Comments

reminder: KTM reader pages (created by readers of KTM)

• Barry's article help

• Anne's summer class

• Interested Teacher's More Or Less Pen and Paper page

• MoreOrLessPaperAndPencil

and, from Carolyn & Catherine:

• reader suggestions, requests, & usability feedback

As you know, I tutor math students. I get a lot of calls because I (and my supportive husband) distributed about 800 fliers around town. I got a call today from a grandmother. Here is the problem: her 4th grade to be granddaughter does well in every subject except math. She hates math. What math program is she using? You guessed it, Everyday Math. Here is the most interesting thing about the conversation. I told her about my daughter and her struggles and what we were doing this summer to help her be successful. And you could tell that she just relaxed.... someone was giving her permission to help her grandaughter during the summer. She knew what to do, she just didn't think she was allowed to do it!!! So now, she is going to start a summer program of her own. I advised her to concentrate on basic skills and to help her be successful.

-- AnneDwyer - 30 Jun 2005

The Saxon homeschool curriculum is great for ease of use, although today I was in LD hell. We were cruising, sort of, until everything just went out the window. It wasn't Saxon's fault, but discouraging nonetheless.

First test coming up tomorrow. I'm going to see what happens if I don't modify at all.

Anne,

I ordered the Reading Naturally program. I'm really looking forward to working with it.

-- SusanS - 30 Jun 2005

Re: Measurement

My first year teaching high school freshman (I just finished my 3rd year at a urban neighborhood school) I was completely shocked that none, and I mean none, of the kids could measure using an inches ruler.

How can they get out of middle school, or even grade school, not knowing how to measure? I still have no clue. I doubt its the constructivists fault due to their fondess for hands-on, manipulatives, and project, which all lend themselves to measurement.

What I have observed:

• Metric OK, Inches Not -- While the kids can't (or won't) measure in inches, many (but not all) can measure using a centimeter ruler. Fractions rear their ugly head again.

• Estimation, Schmestimation -- The kids do not know when it is, or is not, appropriate to estimate. The kids have trouble estimating measurements between the lines of the ruler. But the kids are very willing to make bad estimates to avoid having to figure out what the little lines mean. 2 5/16 inevitably becomes 2 1/2.

• What is a protractor? -- The kids REALLY don't know how to use a protractor (except as a frisbee). Most don't even know that its purpose is to measure angles.

A side note related, I believe, to measurement. Each year I do a lesson where we compare the kids height in inches to their shoe size. The majority of the kids do not know how tall they are, let alone how to convert the height in inches.

So buy all means get a ruler, protractor, some measuring cups and spoons, and a kitched scale (or even better a pan palance) and start measuring everything around the house!

-- CarlLarson - 30 Jun 2005

FYI...Singapore Math is organized differently than American elementary math textbooks. The book are arranged in this order 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B...6A,6B. When a student is finished with 6B, that student is ready to begin studying Algebra. Therefore the number on the book does not translate into an American grade level. In fact many people comment that children begin the Singapore program 1 number below their current grade. My child began with level 2B even though she was starting 4th grade.

-- KtmGuest - 01 Jul 2005

Susan,

Good for you. It is a great program for many reasons. The main reason is , as we have said before, it is important that a child feels successful. With Read Naturally, being successful is built right into the program. Have fun!

-- AnneDwyer - 01 Jul 2005

Here is the most interesting thing about the conversation. I told her about my daughter and her struggles and what we were doing this summer to help her be successful. And you could tell that she just relaxed.... someone was giving her permission to help her grandaughter during the summer. She knew what to do, she just didn't think she was allowed to do it!!! So now, she is going to start a summer program of her own. I advised her to concentrate on basic skills and to help her be successful.

That's fantastic.

It's true: we all have so much math phobia or math anxiety or just plain math 'uncertainty' (that was me).....and then when you add in the constructivist math ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE BELONG TO US ideology....it's intimidating.

One of my sayings is: math isn't brain surgery.

Unfortunately, that saying doesn't happen to be true: math IS brain surgery.

But the fact is, we can certainly help our kids gain mastery & automaticity of the basic skills.

So maybe we don't understand reciprocals (IF I DON'T 'GET' RECIPROCALS SOON I'M GOING TO BE A VERY FRUSTRATED PERSON), but what the heck.

Nobody teaching elementary school understands reciprocals, either.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

My first year teaching high school freshman (I just finished my 3rd year at a urban neighborhood school) I was completely shocked that none, and I mean none, of the kids could measure using an inches ruler.

I love it!

NO ONE CAN MEASURE!

My mom went to a Home Depot last year, and she needed some dowels cut to size....and the young sales clerk couldn't do it.

Couldn't do it at all. Period. No way he could measure off a 2-foot dowel from a big, long dowel.

My mom finally had to show him how to do it.

Ed went to Home Depot (ragging out on Home Depot today) last year to have styrofoam sheets cut as a hot tub cover, because the dogs had destroyed yet another five hundred dollar special-order cover.

The sheets of styrofoam weren't side enough to cover a hot tub, so the guy was going to have to measure off and cut two overlapping sheets.

He couldn't begin to do it.

Finally he had to call his manager over, and I don't remember whether the manager could do it, either. (I'll ask when he gets in from his run.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

I don't know what the explanation is for the KIDS CAN'T MEASURE business.

Christopher didn't have a fuzzy curriculum at school (though it's true, as David Klein says, that practically all U.S. math curricula are fuzzy to some degree) and I sure as heck wasn't using a fuzzy curriculum here at home.

Looking back, I realize that I experienced a 'failure to disaggregate': I take measurement so for granted as a simple & obvious skill, that I didn't break it down into component skills for Christopher, have him practice it religiously, etc.

I have dim memories of assuming he could already measure when we did measurement lessons in Saxon, then giving them short shrift. We have to lock everything up around here because Andrew 'steals' things, and I have TOO MUCH STUFF anyway, so half the time we can't find the rulers, which then makes me disinclined to even attempt to find a ruler because I know I'm going to get crazy if I don't find it......so that's a little more than anyone probably needed to know about my own personal dysfunctionality.

Anyway I'd be in a frame of mind where I wanted to get the lesson done and I didn't want to do a big, huge Ruler Search, so I think I probably didn't spend much time teaching and assessing RULER SKILL.

When I had Christopher measure a line that was 2 5/8" this week, he continually and repeatedly read this as "3" and something-or-other (I stopped him at that point).

The '3' was 'pulling' him away from the tiny little 5/8 or 15/16 mark....

Christopher's visual processing is not great (we are vision therapy drop-outs, say to say).....and I also wonder about the vast amount of videogaming most kids are doing.....

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

Metric OK, Inches Not -- While the kids can't (or won't) measure in inches, many (but not all) can measure using a centimeter ruler.

Oh that is very interesting.

And ridiculous.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

Susan S

What happened?

How did things break down?

(If that's too personal, don't answer!)

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

Oh, it was really quite a typical bump. We just hadn't had them too much since starting the Saxon(except for a growing resistence to the first Activity Sheets with the quick math facts. Once past that we were rolling along.)

The funny thing about ADHD kids is that there is absolutely no such thing as time. Unless they have to do something that gets in the way of what they want to do. Then it will take way too much time. Anyway, he can turn a 5 minute warmup into a half an hour in no time flat. I know all of his tricks, but usually I finally have to threaten to take something away. He can be very teary and dramatic. We aren't doing anything hard, just single-digit subraction.

He is in junior high so he is well-versed in all of the touchy-feely language around ADHD and LD's. I don't mind until he tells me that he really can't help it, it's his brain doing it and not him. I usually tell him to tell his brain to get over itself.

Don't get me wrong, I do know how things are harder with ADHD and LD. I just don't want him to develop a victim identity. We all struggle in our own way and we all have our gifts. Many brilliant people are miserable wretches. Many simple people live very happy lives. I think LD kids need some resilience on top of an awareness of how they are different.

Anyway, I'm babbling...

-- SusanS - 01 Jul 2005

We just hadn't had them too much since starting the Saxon(except for a growing resistence to the first Activity Sheets with the quick math facts. Once past that we were rolling along.)

Does your son dislike the fast facts sheets?

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

I don't mind until he tells me that he really can't help it, it's his brain doing it and not him. I usually tell him to tell his brain to get over itself.

Christopher has actively tried to convince me that his brain is a wreck.

When he was younger he would actually say things like 'my brain made me do it' or 'my brain can't stop.'

This comes entirely from having 2 siblings with major disabilities.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

Ben complains a lot that his "stupid mouth won't work right."

I'm not sure what's going on there, but I suspect he has some processing problem that feels very frustrating to him.

-- CarolynJohnston - 01 Jul 2005

He usually does like little math facts sheets. Not at first, but after it gets back in his head, so I'm not totally sure what's going on. I used to "minute math" him quite a bit in his younger years and at the beginning of each school year. Most of thse sheets contain 25-30 problems. I'm just guessing, but I have a feeling that seeing the extra problems in the Saxon warmup is messing with his head in the "time" department. He just thinks, "Oh no, more problems, more time, I'll never get to play. Ever. It will be hours."

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking. I tell him all the standard stuff like "we could have been done by now," or "if you want to drag this out all day, fine by me, I have nothing going on." Sometimes those work, but often once he gets some little goofy thing in his brain, it's almost like obsessive-compulsive disorder. The thought just keeps dominating his thinking. I usually have to modify somewhat at some point. I'm soooooo much more patient after all these years.

On the bright side, we did get the One Minute Reader from Reading Naturally and he loves it! Today, anyway. I'll take what I can get. He loved the whole setup and he felt very successful, which is always good. The shortness of the stories is really helpful with ADHD. He also loved repeating the story over and over with the reader. He doubled his time after a few times through. So, we'll see. At the very least he is getting more reading in. I'm definitely going to show it to his teachers in the fall.

-- SusanS - 01 Jul 2005

I tell him all the standard stuff like "we could have been done by now," or "if you want to drag this out all day, fine by me, I have nothing going on."

My theory is kids are genetically wired not to grasp this line of reasoning.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

we did get the One Minute Reader from Reading Naturally and he loves it! Today, anyway. I'll take what I can get. He loved the whole setup and he felt very successful, which is always good.

Wow!

Do you think I could adapt these for Andrew?

Andrew is just starting to talk, so I need some way to know if he actually read and got the story.

But this is exactly what I need: something super-short.

Do any of the books have pictures?

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

I'm going to go cruise the web site now.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

I just ordered a book.

This is amazing.

Andrew just started talking this year--he is 10, and the 'window' is supposed to be closed--and everyone is convinced he started talking because we were finally able to get him a 'VOCA,' which is a machine that talks for you.

Hearing the same voice speak in the same way over and over again is probably critically important for kids like Andrew.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

It does have a little picture here and a little one there. Visually, the whole thing is quite attractive for a young kid. The speaker on the audio cd (I've only used the first one) speaks very naturally, but really pauses at the periods and commas. It took my son a second to get her rhythm, but since it made so much sense he settled in on it. I'll be very curious to see if it improves his reading down the road.

"My theory is kids are genetically wired not to grasp this line of reasoning."

lol. Yes, it did occur to me that I was using time to get him not to waste time. Not terribly logical, but I'll try anything. Usually, bribery with M&M's would be next. Nothing is beneath me.

-- SusanS - 01 Jul 2005

People talk about scripted instruction, but no one ever mentions scripted protest and scripted futile parental response to protest.

My volleys with Christopher are so predictable someone should tape one and just replay the tape every time they get rolling.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Jul 2005

Susan. bribery is the strategy I begin with!

I just told Ben that if he went upstairs and took a shower, I would let him play with some of the poppers we got him for the 4th of July.

It worked: he took a shower.

-- CarolynJohnston - 02 Jul 2005