice, but when was the book report due? As it turned out, there was a disconnect between process and the goal.

This was a great opportunity for a lesson on the importance of getting the job done. You can be as dedicated and hard working as you like, I said, but if you don't get the job done, it doesn't matter.

This made me think of the schools. They just go through the process. They have tangible goals, of course, like preparing lessons and grading homework, but there are no learning goals. We talk about how the brain works, constructivism, and all sorts of other grand ideas, but it all doesn't matter if kids slide along with only very low (or not specific) expectations of learning.

In the early grades, teachers think that the kids are not quite ready for the material yet, but it's OK, because they will see the material again next year. After a few years (without learning), the teachers begin to think that it's a problem with the student and not with the teaching methods. By high school, everything looks like external causes.

-- SteveH - 30 Oct 2006

What if you don't have an IEP, but your child's teacher has labeled him as having problems with directions and focus? I posted earlier that my husband and I were thinking of having our third grade son tested for ADHD. SteveH^? (thank you for your advice) said he wouldn't do it.

I have enrolled my son in Kumon so I will wait to see if this along with afterschooling at home will help him.

PaulaV^?

-- PaulaV - 30 Oct 2006

I have enrolled my son in Kumon so I will wait to see if this along with afterschooling at home will help him.

PaulaV^?

-- PaulaV - 30 Oct 2006

"...child's teacher has labeled him as having problems with directions and focus?"

And this is not normal for a child in the early grades? The major theme for my son is FOCUS! I would go to the teacher and say that all kids have problems with directions and focus and that he/she has to be much more specific. I would tell the teacher that I can't fix anything if they can't describe the problem accurately.

I also think that all of the child-centered group learning is no help for this. Happy, active learners could very easily be noisy kids with no focus.

-- SteveH - 30 Oct 2006

Of course it is normal. However, when my husband and I asked her about her general impression of her class...she says they are only a few with focus/direction problems. I took that as your sure there are others in the room who don't/can't follow directions or stay focused, but your son seems to be the worse case.

Either I am not phrasing the questions correctly to the teacher or she has no idea herself how to help my son. I have tried to get her to be more specific...she gave me a written sheet of paper of what looked like a daily schedule. She did not say what areas he seemed to be in lacking in focus or following directions.

I get a feeling the teachers in this school do not like noisy kids with no focus even if they are happy, active learners.

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 30 Oct 2006

Paula, the problem is there is no clear, black-and-white test for ADHD. The doctor will evaluate the evidence and make a judgment call. To make matters more confusing, attention problems often go together with learning difficulties, and it may not be clear which is causing which. ADHD can be difficult to diagnose, especially when the child is not hyperactive.

I agree with Steve that the structure of the curriculum worsens attention issues. Child-centered, project oriented learning can make it all the more difficult to concentrate and focus. Unfortunately, that's the way the schools are today, and you're not going to change them any time soon.

You are doing the right thing by enrolling your son in Kumon and working with him after school. This is essential even if your son does have attention problems. I would give this time and see if it works.

If this does not work, and your son is not functioning well in school, you may have to seek outside help and advice.

-- RobynW - 30 Oct 2006

I certainly agree with all that is being said. I understand changing the school system is a an uphill battle. A battle I am unwilling to wage.

Thank you for your advice!

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 30 Oct 2006

The Kumon pays off: Megan's sped classroom teacher noted Meg is very good at calculation compared to most of the other kids. Of course, issues w/word problems are universal given this is a speech/language delay classroom. I found the middle school uses an SRA "leveled" math program where kids are placed in a certain level (ala Kumon) depending on their gaps rather than a grade level book.

And at my first-grader's "student-led" (don't get me started on that topic) conference, she said Math was her favorite subject. When the teacher asked why, she said, "because I like to go to Kumon and do Math sheets." Can I interpret that as a criticism of EM? In relation to the other thread discussing EM, my 1st grader gets it usually the first time through the spiral. "Is this it?" she's asked after a home link that takes 2 minutes. Of course, I now can recall Megan really struggling already w/EM at this point.

-- KathyIggy - 30 Oct 2006

It is shocking. SHOCKING.

We need a revolution in public education in this country.

I was talking to my chum who has one child classified, by dint of constant effort on her part to keep him classified (he probably scores at 27th percentile, which means the school is constantly trying to declassify him).

Well, this kid has a knack for math.

He has a knack for math, and he loves math.

Are they developing this talent??

I had him in my Singapore Math class for awhile, and I helped him on that hideous Unit Six test Christopher got a 39 on way back when (end of 4th grade).

This kid has the right stuff.

He did great in Singapore Math, and he got a score in the 80s on the Unit test (I believe it was the same test - the test that comes with the SRA curriculum...)

I would be push-push-pushing on the math with this kid 24-7.

Not to overwhelm him, but to constantly give him the message: this is what you can do. Other stuff is hard right now, and you're going to learn that stuff, too!

But I would be working continually to make sure he had this one realm where he could shine (and if that meant he doesn't go into accelerated math, but stays in Phase 3 and is the best in the class, GREAT.)

absolutely not

this concept doesn't even come up

he's just one big blob of Needs Remediation

(btw, that's NOT the way his sped teacher sees him).

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2006

I agree that the sped teachers often DO see the potential in these kids, and do care about them, but other people in the system (and in society) don't see the potential, and can't get beyond the label. There should be a systematic effort to develop these kids' strengths, but it doesn't happen.

I hate being such a critic of our school because we have a lot of great people working there who really care about kids. For the most part, they are kind, compassionate and hard-working. The school is also the center of our community.

But the system is so screwed up. First, they have a math curriculum (Everyday Math) that is inappropriate for slow learners. Research has shown that spiraling curricula are especially bad for weak math students because the kids don't get enough practice.

Then, to make matters worse, there's no remediation. Because of the spiral, slow learners have all kind of gaps in their skills, and no systematic effort is made to fill them in. At best, the slow learners are classifed and get some pre-teaching and re-teaching of the stuff the class is CURRENTLY WORKING ON. There's no attempt to go back and fill in the foundation.

So, it's up to the parents. What if the parents don't have the time, inclination, education or money to fill in the gaps? Well, to use my new vocabulary word, the kid is "SOL." In our district, there is a significant achievement gap between the "non-economically disadvantaged" and the "economically disadvantaged."

Recently, I've spoken to a number of people who work in special ed, and they agree that the situation is problematic. Most of them will not defend Everyday Math.

-- RobynW - 02 Nov 2006

"Because of the spiral, slow learners have all kind of gaps in their skills, and no systematic effort is made to fill them in."

As far as I can tell, there is no method or requirement to achieve mastery at any point. (I know it doesn't happen in my son's school.) They give tests, but apparently kids can get to fifth grade without knowing their times table.

I think they assume that the spiral will close the gap automatically. The spiral is not steep, but it's not a mastery-based curriculum. The goal is conceptual understanding. When the going gets tough, they go on to the next loop of the spiral.

You don't really notice any problems early on. Most schools and parents know that their kids need to master basic adds, subtracts, multiplies, and divides. The big thing schools like to do nowadays is to enlist help from the parents to make sure the kids know these facts. (i.e. do their job for them) Everyone gets these notes telling them to work with their kids at home. They just don't want to do it at school.

The real problems begin in 5th and 6th grades when you begin to use previously mastered (or not) basic skills on new material. EM still spirals along not forcing mastery. This results in poor understandings of fractions, decimals and percents.

-- SteveH - 02 Nov 2006

But they have such wonderful portfolios so why bother with the facts.

My son's teacher emailed that my son would be bringing home a portfolio of finished products for the first quarter for my review. They have been working on descriptive writing and word choice.

I am scared to look. If he isn't mastering math, I shudder to think what he is learning in writing.

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 02 Nov 2006

"I shudder to think what he is learning in writing."

I agree. I know math and science, and most of what I know about writing I learned after college by brute force. I looked at the recommendations in the Favorite Books section and there is little there for teaching kids to write. Any new ideas or recommendations?

Our school uses Writer's Express, but my son's teacher is only using it as a supplement. She talks more about different genres of writing, idea webs (or something like that), SCOPE, book circles, and peer review. (although one paper went through his review, peer review, and teacher review and it still had spelling, grammar, and clarity mistakes) It seems like she is focusing more on process than the hard work of editing and getting the results just right. My son seems to want to just follow a step-by-step process rather than really think about what he is writing. He doesn't read his writing as if he is someone else. For a given size report, he can't figure out what should be included and what should be left out.

Is there any resource that breaks down writing into small tasks and simple concepts?

-- SteveH - 02 Nov 2006

Writing seems to be another area where the "new" way of thinking is to teach the foundational skills (spelling, vocabulary, grammar) in an almost implicit way (if at all--invented spelling, anyone?), but teach structural concepts that most of us didn't learn until middle school or later in a very deliberate, explicit way, almost as though these concepts are the actual foundational skills for which all writing is built upon.

It was reactive teaching for me all the way over the last few years and I'm glad I did it. My one son hates the structural exercises he's assigned, but he's rock solid on grammar due to starting him in the second grade. It isn't that I think that the exercises involving inferencing, transitions, etc. are bad, but they seem out of order, and so confuse a lot of kids. My son aces any grammar quizzes because he doesn't have to think about it. Other kids are stuggling with even finding the verbs of a sentence. I feel like he can now concentrate on more complicated forms of grammar. It is much easier to tell him why a sentence doesn't make sense because he is very clear on his 8 parts of speech and parts of a sentence. Grade school is a very easy time to systematically teach basic grammar.

This is when a good book on classical homeschooling (like Susan Wise Baur's The Well-Trained Mind) can really help. But I know of no complete curriculum out there.

Hake (which produces Saxon)probally has the closest thing to covering it all that I've seen. But it is very big and comprehensive, so I've only used it occasionally because by middle school time is a real problem. I'm also not sure what it has for grade school.

-- SusanS - 02 Nov 2006

We've just begun to use Rod & Staff's English series. I'm impressed with both the grammar and writing instruction.

We've just begun learning about paragraph writing. One of the exercises has the student identify the topic sentence and then find the sentences which DON'T belong in the paragraph. I don't think I've ever seen that before. There seems to be alot of discussion and instruction on what a paragraph is before a student is asked to write their own.

BTW, I'm really impressed with ALL of R&S textbooks. The ?mennonites? that use this get an excellent education.

-- NicksMama - 02 Nov 2006

I am scared to look.

I haven't read this thread yet (lots going on around here - things are hopping) - but I just saw this sentence & started laughing.

you and me both !

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2006

Catherine

Thank you for KTM! I'm learning and laughing as I read the posts.

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 03 Nov 2006

Paula

goodness, what a nice compliment!

thank you!

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2006

One of the exercises has the student identify the topic sentence and then find the sentences which DON'T belong in the paragraph. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

oh, that's an interesting idea

a "same / different" approach

offhand, I like that

very much, in fact

I tried Ben Franklin's technique of cutting up paragraphs and having Christopher put them back together, which I think is probably a great idea (seeing as how it worked for Ben Franklin & all)

But he was too young for it at the time. It's quite difficult.

Finding the sentence that doesn't belong is a nice stepping stone.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2006

Catherine,

Your most welcome for the compliment! I found your site when I was on a fact finding mission. How could my son get to third grade without knowing basic math facts? How could he be placed in a remedial class without my knowledge?

Imagine going to school to meet your son's teacher...you have a smile on your face...you're excited...then you are greeted by not only the teacher, but two special ed aides. This must be some mistake you think.

When you question the teacher on why he is in the class, she tells you he has trouble focusing and following directions. Where does he sit academically? Silence from the teacher. Are you saying there is a problem? I mean, not being able to follow directions/trouble focusing is a big deal, right? That's strange because his second grade report card failed to address that.

Oh, and he can't recall basic math facts consistently? Once again...report card failed to show that. No one mentioned he was having a problem. I mean there were parent/teacher conferences...I did ask questions. Everything is just fine...just fine.

That is my scenario and that is why I read your site. Hoping to find out what I missed. Does he have ADD? Slow Learner? Working memory problem? If so, which route do I take to get him assessed? Do I truly want to have him labeled?

Is it the curriculum or how the material has been taught? I found out his math curriculum is TERC. The instruction is differentiated instruction. The report card is developmental in nature so you have no idea where your child sits academically.

I'm learning by the seat of my pants, but I'm learning! I owe a lot to you and your posters...some of them I'v e-mailed with questions and received advice.

I've learned more from this site in a few short weeks than I've learned from any of my son's teachers. Sad, but true.

Keep up the great work! Oh, my son is now enrolled in KUMON and his confidence is soaring!

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 04 Nov 2006

KUMON really helps with confidence. Megan now says Math is her favorite subject and her teacher has remarked her computational skills are very strong. I'm a strong believer in the incremental way KUMON presents material. Megan's sped class is using a writing program (need to get specific info from the teacher, I know it's materials she copied herself) which reminds me of KUMON--it goes step by step, progressing toward writing coherent sentences, then paragraphs, then essays. Previously, all these "cute" ideas like word webs and graphic organizers were presented, but without direct instruction on how to use them to write.

-- KathyIggy - 06 Nov 2006

How could my son get to third grade without knowing basic math facts? How could he be placed in a remedial class without my knowledge?

good lord

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2006

Paula

HANG IN THERE.

NEVER, EVER, let your child's "problems" be naturalized.

Have you read the Galen Alessi post?

I'll find the link.

Because of the Irvington Parents Forum, I'm now hearing other parents stories - they are so upsetting.

They're similar to yours, only worse. Some awful, awful things. (Can't write about them - these things really are confidential - so at some point I'll figure out how to describe these events globally.)

What I see, so clearly, is that all schools "naturalize" the status quo.

Things are a certain way, and everyone, parents included, assumes things are the way they are because it's natural (or biological or whatever).

Everyone thinks this way.

Add to this the fact that schools, by law and by custom, are responsible only for inputs (curriculum, teachers, etc.), not outputs (student learning), and everything is weighted against the child.

If the child isn't learning, it's something about the child.

NONE of this is done by "bad people."

I see so clearly that in education there are no bad people, there are bad ideas and bad practices.

Bad ideas and bad practices that have gone on so long no one sees them as bad.

They seem natural.

For most parents, surviving the public schools means "Questioning Authority."

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2006

KUMON is fantastic - and SAXON MATH is amazing.

I basically feel love for that curriculum now, given what I've already seen it do for Christian.

My advice to you would be to adopt your own curriculum at home now (only because KUMON was designed to be supplemental).

Singapore Math is fantastic, but given your situation I'd probably just get the Saxon books and go that route. (I don't know how confident you are of your math knowledge and skills - if you're confident, then Singapore is great. When I first started with Christopher I didn't have much time and I wasn't confident enough to choose Singapore.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2006

I see we've got questions about ADHD, testing your kid for ADHD etc. - I'll read later & chime in if I have thoughts no one else has brought up -

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2006

Catherine,

Thank you for your encouraging comments! I certainly don't feel my son's teachers either past or present are bad. Your opinion "bad ideas and bad practices" seems more accurate to describe the educational system.

KUMON is fantastic! I don't feel too confident in my math knowledge and skills so Saxon sounds like the way to go. I've read about Singapore and it sounds great.

As for as questions about ADHD, I'm still weighing my options.

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 07 Nov 2006

Hi Paula,

Isn't this a great site?!

I had an acquaintance at work who accidentally discovered 10 or so years ago that her son's problems could be explained by ADHD. What happened was that when he was 10 or 11 (IIRC) she gave him some pseudoephedrine because he had a cold and she noticed that some of his symptoms improved suddenly and dramatically.

She was smart enough to put two and two together since pseudoephedrine is a stimulant and I guess she must have known something about Ritalin.

She was so thrilled by the positive changes and so proud of her son's accomplishments once he was put on Ritalin that she told everyone this story.

-- SusanJ - 07 Nov 2006

Hi Susan,

Yes, it is a great site!

It is wonderful that Ritalin helped your acquaintance's son. I have a friend whose nephew did not have the same positive results with the drug. It turned him into a zombie!

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 07 Nov 2006

Hi Paula,

That's odd and sad about someone being turned into a zombie on Ritalin.

Since Ritalin is very fast-acting, one would think that a good doctor would be able to tell after just a few doses whether it was helping or hurting. If it works it sort of confirms the diagnosis; it if doesn't work that could be a clue as to what the real problem might be.

I've seen the good and bad sides of psychotropic drugs but they can be life-saving.

-- SusanJ - 07 Nov 2006

I'll just go on and jump in and say that (before someone else does) that drugs should be a last option.

But that being said, I have some experience in the Ritalin area. After my son's first grade teacher told me that he had basically lost an entire year from lack of focus, we had him evaluated by a pediatric psychiatrist with a reputation for not recommending drugs. I was sure he was going to tell me that my son was fine (everyone else was wrong) or that he was borderline. Well, he looked at me and said that he was not borderline and that Ritalin was going to change his life. I could have cried. This guy had a rep for staring at parents and saying no to drugs.

Anyway, I told that story to get to this one. I was very concerned about the dosage and had a lot of back and forth with his teacher over the year. I told her that I wanted him to be focused, but not "flat." We both agreed that his basic personality had to be intact, but hopefully with better focus.

After a week or so on around 10 mg. I remember her telling me that she thought he was too flat and so we cut back to 5 mg. It took another few weeks before we decided that we had the right dosage. We really went back and forth to make sure it was the right drug and the right dosage. I'm not sure every parent or teacher realizes that that is what it takes. They just give up if it seems wrong.

As he gotten older (high school) he's aware that it's only a tool. He still has to make the effort. It just gives him a leg up. And yes, it really did change his life.

I think it's so important to have a full evaluation by a specialist and to have plenty of evidence that the behavior exists at school, at home, everywhere, not just in one place. I was really helped by Dr. Larry Silver's books (The Misunderstood Child and a parent's guide to understanding ADHD.) He doesn't advocate or demonize drugs. He just gives you a lot of info.

Also, Ritalin given for the wrong diagnosis can be a mess. A kid with bi-polar symptons often looks like ADHD. Ritalin given under those circumstances can be a disaster. Unfortunately, the blame goes to the drug rather than the fact that the kid was misdiagnosed.

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded. That was just my personal take on it. If your child is not suffering (no friends, bad grades) then you have time to figure this all out.

-- SusanS - 07 Nov 2006

I certainly don't feel my son's teachers either past or present are bad. Your opinion "bad ideas and bad practices" seems more accurate to describe the educational system.

That is absolutely it.

Are there ANY "bad people" who choose teaching as a profession?

There'd have to be very, very few.

The problems are systemic.

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Nov 2006

I still haven't read (lots going on around here - my mom is back in the hospital; this is shaping up to be a hard time).

However, I think I noticed Susan S making a point I want to stress: parents are always freaked out by the prospect of giving medications to their children.

My STRONG advice is: View all medical treatments as 'experimental.'

If a medication doesn't work, you'll know pretty quickly, and you'll stop the medication.

Period.

You're done.

If it does work, you may decide this isn't the route you want to go anyway.

With physicians - and this is the model I want to see our schools move to - all decisions are in the parent's hand.

No physician "pushes" you to use drugs; I've never seen it happen.

Child psychiatrists provide expert counsel and wisdom based in years of clinical experience.

They do not give "doctor's orders."

When we first saw one of our most beloved psychiatrists in L.A. he said, "I'm all in favor of medication trials with these kids."

He was talking about autistic kids; no one had any idea how to treat them medically and most people thought you shouldn't treat them medically.

He said the phrase "medication trials" and I got it.

I had a child with a severe problem; this doctor was going to try to see if he could help medically.

He tried, and he did help.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYONE ELSE'S CHILD HAS TO GO ON PERMANENT MEDICATION BECAUSE OTHER KIDS DO!

YOU'RE IN CHARGE!

You're in charge, and your doctors will expect you to be in charge.

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Nov 2006

It is wonderful that Ritalin helped your acquaintance's son. I have a friend whose nephew did not have the same positive results with the drug. It turned him into a zombie!

First off, researchers are starting to figure this stuff out. (No time to go into details, but Eric Hollander has discussed it with me.)

When a child turns into a zombie on ritalin, that may well mean that he has a different "mix" of symptoms & underlying neurochemistry.

In other words: "zombie" is actually a diagnostic clue.

Second, Susan is absolutely right.

There are NO cookbooks with these meds.

You have to "find the window": too little & the med doesn't work; too much and the med also doesn't work.

more free advice: You must yourself become a medication expert for your child.

We've been having a horrific time with Andrew.

So has his teacher.

We're seeing one of the most brilliant clinician/researchers out there - Eric Hollander.

But it was Ed who figured out Andrew's Risperdal dose was too high!

The parent is the person with all the direct observational data.

You have to pay attention; you have to take notes (in the beginning, at least); you have to be building expertise.

One last thing: for us, our original medication trials with Jimmy were a nightmare.

They were harrowing.

I'm guessing that would no longer be the case (and I haven't heard of it being the case for ADHD kids.)

No one else was doing what we were doing, and the field disapproved. And there was no help anywhere, no advice -

Jimmy completely lost his mind on some of the meds we tried - usually because the dose was way too high (but who knew??? He turned out to be one of those super-responders. We could give him literally one drop of Prozac and see a treatment effect).

He was our only child, he was very challenged, and the drugs made him much, much worse - it was a horror.

IT WAS WORTH EVERY MINUTE.

Jimmy's meds saved his life.

Period.

It was the meds and nothing else.

I'M NOT PROSELYTIZING ANY OTHER PARENT TO USE MEDS.

BUT, they can be lifesaving, AND the parent makes the decisions.

Getting information doesn't mean you're committing your child to a lifetime of medication.

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Nov 2006

Getting information doesn't mean you're committing your child to a lifetime of medication.

How very true. It's a hard decision to make initially. But it's a trial and error kind of thing. Meg has been on anxiety meds on and off since 1st grade. After awhile, one med seemed to lose its effectiveness. So we switched to another. We tried several meds for attentional issues--they had no effect so we stopped those. We took a vacation from the anxiety meds last summer. A couple months later, once the meds had gotten out of her system, behavior and emotional outbursts/anxiety came roaring back. So we're back on meds again. No doctor or teacher has ever pushed meds. You just keep trying to see what works.

-- KathyIggy - 07 Nov 2006

It's a hard decision to make initially. But it's a trial and error kind of thing. Meg has been on anxiety meds on and off since 1st grade.

It took me years to learn that, but it's true.

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Nov 2006

I think going to the doctor feels like a "fatal step."

And it probably feels that way because, for a lot of us, it is a fatal step - for us it was certainly the acknowledgment that Jimmy had severe brain-based problems; they weren't going away; etc.

But that was Jimmy.

If you force yourself to view an appointment with a child psychiatrist as a "consult," it feels different.

-- CatherineJohnson - 07 Nov 2006

Whoa, do I have a lot to weigh in with on this topic. Especially right now. Back with it later.

Basically -- very short story -- I back everything Catherine says, particularly the business about becoming an expert on meds yourself.

I also have Carolyn's tried-and-true-very-slow-approach-to-trying-meds.

-- CarolynJohnston - 07 Nov 2006

Carolyn

yup, you definitely have to write something about this

parents with any kind of autistic kids are in one of the "expert" categories when it comes to meds, primarily because no one knows much about it yet

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Nov 2006

Paula

If you're around, here are the Galen Alessi posts:

whose fault is it?

Engelmann on the Galen Alessi study

Pamela Darr Wright on Galen Alessi study

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Nov 2006

Catherine,

I've read the above and will get back with you later on my thoughts.

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 08 Nov 2006

Paula

The important thing to remember is that this phenomenon is true at every level - it's true of kids who don't get referred to school psychologists, too.

When there's any kind of problem, the entire focus is on the child: what is wrong with the child?

A friend of mine had a Team Meeting last year because her child's grades were slipping.

The entire forcus of the meeting was on what might be going on with the child.

He'd been seeming tired; did he have a virus?

etc.

At that time, the mom agreed; she was still thinking the issue had to be something with her child, not something with the school (or something with both).

We all just naturally think this way, because this is the way it's always been.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Nov 2006

One of the most revelatory moments I've had was hearing from my good friend whose children are at a terrific private school she can't afford.

They test the kids several times a year, then meet with the parents and go over the results.

They tell you which test scores are their "fault" (they didn't teach the content well, and many of the kids fell down in those areas) and which are the kid's "fault" (i.e. that child for some reason had a problem with that content while the other kids did fine).

If the problem is on their side they tell parents what they plan to do to fix it.

If the problem is on the child's side, they immediately provide remediation.

-- CatherineJohnson - 08 Nov 2006

Catherine,

Thank you for all your insight. I feel relieved after reading your comments.

First, this game is new to me. I was tripping through a field of flowers thinking my son was getting a wonderful education at this terrific school. Only to find out he somehow manages to reach third grade without knowing very little math and he has focusing/directional/reasurrance issues.

How does this happen while maintaining constant contact with his teachers? I checked his homework every day. If I saw he had a problem with his class work, we went over it. I talked with his teachers on the phone, in person and through email. Constantly, I asked them if they felt he was having trouble with content or behavioral issues to let me know. Nothing. Not one word.

The reason for my concern stemmed from the fact that my son did have occupational therapy for sensory integration issues at two years of age. However, after moving from New York to Virginia, he was re-evaluated and services were denied. In fact, at the IEP meeting, the principal turned to me and asked me why was I there? She said he could begin kindergarten in the fall.

I certainly felt that cognitively he was fine. I had had my doubts previously, but after the IEP meeting I felt redeemed. My husband and I thought we had dodged a bullet.

The bottom line is I do not trust the school to assess him academically or psychologically. I do blame them for their total lack of regard for my child. Some of the comments from his second grade teacher and the principal warrant this belief.

So he will be re-evaluated by a private psychologist and I will go from there.

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 09 Nov 2006

I talked with my sister yesterday about the learning problems her son (who graduated with a degree in computer science) had when he was growing up. The teachers knew he had learning difficulties so they started to expect less from him. They allowed him to fall asleep in the back of the class. My sister learned very quickly that she had to fight for their son and work really hard at home. No excuses.

They never took their son in for an evaluation. This isn't necessarily a good thing, but the downside of too much evaluation is that the child begins to think that there is something really wrong, and the parents hope for some magic pill or external solution. The parents and kids don't do the work. This is what happened with my other nephew. He never graduated from high school, although he is quite bright.

My sister and her husband decided that it was up to them to figure out what the problem was and come up with a solution. The solution was a lot of work at home and no excuses. My sister describes it as his brain had to go down around the block to get to the answer. There was no direct path. She figured that by sheer hard work, they could help his brain get very good at doing this.

She now refers to it as a roadblock to learning that they had to get around. They had to rewire his brain. She doesn't think that anyone else could have done what they did. After a while, it became easier for him to learn things. The added benefit was that he learned how to work really hard. He now tells me (with satisfaction) that in the later grades when the "smart" kids gave up, he kept chugging along.

-- SteveH - 09 Nov 2006

Steve,

I remember you mentioning your nephews in a previous post.

I have told my son that he is going to have to work harder, but we could do it together and actually have fun while accomplishing it. Last year was not a good year for him. I'm afraid the work was not done, and I, as his parent, failed to notice he was struggling. Only this year did I truly assess that yes, there might be a problem. I have extreme guilt over this, but I am willing to do the work that needs to be done.

At the same time, I would like to see if there is a problem developmentally.

I talked with a parent whose son was in my son's second grade class. He was recently diagnosed with ADHD. He was tested privately because the parents did not realize services were available through the school. She said it was a rough year for her son. She seemed relieved when I told her I thought he was a bright kid.

I have read about waiting until the third grade to have children assessed with learning disabilities using the discrepancy formula. If there might be a problem, why wait? Can't ADHD have a pronounced affect on IQ and ability?

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 09 Nov 2006

Can't ADHD have a pronounced affect on IQ and ability?

Oh yes it can. Absolutely. Most special ed teachers know this and don't put much stock in any IQ tests given out in terms of what they will try to teach the child. They know that it's usually an underestimate of what the child can do.

On the other hand, IQ tests do a pretty good job of revealing how a kid will do in a standard American classroom setting. On that, they are pretty darn accurate except for maybe gifted IQs. From what I've read, the farther above 140 a kid goes, the more difficulty he's going to have without intervention of some kind.

My LD/ADHD son's IQ jumped 20 points from Kindergarten to third grade. I'm sure he just had a bad day on the one and a much better one on the other. He was also on drugs by the second one and could probably focus a lot better.

If they had used the first one to assess him, I can't imagine what they would have taught him.

-- SusanS - 09 Nov 2006

Susan,

To have your son assessed, did you take him to a neuropsychologist? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what IQ test was your son given and when? Was it the CogAT^??

Thanks for the comments!

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 09 Nov 2006

I was tripping through a field of flowers thinking my son was getting a wonderful education at this terrific school. Only to find out he somehow manages to reach third grade without knowing very little math and he has focusing/directional/reasurrance issues.

I was told, by a person who knew, that this was happening here in Irvington at the end of 5th grade.

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Nov 2006

My sister describes it as his brain had to go down around the block to get to the answer.

I love it!

Happens to me sometimes.

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Nov 2006

Paula

Just more general support.....

Don't worry about the guilt; every parent has guilt about everything (it's true!)

I've had endless guilt about everything to do with my kids' autism....

I had a clinical depression after Jimmy's diagnosis, and when I saw a psychiatrist I told her how terribly guilt I felt about my denial of the problem, my refusal to take him for early intervention, etc.

She said, "You did the best you could with what you had to work with" - something like that.

She managed to convey to me, in one sentence, the idea that, yes, I had been in denial, probably for longer than other parents are in denial.

BUT here I was in her office suffering from clinical depression caused by the diagnosis: given my vulnerability I did what I could do given the fact that some part of me knew a clinical depression was in the offing....

I don't know if that makes sense, exactly: she was saying that my own vulnerabilities and frailties had to be part of my "calculations" in making good and not-so-good decisions.

Parents do the best they can given the circumstances, which include their own makeup, background, and life history.

You, Paula, did the best you could at that time and that's the only thing that can matter.

Guilt is good (!) - it tells us what we want to do better in the future.

But the future is where it's all going to happen for our kids, so that's what we must all stay focused on.

You'll do great.

As you go along you'll test things out, read, talk to people, absorb information and develop your intuition.

Your son will be fine!

I realize I'm saying this to a complete stranger, but I've seen it happen too many times not to say it!

-- CatherineJohnson - 10 Nov 2006

Paula,

I believe in both cases it was the WISC III(Weschler's?). I'll look it up again if you need me to.

Our grade school also used Stanford Binet and Otis Lennin. At the middle school they use the Woodcock-Johnson, which I like because it breaks down their strengths even further. I felt vindicated by that test because I felt strongly about some of his strengths, but couldn't prove it in any way. The Woodcock-Johnson had a couple of his visual patterning scores over a hundred with even one "above average." (We special ed parents never take a 3-digit score for granted.)

Both times the test was done by the school psychologists. He was at a special ed preschool, so they did one at age 5 to finally figure out what he would be doing when he got to grade school. That is a devastating IEP, btw. They stop saying the nice words like "delay" and finally get to the word "disability." I wanted to go to sleep for a week after that one.

I remember not even seeing or understanding that the first one was actually an IQ test. Probably because the numbers had him into borderline IQ and even mild retardation. When the pediatric psychiatrist asked to see all of his records, I pulled it out and looked it over. I remember staring at it in shock and looking at my husband saying, "Is this what I think it is? Is this right?" When the psychiatrist looked at and then saw my horrified expression, he very calmly said, "I believe this to be an underestimation."

This was the moment I stopped being ignorant and started reading.

The funny thing about the title of this thread (Reaction Range) is that as parents we really see the top range clearly. Unfortunately, they will often perform at any given time at the bottom.

For my son, his performance at this range will be the difference between independent living and holding down a job, or guardianship and dependency.(And as Catherine and I laugh about, because we have to, the choice between us living forever or not, since we can never die.)

-- SusanS - 10 Nov 2006

Paula

Everything will be okay with your son. It may not be how you imagined it -- but it will be okay.

I had a clinical depression too, after my son's diagnosis really sunk in.

IQ scores can be misleading. Take a look at the subscores in each category and see if you can see what's going on from those. My son had the WISC-III and WISC-IV, and the WISC-IV report was much more useful than the WISC-III just because they organized scores a little bit differently. A low score in just one area (in my son's case it was 'processing speed', which is heavily affected when you have a severe attention problem) can pull down an aggregate score (in our case, performance IQ) dramatically.

In bright kids with PDD, the scores flop around a lot in the early years. They're not supposed to -- but they do.

-- CarolynJohnston - 11 Nov 2006

Susan,

My son's CogAt^? scores indicate a high average in nonverbal. He scored a 129. The verbal score was only 102 and the quantitative a 104. The clue is his ability profile which was a 6E(N+).

If you read this profile, it states that a child with this profile should be carefully examined. These scores show extreme differences in strengths and weakness.

However, recently he was tested at Hungtington Learning Center where he took the CAT5 Form A and scored in the 98 percentile in vocabulary and a 93 in Reading Comprehension. He was not given the math section because he couldn't do it.

The math Placement Exam indicated he did not master any basic concepts. He can add, subtract, do place value and count money. Telling time is difficult. There are many gaps.

What worried me was the Slosson Visual-Motor Performance Test because you could tell where he just fell apart. He started out fine, but then the drawings became erractic. It was almost like he just fell asleep drawing the figures. His scored was a standard score of 82. I think the tester said he should have scored an 84.

On the Wold Sentence Copying Test, he did not meet the goal. I see that he does have trouble copying sentences from the board at school so this was not a big surprise. His drawings look like a preschooler drew them. His handwriting is inconsistent. His claswork is neat when taking his time and messy when in a hurry which seems to be most of the time.

I had forgotten that right before entering kindergarten, my son was tested on the Differential Ability Scales and scored a 112 on nonverbal and a 109 in verbal. His overall general cognitive ability was 114.

What does all this mean? Can the school use the CogAT^? scores to place children?

--PaulaV

-- PaulaV - 11 Nov 2006

Paula,

I'm not sure what the CogAt^? is exactly or how the scores relate to, say, the WISC ones Carolyn and I were talking about. If a 129 on anything relates to a 129 on the WISC or Otis-Lennin, then you are looking at borderline gifted. Most schools seem to recognize 130 as the line for gifted, but the 120s have also been included. (We have a gifted academy near hear that has the cut-off at 120.) You should definitely ask the principle or the test taker what this all means.

IQ scores are supposed to cluster. There shouldn't be a big spread (8 pts. or more) between anything. On the WISC there are subtests that have names such as "Coding." They go up to 19 (or 20, I can't remember.) There should not be a big spread between those numbers. If there is, you might be looking at a learning disability.

Assuming the first score of 129 and 102 relates in any way to the Performance and Verbal scores of the WISC, then the sprawl of 27 pts. is pretty big, and even though 102 is considered "average," next to the other number it would be considered a deficit.

There was a case with a kid who had a 128 on his Perfomance IQ, but a 108 on his verbal. His overall numbered was around 115 (I can't remember exactly, so I know that's not correct, but close) The psychologist's point was how to approach teaching this child. Does one assume from the overall score that he has an above average IQ, or should teacher be aware that, in fact, he has a "superior" intellect with a deficit.

My personal experience with this kind of thing comes from the experiences of a friend of mine. Her child had a lot of frustration in school and was being placed in lower level classes at times. When he took the Otis-Lennin he completely bombed. The parents were horrified, but the teachers tried to reassure them that they knew the kid was bright and not to worry about it. They insisted on another test, so he took the WISC-III and lo, and behold, he scored a 145 on the Performance one and a 105 on the Verbal.

The good thing is that they now knew how to advocate for him. The school actually gave him an IEP even though a 105 is considered average. It wasn't average for him. He is presently getting services at the middle school under gifted/LD. The parents also enrolled him low pressure gifted classes and his behavior problems lessened considerably.

He still struggles when teachers can't figure out why he has so much trouble with writing when he's so bright, but he has a special ed teacher who runs in and stands up for him in these situations.

Anyway, I hope that helps a little. I'm no expert and I've forgotten a lot of what I had read years ago.

-- SusanS - 11 Nov 2006

What does all this mean? Can the school use the CogAT^?? scores to place children?

Our school used the Otis-Lennin to help placement a few years back, but I'm not sure what each school does. That's a good question to ask them because parents are often surprised by where their kids end up.

-- SusanS - 11 Nov 2006

Susan,

Thanks for all of your assistance!

-- PaulaV - 11 Nov 2006

I hope they don't use IQ scores to place children. I think I read somewhere that IQ scores are not reliable in children under the age of 7. Also, anxiety, inattention, lack of motivation, and depression can also lower IQ scores, and make them unreliable as indicators of a child's intelligence and potential.

-- RobynW - 12 Nov 2006

Paula,

You sound like you're on the right track and that you caught this problem early. It is so much better to see the problems in grade school.

I hope they don't use IQ scores to place children.

I think some of these tests are actually "achievement" tests, not simply IQ (like the WISC ones) But people read them like they represent IQ potential sometimes. If I can dig out my book on all of this I will try to be more specific about which test measures what. I may have been misleading you since I'm not totally clear which tests are purely IQ and which involve scholastic achievement.

When I took my youngest son to a private psychologist for testing he gave him the WISC-III, but also a scholastic one to see where he was academically (I can't remember which one, but I can always look it up). His point was that the achievement score (percentile) should be close to the IQ score. For instance, on the WISC test this son was in the 98th percentile pretty much across the board, with a subtest or two being 99th+. The scholastic scores were more in the 90th percentile. His point was that the school needed to teach him at his level so that both percentiles would be closer together.

My reason for even going to the psychologist was so I'd be able to advocate for him if the school refused to teach him properly. I also wanted to be ready to rip him out of the school and put him into a private one if I had to. As it happened, I didn't have to do anything because they were on board with all of it.

-- SusanS - 12 Nov 2006

Susan,

I'm not sure the CogAT^? was used to place my son. It is more likely based on his second grade teacher's recommendation. Whatever the case, I would like to know the best way he can learn. The only way to figure this out is to go to a psychologist.

My burning question is how can I tell this is a good school for my children? (I know I am getting off subject, but I can't help it.) All the psychologists in the world aren't going to change questionable curriculum. I say "questionable" because it is hard to figure out exactly what it is. There is a math and science textbook. Period.

Social studies consists of my third grader glueing a worksheet inside a composition notebook. The notebook is full of illustrations. I told my son no more drawings. Just write down the facts...who, what, when, and where. I could careless if he can draw a map of Spain or Christopher Columbus.

Grammar is non-existent and spelling varies from week to week.

I am mentally exhausted trying to figure it all out! Tired. Beyond tired.

-- PaulaV - 13 Nov 2006

"I say 'questionable' because it is hard to figure out exactly what it is."

My son is in fifth grade and I'm still trying to figure it out. Amazingly, most lower schools do not have a specific curriculum to hand out to parents.

At the beginning of 4th grade, I asked the social studies teacher what they were teaching, since social studies is a rather vague term. "Geography." OK, what about history? "Sixth grade." What, exactly is taught (books used, content covered, skills required) in these courses? "Well, if you have any specific questions, I would be glad to answer them." OK, when do you start teaching history? "Sixth grade, I think, but you will have to talk to that teacher."

I know what to do about math, but I am struggling with the other subjects. I don't worry too much about science as long as they focus on content knowledge and not too much on hands-on play learning. But for grammar, spelling, vocabulary, reading comprehension, and writing, I am struggling. As with math, I find that I can't leave anything up to the school. In fact, you have to be especially careful about good grades. My son got A's in English, but only average scores on the CPT-4 test.

-- SteveH - 13 Nov 2006

"I am mentally exhausted trying to figure it all out! Tired. Beyond tired."

PaulaV^?--hang in there! I know you are, but I am just trying to give you reassurance that you are on the right track. Whatever the outcome with your son (is it the curriculum or is it something else), you have discovered early on that something may be amiss, which is half the battle.

Personally, I am appalled by the description of how the school handled your son's placement. I don't say that to fuel your anger or irritation, but simply to acknowledge that your feelings were (are) real and justified.

-- KarenA - 13 Nov 2006

Steve,

Yes, I too, feel I can't leave anything up to the school.

For instance, I volunteered in my kindergartener's classroom Friday. As I helped with one art project, I looked over at the teacher working with other children classifying leaves. She had them classify the leaves big, medium and small. She asked them to sound out the words when they wrote them on their graph paper. The kids wrote medym and smol. She did not correct them. When I asked the teacher's aide about that, this is what she had to say.

"Well, I'm from the old school, and I have to tell you when they first started with teaching language this way, I did not like it. However, you would be amazed at how quickly they catch on. They learn to spell correctly by January."

I told her I had been correcting my third grader's classwork assignments since kindergarten. I take a red marker and underline each misspelled word. Then we look the word up in the dictionary. She seemed unphased by my comment.

When my husband was teaching Trident Navigation in the navy, he commented he would have never taught his students the wrong way to do anything. Can you imagine teaching an 18-year-old the wrong material while he is learning about a nuclear submarine? The results could be disastrous!

-- PaulaV - 13 Nov 2006

Karen,

Thanks for the support! I am hanging in there! Both my sons will be fine because I'll see do it that they are.

Any suggestions on a good phonics program?

-- PaulaV - 13 Nov 2006

"She had them classify the leaves big, medium and small."

My son had to do the same thing in Kindergarten! He had to select the different size leaves, put them on a piece of paper, and label them small, medium, and large. I remember this because he got marked wrong for large! The leaf was not large. Of course, he knew what large meant and his teacher knew that he knew what large meant. My son didn't put a large leaf on the paper because it wouldn't fit.

As for spelling, I think I still have some papers where the teacher wrote "Good kids spelling on them".

"She seemed unphased by my comment."

Yeah. We parents are an annoyance. I always like the smile, head nod, and do nothing.

"Can you imagine teaching an 18-year-old the wrong material while he is learning about a nuclear submarine?"

Can you imagine the students "discovering" navigation? Can you imagine a high school based on group discovery learning?

I think all of this is discovery learning for parents. Year after year, a new crop of parents goes through this same learning process. What I find amazing is that nothing changes. The schools and teachers seem to stonewall, the parents discover that they have to deal with it themselves (at home, tutoring, or off at another school), their kids move on, and then another crop of green parents come along. Schools are saved by the fact that kids and parents move on up and out.

There is also a problem with opinion. Some parents love public schools. They love the idea of public schools. This is encouraged by teacher-parent organizations and other liaison groups. Parents buy into the idea that the solution is simply more money and smaller class size. They like the idea of mixing kids of all abilities together, and they don't question the schools' ideas of discovery or group learning. Many don't like the idea of tracking even if it means that many kids are completely unchallenged. The schools are working on the problem (differentiated learning) and all they need are more teacher training and smaller class sizes.

The feeling is that parents can either be part of the (their) solution or part of the problem. Many parents just go away and wash their hands of the problem. The remaining parents who want better curricula and higher expectations are outnumbered. They just try to do the best they can at home.

Schools have two opposing forces and they can't have both. Full inclusion (tracking by age) and differentiated instruction. It doesn't work, unless you define differentiated instruction as enrichment, rather than acceleration. It really comes down to a difference of opinion over what constitutes a good basic education. And they feel perfectly comfortable with imposing their opinions on all kids.

-- SteveH - 13 Nov 2006

Re: phonics--I just ordered the "Explode the Code" books for my first grader. Lots of homeschooling forums say good things about them. This purchase was driven by the recently-received results of the SAT10 test administered a few months ago (which parents evidently were not notified about). Emily got a 78 percentile in Math, a 76% in Listening, and a 94% in "Environment" (Science/SS), but only a 26% in Reading, which concerned me, given all the reports from school are "she's doing fine." (and of course the "student-led" parent-teacher conference was a waste of time). The school uses a balanced literacy approach, unfortunately. That worked fine with Megan, who is very visual and just memorized how all the words looked (and still never has to study spelling), but Emily doesn't learn the same way.

-- KathyIggy - 13 Nov 2006

Kathy,

Thanks for tip! Connor is very visual also and can memorize quite well. He doesn't study spelling either. However, Ryan, is different. His teacher seemed worried that he simply couldn't memorize the sight words. He is five-years-old. She failed to tell me that many in his class have already turned or will turn six soon.

-- PaulaV - 13 Nov 2006

Paula-I'll let you know how it goes once we start w/the new phonics books. BTW, Emily is a "young" 1st grader as she has a July b-day. Megan, on the other hand, is one of the oldest in her class with a Sept bday. Megan was 7 a week after first grade started, but Emily won't be 7 until next July. We have that "kid spelling" too and it drives me nuts. It wasn't too much of a problem with Megan as she just remembered how the words looked once she learned how to read. But Emily's class is encouraged to "sound it out" when they spell.

-- KathyIggy - 13 Nov 2006

WebLogForm
Title:	reaction range
TopicType:	WebLog
SubjectArea:	CognitiveScience
LogDate:	200610271621

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