21 Sep 2005 - 19:09

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a comment from SteveH:

When I (naively) told my son's first grade teacher that he loved geography and could find any country in the world (even East Timor), she said: "Yes, he has a lot of superficial knowledge."




The kanji combination for superficial knowledge.

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When my daughter was 3 and 1/2, we had her enrolled in an overcrowded pre-school run by a Catholic church who took us in because we were in need after our daughter had been booted out of the pre-school she had been in because her toilet training wasn't up to snuff.

We had just moved to the DC area from the west coast and my daughter was somewhat confused and angry and all the other stuff that comes with a move. She didn't seem very motivated by the activities at the pre-school and we asked one of the instructors -- someone who may not even have graduated high school -- how she was doing. Her response: "Your daughter is not gifted. She is average. I repeat: She is average."

Where do these nimrods get their self-confidence. If I had that kind of chutzpah, I'd be running the EPA by now.

-- BarryGarelick - 21 Sep 2005

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That blows me away.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Sep 2005

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Also, your story reminds me that I HAVE to post Wayne Wickelgren's passages on whether it's possible to know, when a child is young, whether he's good at math.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Sep 2005

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Unbelievable.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Sep 2005

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I really think some mean people go into the teaching business. It's the perfect platform from which to abuse small people who can't fight back.

The parents, too, can't fight back very well either.

-- CarolynJohnston - 22 Sep 2005

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Well, my kid spent his pre-school year in the corner playing with the bin of Mr. Potato Heads wearing a red fire engine hat. He had no part of singing, drawing, or learning about anything. Several of the other children knew their numbers and letters and were quite precocious. One was already starting to read a bit. My son read around age 6, no big whup.

I knew he wasn't LD because he seemed so self-posessed and, well, I just "knew," and although he didn't talk much he clearly understood what people were saying.

We didn't read to him or practice counting or take him to museums. I was too depressed about what was going on with my other son whom we had done all of those things with.

One day he walked into the kitchen at the age of 4 or 5. He was in Pre-K at this point. He looked a bit miffed at me. I asked him what was up and he looked at me sternly and said, "I know there are negative numbers," like I had betrayed him by not telling him this. I laughed and said something about maybe learning about a few positive ones first. I rationalized that he must have heard something on TV.

I think these things reveal themselves in their own good time and they often don't look like what we expect. This is one reason why they don't like to identify too early. Same with LDs really.

-- SusanS - 22 Sep 2005

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Threads like this just make me so grateful for the good luck we've had with our daughters. Both girls started out (as three-year-olds) in three-mornings-a-week preschool. The teachers there didn't take great notice of their early reading ability, but it didn't matter. It was an orderly environment to interact with other kids, and the girls had fun.

When the older one started kindergarten at the public school, her gifts were noticed, and the teacher gave her challenging stuff to do and more classroom responsibility. The special accommodation of her "giftedness" (I hesitate to use the label) has continued into fourth grade. In fact, our district's general lack of gifted programming has been a real plus, because our daughter has received individualized enrichment/acceleration, rather than being tracked in with the top N students labeled as gifted. Our district has Saxon Math, so we don't have to fight math wars.

We tried to get the younger girl into kindergarten early. The public schools' policy is a flat "no" to that. We shopped among private schools, but still got no takers. So, we put her in an all-day preschool which was part of a preschool-through-grade 5 school. They had a green-yellow-red card system for student behavior on a daily basis. They did worksheets for letters and numbers. They went down the hall twice a week for music class. They even got into reading groups later in the year. The teacher caught on quickly that our daughter was a good reader, so she let her read the nap time story to the class. What kindergarten would have had that this preschool didn't I'll never know. In the spring, we had the public school evaluate her. They agreed with us that she should go right into first grade. By the time we were two weeks into the school year, she and one other girl were getting advanced, supplemental math worksheets.

I realize that our situation is far different from dealing with the needs of autistic kids. But I've read many stories of parents who had to fight for appropriate treatment of their gifted kids, too. We just happen to be in the right place so that nobody is fighting us. Our public school is doing great things for us. After reading so many horror stories, I just have to say (okay, write) out loud how grateful I am, and to let you all know that there do exist some people, places, and situations in education that do seem to be pulling in the right direction.

-- DanK - 22 Sep 2005

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Wow! I'm jealous. Saxon Math. You are different. If you have a solid curriculum, you don't need tracks or a gifted program. Where do you live? I'm moving. (You don't have to answer that.)

-- SteveH - 22 Sep 2005

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SteveH

I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents, so please ignore this if you want. I think I was in your shoes a bit a few years ago, so I'll share what I think I know. Again, if I'm saying something you already know, just ignore it.

Does your child's school have any sort of gifted program at all? You can find out fast in the school calender. Often there is a "Gifted Coordinator" that is usually used for a pull-out program of sorts. If the answer is yes, you might find someone who will listen to you better than the regular teachers. If the answer is no, then definitely you need to get your kid out of the school.

If there is a pull-out program, what is the criteria? Usually, IQ is only one way to qualify. Some schools ignore it unless a parent has serious proof. Many times it is the teacher's recommendations. However, a parent armed with their child's IQ score will often get attention over those who just feel their kid needs more. Sometimes a pull-out program kicks in more strongly in the upper grades, but scores and teacher recommendations can get a kid some attention much earlier in some schools.

Some teachers find gifted issues interesting and know a lot about them. Others don't. Parents who are farther along then you might have some good info on who is sensitive and who is not.

Look into your nearby universities and colleges for possible gifted courses and classes for kids. Some are teacher recommended, others need testing, but they can be a lifesaver to bright children who need for people to "take the lid off." Northwestern University has a great enrichment series that we've had our kid in for years. John Hopkins is another that comes to mind.

If you really feel that something is up with you child (and quite frankly, it sounds like he's no ordinary grade-schooler) don't be afraid to go to a psychologist who specializes in gifted issues, or even one that doesn't, and get an IQ test. If you have any private gifted academies nearby, they might actually do testing there. The school might not listen to you as a parent, but they usually respect the test. I've had a couple of friends be so aggravated with the school that they finally broke down and paid for an IQ test, slapped it on the desk of the powers that be, and said, "Okay, now do something about this." It worked for them like a charm.

I would seriously hunt down some parents that you know have these issues and find out what happened. It may lead you to the right teachers/administrators.

Anyway, just my 2 cents... please just take it for what it's worth.

-- SusanS - 22 Sep 2005

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Thank you SusanS^? for your feedback and time. It's much appreciated.

"Does your child's school have any sort of gifted program at all? You can find out fast in the school calender. Often there is a "Gifted Coordinator" that is usually used for a pull-out program of sorts. If the answer is yes, you might find someone who will listen to you better than the regular teachers. If the answer is no, then definitely you need to get your kid out of the school."

No TAG or GATE program, not in the local schools and not in the state. The state stopped funding a GATE advisory committee a few years ago. There is no pull-out at our schools. I went to a meeting once where the superintendent said: "We will not do pull-out." Full-inclusion, child-centered, very wide range mixed ability classrooms, differentiated learning is the rule. All kids are the same, they just learn differently. The schools sent home a questionnaire that asked parents how their kids learn. One parent sent it back and said "fast". Our schools do not even provide any tracking for math in 7th and 8th grades. Well, they allow some students to get a little bit of algebra in 8th grade, but I think they are in the same classroom and still have to do the CMP work with the rest of the class.

"If there is a pull-out program, what is the criteria? Usually, IQ is only one way to qualify. Some schools ignore it unless a parent has serious proof. Many times it is the teacher's recommendations. However, a parent armed with their child's IQ score will often get attention over those who just feel their kid needs more. Sometimes a pull-out program kicks in more strongly in the upper grades, but scores and teacher recommendations can get a kid some attention much earlier in some schools."

I'm not a big fan of GATE programs. The trouble I see (around here, anyways) is that the GATE advocates are using some special need (high IQ) to lobby for more/better curricula for a few. It's not solving the overall problem of bad/slow curricula for the rest of the students. My son might be gifted, but I don't really care or know or want anything extra special. I want a school that provides a high expectation, good quality curriculum in grades K-8 for everyone. It would not make me very happy to have a pull-out program that allowed my son to move up from a 3rd grade class in MathLand to a 4th grade class in MathLand.

"Some teachers find gifted issues interesting and know a lot about them. Others don't. Parents who are farther along then you might have some good info on who is sensitive and who is not."

Even if the schools/teachers believe there are gifted students, they still have to do it in the context of full-inclusion. The school does not have to do anything for the better students. It all depends on the individual teacher.

"Look into your nearby universities and colleges for possible gifted courses and classes for kids. Some are teacher recommended, others need testing, but they can be a lifesaver to bright children who need for people to "take the lid off." Northwestern University has a great enrichment series that we've had our kid in for years. John Hopkins is another that comes to mind."

A friend of mine has her son taking the John Hopkins program ($$$) and convinced the school (a private school) to allow him to do the work and get help in school. The school really didn't want this precedent to be known. The rest of the students there are using Everyday Math. This is the school where my son is now (fourth grade). Instead of MathLand in public school, he gets EM in private school, and we pay big bucks for this! The expectations in this school are much higher, but there is still no tracking or pull-out.

"If you really feel that something is up with you child (and quite frankly, it sounds like he's no ordinary grade-schooler) don't be afraid to go to a psychologist who specializes in gifted issues, or even one that doesn't, and get an IQ test. If you have any private gifted academies nearby, they might actually do testing there. The school might not listen to you as a parent, but they usually respect the test. I've had a couple of friends be so aggravated with the school that they finally broke down and paid for an IQ test, slapped it on the desk of the powers that be, and said, "Okay, now do something about this." It worked for them like a charm."

My son may be gifted, but in some ways I'm kind of glad I don't have to go through all of this IQ business. I want a good basic K-8 education and my wife and I can handle the rest. (I supplement with Singapore Math.) He has an amazing memory, but that's just for all of the "superficial knowledge" he has to learn. He is well adjusted, happy, social, and quite delightful. He just needs to be challenged.

"I would seriously hunt down some parents that you know have these issues and find out what happened. It may lead you to the right teachers/administrators."

I have been looking for the last 4/5 years and have found very little.

Anyway, just my 2 cents... please just take it for what it's worth.

Thank you again.

-- SteveH - 23 Sep 2005

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Wow, Steve,

That superintendent is loopy, isn't she. Clinging to the mantra of full-inclusion no matter what is just nuts.

I thank God my special ed kid had self- containment. It was done very well. He was in a class of 10 or so for major academics, but went to other classes for Art, Music, Gym, and Science. If we lived a few blocks in another direction he would have been in a regular classroom with an aide. The pace of any regular classroom would have been awful for him, yet we could have lived even farther to a another town or district and he might have ended up with no aide at all. What a disaster that would have been. I have no idea how long he would have languished like that before his father and I figured out that we would have to do something drastic. And like you said, it's like moving mountains trying to get a decent response if the system is dead set against it.

Gifted programs are always the first to get cut, mostly from a lack of understanding of what they are supposed to do. There was an article in a parent's newspaper around here about how unfair it was that gifted kids get all the fun enrichment classes and why can't all kids get classes like that. The writer totally missed the point, but I think he is probably typical.

There's also that underlying tension between parents about the word itself and what it means. I sometimes wish there was another identifying label.

I do think that having a parent like you is really more than half the battle. There are a few parents around here who have been frustrated with the system, but they've been the kind of parents who could challenge their kids without any real help from the outside. I so feel sorry for the kid who doesn't have such support.

-- SusanS - 23 Sep 2005

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"That superintendent is loopy, isn't she. Clinging to the mantra of full-inclusion no matter what is just nuts."

It's an ideal dreamworld, but all of the focus is on the lower end kids. This is great for them and our town has a very good reputation for helping the lower ability kids. Some parents move to our town for our programs. The better ability kids end up as window dressing for their philosophy of one big happy egalitarian learning community.

When the parents of better ability (not just gifted kids) ask for more, there are no guarantees and it all has to be done in the context of full-inclusion. But how do you give individualized instruction in a mixed-ability, child-centered environment with one, slow-paced, curriculum? It is just not politically correct to suggest that their educational model is wrong. There are teachers and IEP parents who are resentful when parents take their kids out of this educational model. One parent told me that she really likes the idea of having kids of all abilities in one learning environment. It teaches kids that everyone is equal and has something meaningful to contribute. Therefore, those who send their kids to private schools are selfish and just want an elite education. Many people see grades K-8 as mostly a social endeavor, rather than an academic one.

Some in the GATE community feel that their kids have special needs that require attention just like the IEP students. They use this "special needs" angle as leverage to force their agenda. This often creates IQ or testing hurdles that parents try desperately to meet, even if their kids do not have special needs. My son may (or may not) be gifted, but he has no special needs other than being challenged by a good curriculum that moves at a faster pace. In some sense, all kids have special needs and parents shouldn't have to play all sorts of games at the low or high ends to have their needs met.

"There's also that underlying tension between parents about the word itself and what it means. I sometimes wish there was another identifying label."

As I mentioned, my son may have a high IQ, but he has no "special" learning needs or difficulties. I don't like the term. Then, they add the term "Talented". Where do you make the cutoff for that on the bell curve? What if your child is right below the cutoff?

I see two separate issues. The first is providing each child with a quality curriculum at a proper pace. (acceleration, not enrichment) The second is dealing with the special learning needs kids have to allow them to reach their potential. IQ testing relates to the first issue, but not the second. GATE programs combine the two issues into one. If you view special needs as simply providing a challenging curriculum, then all kids have special needs.

Tracking or phasing in the lower grades is an attempt to deal with this issue, but the problem is that the child may be assigned and permanently stuck in a lower quality phase (curriculum), starting in a very early grade. A better model is to have a high quality, good-paced curriculum that allows kids to move up or down the grade levels based on their abilities in different subjects. This is based on a child's ability to work hard and not just their IQ rating. This doesn't prevent a child from moving up later on and doesn't relegate the child permanantly to a second class curriculum. This model can be overlaid with programs to help kids with special learning needs at all IQ levels.

The kids know who is smart in a subject and who is not. The kids know who is good on the soccer field and who is not. It is incredible that our schools want to hide this difference to the point where it prevents the better ability kids from getting what they need. The parents get progressive platitudes. The kids get enrichment rather than acceleration.

-- SteveH - 23 Sep 2005