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I can honestly say I've wasted almost all of my time in teachers ed classes. I don't think I've learnt anything, and I've had to put up with listening to some really trully stupid comments:

"A parent who sits her child in front of the TV all day is doing just a valid job at parenting as the parent who talks to her child and reads her child books."

"Red pen is extremely damaging to a student's self-esteem." Said teacher then showed someones work to the entire class on an overhead projector, said it was appalling, and that this person "had a very long way to go before they were ready to become a teacher."

"As you are at university you are part of the hegemonic elite, and want to keep anyone who is not exactly like you - male anglo saxon protestants - from achieving." I'm in primary ed. About 85% of our class is girls, probably more. There are also people who come from a variety of backgrounds, so I don't know what the Aboriginal girl thought about her wanting to keep all of her family etc down.

It was considered perfectly acceptable, in watching a video, to make fun of the rich kids, but if anyone had made fun of the poor kids they would have been crucified. (The video was 7-Up.)

These are just examples from two classes. I've only had one maths class, and I've been told only that competition is damaging to self-esteem, manipulatives are essential, and that memorising maths facts is pointless because we have calculators.

-- SamanthaRawson - 21 Dec 2005

I thought you'd like this article!

I'd like to underscore that Dr. Kenschaft does not blame teachers for not knowing enough math but, rather, their own poor education.

Dr. Kenschaft's website is a treasure trove of fascinating and welcoming information including archives of her former Math Medley weekly call-in radio show on which she interviewed hundreds of important people who are involved in math edcuation issues.

http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~kenschaft/

-- SusanJ - 22 Dec 2005

Well, I’ve just finished my first semester of “Math for Elementary Teachers” and would like to share my observations with you. Brace yourselves—this isn’t pretty.

Here are a few of the many things that students did that frustrated me:

1. Flagrantly ignored the teacher’s instruction to put away our homework and participate in the discussion.

2. Openly boasted about cheating (in another ed class)

3. Said things like, “We have homework again tonight? I don’t know if I’m down with that.”

4. Continued to talk after class had started

5. Rarely, if ever, voluntarily answered questions (The teacher and I made a pact that I would stop raising my hand until there was a long, awkward pause and pleas from the teacher for volunteers were ignored. This brings back elementary school memories)

6. Attempted to use me as a crutch/answer key (we’re talking about K-6th grade math! The pre-req to this class is supposedly pre-calc or a high enough ACT/SAT score!!!!)

Since I’m not a teacher ed major, my teacher was curious about why I was taking her class. When she found out that I intend to home school my kids, she expressed her regret that I wouldn’t be teaching in public school. The majority of my classmates were so apathetic, lazy, and non-responsive that we fear what kind of math teachers they will be.

This didn’t stop her from succumbing to the pressures of grade inflation, however. At the end of the semester, my teacher increased students’ homework scores dramatically by making it “out of” 200 fewer points (max 100%). I only missed 7 of 1350 points overall, so my homework grade got boosted from 99.5% to 100%, but some people’s homework grades jumped over 12%! Three-fourths of the homework problems had answers in the back of the book, for goodness sake! The worksheets were all group-based. I think there was no excuse for anyone to miss more than 200 points on the homework.

On our tests, there were “boosts” as well, such as a 6 pt. bonus question (that had been in our group homework). I earned 106% on that test. Then, on another test, a bunch of students missed a 4 pt. question. The teacher let everyone, including those who hadn’t missed it, redo it and earn that 4% back. Thus, I got a 101% on that test.

Since I tend to be an outlier where grades are concerned, I’m used to college profs adjusted everyone’s grades up so that mine is 100%-102%, but this was ridiculous.

The final, absolutely pathetic indicator of incompetence was that when given the percentage breakdown (15% homework, 60% tests, etc.), the points earned, and the points possible in each category, at least 1/3 of the students were unable to figure their own grades (this includes several students who were given an A in the course).

-- AndyJoy - 22 Dec 2005

Susan

It's UNBELIEVABLE!

(I'm just back from dinner, so won't read the whole thread just now.....)

Thanks SO much for posting it.

I'm blown away.

Ed said, over dinner, that the 'Math Brain' he went to high school with, a bona fide genius, taught a large circle of brainy friends science for two years.

He didn't just 'help with homework.'

Every night this boy taught them science.

(I'll have to find out if he taught them math, too.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

Here he is: Math Brain in Levittown

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

When our daughter was in second grade, we started getting the sense that something was amiss in the way math was being taught. At the time, we didn't know the jargon to realize that the school was using the "spiral" approach. I kept hoping it would get better. I spent an hour with our district's curriculum director and we ended the meeting by basically agreeing to disagree: I was (an still am!) a firm believer that math sense was best obtained by mastering the traditional algorithms and she thought that math sense was best obtained by learning the theory. By this time, our daughter was in third grade and we had friends who sold us on the merits of Kumon. While we had the ability to teach her ourselves, we didn't think we had the mental discipline and so we decided to "outsource" it to Kumon. We stopped Kumon after her fifth grade year; after a badly failed experiment with a "fuzzy math" program, the middle school had returned to a more traditional approach. Kumon was an absolute godsend; she has a very solid "math sense" and has scored consistently in the 99% for math on standardized tests. The "education system" makes it so hard to speak out. I applaud Carolyn's efforts for doing so. My guess is that there are a number of parents who sense there is a problem but are afraid to make waves and will be behind her; they just don't want to lead the charge.

-- KtmGuest - 22 Dec 2005

I'm going to let some of my judgmental, ornery side show through.

I'm really glad to see the comment from Andy Joy. I think it's a necessary counterpoint to Catherine's original post. You can paint the teachers as victims of poor math education if you like, but at some point, you've got to admit that there are a lot of mathphobes and dim bulbs in the lot.

My parents didn't teach me math; nor did my peers. I learned it in math class. The math classes for the non-"math brains" were taught by the same teachers. It's fine if the future ed majors in high school didn't take calculus--or even trig or analytic geometry. It's not fine, though, that they didn't learn how to multiply and divide fractions. I'm pretty sure that was covered in their classes, too.

I'm not surprised they love fuzzy math. They never knew how to get the right answers, anyway.

In one of the other threads on teacher pay, someone brought up that teacher attrition was something like 50% in the first five years. The implication was that many teachers were lured to more lucrative professions. Maybe some. I wonder, though, how many of these ed school grads who never did any serious work throughout their time as students simply couldn't motivate themselves to make it to work for a full day everyday. Perhaps the jewelry counter at Macy's was the alternative that lured them away.

I don't know what percentage of graduates from ed schools ever get jobs as teachers. It's just interesting to imagine what kind of student might graduate in the bottom third of the ed school of, say, Illinois State University. Do you really want someone who achieved so little in his/her own education contributing to the education of your kid? Perhaps that hypothetical person would never get a job in the first place. If he/she did, though, having him/her wash out within five years might be a blessing.

-- DanK - 22 Dec 2005

Dan, you misread my statistic. It's 50% of math and science teachers who leave in the first 5 years, not teachers in general. I was one of them.

I'd been part of an M.A.T. program set up by the NSF (IIRC) to get college graduates with subject matter majors and no education courses into public school teaching. I don't know what happened to the others but I found working in a public school just too frustrating and that was 40 years ago!

There are 1.4 million elementary school teachers in this country. If all the ones who can't multiply and divide fractions were to suddenly leave the profession, we'd have a serious crisis. We have no choice but to educate them in place.

-- SusanJ - 22 Dec 2005

I think the equation, if you will, is somewhat complicated. A number of elementary school teachers (especially the old-timers)dislike "fuzzy math." However, when they voice their opinion, they soon realize that it's not politically correct to do so and learn to keep quiet. They continue to teach math their way; but they do so under the radar screen. My sense is that there is an entire "underground" system in high-scoring districts that includes both those teachers who know better and continue to teach their way, and the parents who know better and either go to Kumon, self-teach or hire tutors.

There are also, I think, too many of the teachers that DanK^? is talking about. I wonder what the average ACT scores of elementary ed majors are compared to other disciplines such as accounting, engineering, etc. Okay, I probably don't even have to ask that question, do I?

-- KtmGuest - 22 Dec 2005

Ed schoolers have some of the lowest SAT (and most likely ACT too) scores of any profession.

-- KDeRosa - 22 Dec 2005

The Education Schools Project is working on this. "The Education Schools Project provides a critical assessment of the ways in which the nation's 1,200 schools of education prepare—and should prepare—teachers, school administrators, and education researchers."

http://www.edschools.org/index.htm

-- SusanJ - 22 Dec 2005

"The Education Schools Project"

Thanks for the link. I just checked out the website--it looks promising. Our state allows fifth graders to use calculators on its standardized test. Obviously, this allows teachers who are so inclined to simply teach the students to use the calculators without having to teach the hard substance. I'm quite sure this was what was happening in my daughter's fifth grade class. The only way I didn't go crazy over this was because we were going to Kumon. Now that I think about it, I suppose Kumon was my "Prozac" for coping with "fuzzy math."

-- KtmGuest - 22 Dec 2005

In my ed classes, mature age student and double degree students are literally the only ones who can read / write. In one of my classes we had to read a page from a picture story book out loud, and several of the straight education kids just could not do it. My friends and I sat at the back shaking our heads and going "oh no, they CAN'T be that stupid". But they were. It was a real contrast when one of the mature age students read aloud, not only without stumbling over the words, but with real expression!

And maths class is no better. We don't learn anything. The straight education students keep going on about 'concepts' and 'in-depth learning', whilst the rest of us try to get through a class without bashing our heads against a wall.

Obviously I try and read books and websites on education by myself, but many of my friends find it difficult because we are only ever given lists of fuzzy books or websites. So when they do try and do their own reading they just more of the fuzzies, and so they give up. I make it a policy to tell anyone who asks about various books or websites I read that I've found usefull. Hopefully some of them then check them out, and realise that there is more to education than the nonsense we get taught.

-- SamanthaRawson - 22 Dec 2005

boy

this thread is an eye-opener

(hey—there's an original phrase)

I'm going to get ALL of these comments pulled up front.

I want them prominently displayed whenever people pull of the Category threads.

I'll have to see if I can find the Ed Week article on the 'new generation' of teachers.

According to Ed Week, the new generation differs from the old, retiring generation in being dedicated, ambitious professional-types who want career tracks, promotions, and lots of colleague time.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

Samantha

I've forgotten—are you here now? (In the U.S., I mean?)

I'm remembering that you were from Australia, but are in America now.

Or is that wrong?

Andy

If it's not too intrusive, which ed school are you taking classes in?

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

These schools need to be busted.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

Sunshine laws for ed schools.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

You can paint the teachers as victims of poor math education if you like, but at some point, you've got to admit that there are a lot of mathphobes and dim bulbs in the lot.

Right, and there's a tension here, writing a public blooki.

I don't want to be globally bashing teachers (and I don't think anyone else around here does, either).

Which makes things challenging.

One thing I've wanted to say, but haven't, is this:

If elementary school teachers don't know math, they need to go learn it.

I hadn't done any math to speak of in 25 years when I started teaching Christopher.

I quickly discovered I needed to know lots more than I did if I was going to bring him up to speed.

So I started re-learning math.

That is a teacher's responsibility.

A teacher must ask herself: Do I know this material well enough to teach it expertly?

If the answer is no, the path is clear.

I use the feminine pronoun because K-8 teachers are overwhelmingly female.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

and btw, obviously I've gotten hooked on math....I'm putting huge masses of effort into relearning math and learning how it's taught when it's taught well.

I'm doing more than I would expect a K-6 teacher to do—i.e. a teacher who must teach reading and writing as well.

However, I didn't need to do as much as I'm doing.

Early on I realized I needed to do all the Saxon 6/5 exercises myself, not just assign them to Christopher to do.

Just working my way through the Saxon Math grade 5 homeschool book taught me a huge amount of what I needed to know.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

Samantha

oops

There wouldn't be an Aboriginal girl in your class in America.

sorry

(How did I get the idea you'd emigrated to the U.S.? Do we have another Contributor who moved here from Australia? We may need to put up a Kitchen Table Math Rogue's Gallery, with photos & bios...)

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

In my experience, some of the teachers do know math, but don't understand the importance of learning to rote. My daughter's second grade teacher was a first year teacher and was using the textbook "spiral" approach. At the end of the school year, she remarked that she didn't realize that the kids would forget how to add and subtract if they didn't practice those skills for several months. One of the problems, of course, was that the kids hadn't overlearned their math facts in the first place. I think she finally caught on, but for some of those kids, it was too late.

Something I realized from our Kumon experience was the sheer beauty of long division in reinforcing the basic skills of addition, subtraction and multiplication.

And finally, a professor of actuarial sciences remarked that college students don't have an appreciation of large numbers. As I think about it, nowhere in our kids' elementary education did they add and subtract large numbers.

-- KtmGuest - 22 Dec 2005

"Something I realized from our Kumon experience was the sheer beauty of long division in reinforcing the basic skills of addition, subtraction and multiplication."

I agree, but many teachers and fuzzy math curricula do not see any linkage between mastery and understanding. The argument is not even over how many of these long division problems to do (50, 100, 500?). It's about whether you practice them at all. They don't like practice (drill and kill), but they want number sense!?! There is nothing like long division to give you a big dose of number sense.

How about the simple case of multiplying 23 by 8 in your head, as in

divide 1954 by 23.

My A+ Everyday Math son takes way too long to do this. I tell him that he has to multiply 8 times 20 and add 8 times 3 and see if it is close to 195. Long division requires a lot of mental math.

Most fuzzy math curricula see number sense as estimation. This is not bad, except that it is very rough estimation - within an order of magnitude. This is not the same level of number sense you get from having to do problems like 23 times 8 in your head.

-- SteveH - 22 Dec 2005

Something I realized from our Kumon experience was the sheer beauty of long division in reinforcing the basic skills of addition, subtraction and multiplication.

Me, too! Except I learned this from Anne Dwyer, I think, when she made this observation one day.

It's been incredibly fun 'seeing' all these amazingly simple facts about math ed I'd just never noticed before.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

And finally, a professor of actuarial sciences remarked that college students don't have an appreciation of large numbers. As I think about it, nowhere in our kids' elementary education did they add and subtract large numbers.

They're gone!

Vanished!

Disappeared!

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

meanwhile Christopher keeps telling me 'You can write assface on the scientific calculator'

something like that

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005

One issue has surfaced with our daughter, taught Everyday Math in the schools. She knows her multiplication tables cold, and we have shown her the standard algorithm for division. At present, her class is spending a great deal of time working on division with "friendly numbers".

She finds it hard to guess which number she should consider "friendly", as her grasp of "math facts", a.k.a. "number sense", means that she is not afraid of dividing 5760 by 8. She does not need to find elaborate, extra steps to basic division. Her sour expression when she speaks the phrase, "friendly numbers" is also something to behold.

My impression is that Everyday Math needs to teach such clumsy algorithms for division, because it does not emphasize mastery of basic arithmetic.

-- KtmGuest - 22 Dec 2005

Her sour expression when she speaks the phrase, "friendly numbers" is also something to behold.

This bears repeating.

-- CatherineJohnson - 22 Dec 2005