TellingTimeInSingaporeMath < Kitchen

30 Jun 2006 - 19:07

telling time in Singapore Math

Rudbeckia asked whether schools ought to be expected to teach children to tell time.

I was under the impression that that has always been the school's job, but once she asked the question I wasn't sure so I checked Singapore & Saxon.

Singapore Math teaches the topic of telling time in the 2nd half of 2nd grade:

The series begins time calculations in 3B:

Saxon Math begins teaching time (and date of month) in Kindergarton, then continues in 1st grade and 2nd.

Christopher learned to tell time at school.

At the Phase 4 Parent Uprising Meeting a year and a half ago one of the parents brought up the fact that kids all over New York state were doing poorly on the "Measurement" scale on the state tests. (Christopher's low score on the Measurement scale almost cost him his 4.)

Lisa Urban, the legendary middle school math teacher, grinned and said with obvious relish, "Your children can't tell time!"

Then she elaborated.

"By that I don't mean they can't tell me what time it is on the clock. I mean they can't calculate time. They can't solve problems concerning time. I want your children to go out in the world and solve problems.

etc.

It's probably just as well she's retiring.

I'll kick myself for saying this next fall.

-- CatherineJohnson - 30 Jun 2006

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Kumon just released some time workbooks. They look good.

-- KtmGuest - 30 Jun 2006

My boys only started with Singapore 3A/B... The Time topic includes a lot of word problems that require the child to figure out e.g. when exactly is 3hr35min before 2:15PM. Is that modulo 12? and keep track of the AM/PM distinction.

I finally had to make up my own worksheets for the boys where they practiced composing and decomposing TWELVES. It was just totally unfamiliar to them. But a great learning experience.

In real life, it's always mom or dad who has to figure out when to leave the house, to arrive someplace on time, and few kids under ten pay attention to that calculation as it happens. It's just one of the good things that happens to American kids, like food appearing on their plates at regular times during the day.

-- BeckyC - 30 Jun 2006

The quality of a school is not determined by what they assume will be learned at home. Even if a teacher or school is astounded by what students have not learned at home, that is no excuse.

It's the liberal educational paradox: they expect parents to do their part, but the ones they want to help the most can't or won't do it. I see this with some of our school committee members. They think that the public school has its problems, but their kids are doing OK. Of course, they are involved parents at home making sure that their kids get what they need.

Our public schools do very well in this regard. Their difficulty arises because they don't allow the more willing or able students to move ahead. They help the lowest ability kids, but don't like the idea that some kids are very unequal learners. It sort of bursts their egalitarian educational bubble. Ergo; enrichment and not acceleration.

-- SteveH - 01 Jul 2006

"They help the lowest ability kids, but don't like the idea that some kids are very unequal learners. It sort of bursts their egalitarian educational bubble. Ergo; enrichment and not acceleration."

So true!

At the same time educationists prattle on endlessly about developmentally appropriate instruction, insist that pupils must proceed at their own pace and rail against "one size fits all." All empty phrases when it comes to maximizing the potential of high-ability students.

-- CharlesH - 01 Jul 2006

oh gosh!

Thanks, ktm guest

I have no idea whether Andrew can tell time or not, and he's thriving with KUMON (though they may teach time in the worksheet sequence, too....they probably do, come to think of it...)

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Jul 2006

well, as is obvious by now our middle school is bad for all the kids, fast, slow, & in between

it really is an astonishing scene around there

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Jul 2006

I don't understand why certain topics are part of "pedagogical content knowlege" in arithmetic while others aren't, but I'm assuming that time is taught because measurement seems to be almost the "Core Skill" of arithmetic

Is that wrong?

I'm slightly embarrassed to say that I was very surprised to discover that calendars & measurement of any kind were considered math.....

I need to read Ron Aharoni's book on arithmetic.

In any case, I assume that time is taught in public school because it's one of the basic forms of measurement children use and must know - and because measurement is the critical concept & skill they're mastering at this stage.

Becky's right about Singapore & time, and it's the same in Saxon.

You start with simply being able to read the clock, and divide an hour into 12ths & quarters - which is fairly complicated already.

Then you move on to problems involving borrowing & carrying.

Saxon has huge numbers of those problems.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Jul 2006

My copy of the ed psych text arrived, and is horrifying.

Page after page after page is about students "taking responsibility" for their learning, which is now called "self-regulation."

I had no idea things had advanced this far.

I'll post some passages from it.

We're way past "character education," and we're way past teaching "critical thinking."

Assuming this textbook is an indication, the goal of education now is to shape internal psychological processes.

Basically they're teaching executive function, and that's it.

And of course they're "teaching" it all wrong.

I don't actually know how one encourages & teaches executive function, but I'd put money on it obedience-to-authority regimes aren't the way to go.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Jul 2006

"Basically they're teaching executive function, and that's it."

In some cases, that is yet another skill that the parents are actually teaching.

-- KarenA - 02 Jul 2006

Our middle school is teaching passive aggression & acting out, among other things.

Neither of which is high on my list of Skills to be Attained through Character Education.

Apparently the English teacher - the other Ms. K - who, I now discover, is loathed by parents & children alike, spent the end of the year haranguing the kids about personal responsibility.

One day (I knew about this one when it happened) she handed out homework to only 2 or 3 kids in the class.

She didn't give it to the rest of the kids.

The next day she took points off and yelled at them because they should have had the personal responsibility to stay after school and ask her for the homework, or call up their "homework buddies" (most of whom wouldn't have had the homework, either) and ask them for the homework.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Jul 2006

because they should have had the personal responsibility to stay after school and ask her for the homework

Utopian thinking.

An unconstrained vision of the potential for humans to perfect themselves... at thirteen years old.

-- BeckyC - 02 Jul 2006

Because, after all, she wouldn't want to be authoritarian and just tell the kids what to do and when to do it.

Oh no. That would be damaging.

-- BeckyC - 02 Jul 2006

I'll tell you....this school doesn't worry about what's damaging to kids. You just don't hear it in their language.

No, this was a case of "Look what you made me do."

The teacher made a mistake, and the children were supposed to correct for it - make it better.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Jul 2006

Wow! Never before have I seen a group of parents so dedicated to blame-shifting and teacher scapegoating. Furthermore, you seem to have absolute trust in what your children tell you, apparently forgetting the fact that kids usually skew incidents in their favor. A teacher handed out homework to only two or three students, then deducted points for those who had not done it? Seems unlikely. I cannot tell you how often I have introduced the homework, set expectations, and placed it on a desk before the class to be picked up on their way out, only to find that many students "forgot" to pick it up, or picked it up and subsequently dropped it on the floor. By absolving students of any responsibility and demonizing the teachers, you are effectively damning your child to a failed college career. No college professor will ever read your blog, and will simply roll their eyes at your outrage should you decide to pester them with phone calls. Your ineffectual indignation, coupled with your smug, world-weary tirades, only demonstrate that you are spending a little too much time blogging and not enough trying to bring about meaningful change. By the way, I too would deduct points for mislabeling or not labeling a graph. Attention to detail is important. The fact that you wasted so much time and sarcasm on a minor assignment, however, is worrying. You seem to champion, at time, the "helicoptor parents", and proudly count yourself among their number. This is disturbing. In time, you will see the consequences this is having on your children.

-- KtmGuest - 03 Jul 2006

KTM Guest--

Wow--your comments seem a bit harsh. I am both a parent and a college professor. My teaching philosophy is that the teacher sets the tone. I am also always mindful that as a teacher, I am modeling behavior.

Do I want them to take responsibility? Yes, I do, and I model that at every opportunity. For example, I broke my ankle last semester and was not allowed to put weight bearing pressure on it for six weeks. Just getting through the day became a challenge. However, I missed only one class and that was to have the cast put on; that appointment was dictated by the orthopedic surgeon. I also took great pains to connect the dots for my freshmen students to make sure they understood that while it was a challenge for me to be there, I was still there. I turned my misfortune into a teaching moment.

I am also mindful that while I am the teacher, I am also a student. My goal is to always be learning--in every way possible. That means I have to see the world through my students' eyes and it also means that I have to take responsibility for my own actions as well. Translated into action for me, that means that I am actively engaged in the process of learning.

For example, I can rant and rave and tell students that if they don't proofread their papers, there will be consequences. However, what I have learned from getting in the trenches with students is that sometimes it's a lack of knowing how to proofread effectively (it's a skill that can be taught), and sometimes it truly is carelessness. However, sometimes the students just don't know the rules of grammar, which is an entirely different problem. If you don't know how to use a comma properly in the first place, then proofreading isn't going to help all that much.

I also understand full well the importance of paying attention to detail. Without that skill, the students will have a hard time passing their introductory accounting class. So, in the freshmen class that I teach, my goal is to purposely and mindfully structure my assignments in such a way that I am helping the students grow that skill. Put simply, if I want my students to develop a skill or habit, then I need to teach it, and then provide opportunities for them to practice it--to reinforce the skill.

I also have the philosophy that if what I'm doing isn't achieving the objective I wish to achieve, I need to examine and understand why that is. Did I explain (teach) the concept in a way that the students understood it? Were my expectations clearly stated, or did I unintentionally surprise them? Is it them, or is it me or is there a design flaw with the system? In short, I suppose I approach such matters as possible problems to be solved. That is, I use critical thinking and problem solving skills.

Don't misunderstand me--I am both confident and competent. It's just that I am always striving for perfection--to do the best job that I can at teaching and at reaching the maximum number of students possible. I want all of my students to succeed and I want to help them do so, if they are motivated to do so. And I want them to understand that they are accountable for their actions and that there are consequences for their actions.

I don't know what grade or subject you teach, or whether your students are motivated or not, but I am curious about your method for handing out homework papers. Why is it that the students don't seem to able to pick up the papers on the way out the door? If they are typical kids, the minute that class is over, they may be focused on talking to their friends. Or, perhaps they are trying to get to their next class on time. Or, maybe they just don't care. That's a different and more difficult issue and one that would require a bit more reflection and analysis. But, assuming that they do care and are motivated to succeed, why not hand the papers out during class?

I also want my students to understand that they are accountable for their actions and that there are consequences for their actions, both positive and negative. However, I am also mindful of what I call the human motivation factor. I always want a student to believe that they can succeed if they are willing to put in the time and effort that is needed to do so. That is not the same as a harsh and punitive approach to grading.

For example, the infamous deduction of 20 points for failing to label the graph. In the first place, that seems pretty harsh for 6th graders. Did the teacher just assume that this procedure had been taught to automaticity in the earlier grades? Or, did she teach it herself? Did she provide a rubric with the consequences spelled out? Don't misunderstand me--I think that it's appropriate that this is automatic. My question is--did she teach it, or know full well that someone else had? Also, what was her objective with deducting 20 points--was it "teach a lesson?" If so, what lesson was she trying to teach? And perhaps what I'm also getting it (and what the parents are getting at) is: What is her teaching philosophy? Why is she doing what she is doing? What is she trying to accomplish, and are the methods she is using the best way to achieve this?

I would guess that the KTM readers and the IMS teachers want the same thing. We want our kids to have solid, fundamental skills, we want them to love learning, and to be respectful of others. We want them to pay attention to detail, to be careful readers, and to learn to take responsibility for their actions. In short, we want our children to have all the tools they need to be able to survive and thrive in the world as productive citizens. However, what we may not agree on is the most effective method to get there. And that, I think, is the source of frustration for many parents.

-- KarenA - 03 Jul 2006

Ktm guest

Not only do I "seem" to count myself amongst helicopter parents, I have the t-shirt!

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

As to college, my husband is a college professor and I taught college as well.

We know exactly what a student needs to succeed in college.

Listen and learn.

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

One last thing.

We have a set of informal rules concerning ad hominem attacks. We don't make them.

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

It's too bad the post about Ed's nationalism course disappeared in the server meltdown.

He did for his students what our middle school refuses to do for our own child.

He taught them what they needed to know to succeed.

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

Your ineffectual indignation, coupled with your smug, world-weary tirades, only demonstrate that you are spending a little too much time blogging and not enough trying to bring about meaningful change.

This is an interesting comment....similar to the one made by our earlier ktm guest.

I'm wondering whether this is a meme (I don't say that sarcastically).

I've noticed that the middle school has a number of parent-bamboozling themes that are incredibly successful. Often the point is to set the terms of argument and speech by declaring certain opinions or actions legitimate and others illegitimate.

That's the point here; I shouldn't be complaining, I should be "working for meaingful change." The terms within which I must function are being set by a complete stranger.

Well, I guess she's just going to have to take points off!

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

Honored KTM Guest:

Many of us who comment, including Catherine, work for meaningful change in ways other than voicing opinions on blogs. There are some of us who have testified at public hearings of school boards, raising concerns over a textbook that school boards propose to adopt, presenting well-reasoned comments from knowledgable people in the field (mathematicians and teachers), as well as test scores. We are too often told that what we present are only ideological arguments, short on fact and long on opinion. I can only ask "How stupid do teachers and school boards think we are?"

We are a group of highly educated parents who collectively happen to know quite a bit about math. This group also contains some teachers. Despite our backgrounds, however, we are told by teachers, school boards and the educational establishment that our concerns do not agree with what "research shows" about how math is to be taught. When pressed to show what "research" they are talking about, they pull out the usual list of suspects: studies by Fennema, Carpenter, Kaimi, Carroll, Hiebert. A casual glance at the research, after one excludes all the references to opinions expressed in each other's "research" studies, show that the experiments are poorly designed and non-conclusive.

Still, we are essentially told to shut up and sit down.

So when a teacher takes of 20 points for mislabeling a graph when all other aspects of a problem are done correctly, it may be that it is a straw breaking the camel's back. And given that ed schools seem to champion the idea of "divergent thinking", and hold in disdain the idea of "convergent thinking" it seems this teacher can exercise some divergent thinking herself, and get away from her "convergent thinking" rubric, assuming that such rubric exists.

-- BarryGarelick - 03 Jul 2006

not enough trying to bring about meaningful change

Note that ktm guest doesn't say that parents could bring about meaningful change. No, ktm guest says that parents should be spending their time trying to bring about meaningful change. Regardless presumably of whether there is a snowball's chance in hell of achieving it or not.

-- TracyW - 03 Jul 2006

shut up and sit down

yup

heard it

been forced to do it, too

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

Tracy

bingo!

one of these days I've got to figure out the...."middle school narrative".....

There's a huge amount of scolding, do you notice? HUGE. This is the tone we get at our middle school ALL THE TIME - and it's not remotely the tone we hear at the K-5 schools, which are cheerful places.

Suddenly, when you hit middle school, you confront people who feel it is their duty to TELL YOU WHAT AN EFFED-UP MESS YOU ARE AS A PARENT AND A HUMAN BEING!

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

Another reason to get rid of character education.

It's all about teachers judging goodness & badness.

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

and allow me to add: the 20-points-off were deducted because Christopher failed to show his work in the way Ms. K wanted it shown and not one of the three of us could understand her directions.

The whole big deal with the 20 points is that we thought Christopher had shown his work!

To this day we none of us has any idea what he was supposed to have done.

Christopher's closest friend in the class got the same 20 points taken off, so no luck on the "homework buddy" front, either.

I think 20 points off for not showing work is ridiculous under any circumstances, but the point is: HE SHOWED HIS WORK

AT LEAST, IT LOOKED LIKE WORK TO US

AND AND AND — WE'LL HAVE OUR KID SHOW WORK ANY WAY SHE WANTS IT SHOWN, WE DON'T CARE

WE JUST HAVE TO KNOW WHAT IT IS

WE'RE NOT MIND READERS!

ETC.!

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

let us PRAY the new principal will SET A BETTER TONE

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

it's not impossible

he has a "background in special ed" which should be a good sign...

-- CatherineJohnson - 03 Jul 2006

A storm blew through while I was away!

this was a case of "Look what you made me do."

The teacher made a mistake, and the children were supposed to correct for it - make it better.

Catherine, just to clarify -- Did this teacher set a trap to "teach the kids a lesson", or did she forget to hand out the homework and yelled at the kids the following day?

I assumed it was a trap, and I may be wrong.

When I say Because, after all, she wouldn't want to be authoritarian and just tell the kids what to do and when to do it

I of course mean that I think the teacher should be more authoritarian. Which I define as her taking the personal responsibility to examine her instructional plan and tell kids directly what she wants, and when she wants it. In fact, she could even teach a particular skill she thinks is really important to the kids, all by herself.

As Karen said, Did she provide a rubric with the consequences spelled out?

But if not, she could at least put what she wants in writing so that parents can teach it at home.

Whether the teacher saddles up or the parent saddles up, it looks like this:

Tell kids you want everybody to come up to your desk every day at the end of class and form a line, and tell them each kid must ask if there is any homework before walking out the classroom door. Have the kids practice lining up and asking you for homework. Sound ridiculous? Only if the teacher was never serious. I have been accused in the past of accusing teachers of not being serious, and I admit it's a failing of mine.

A teacher can tell kids she wants labels that look exactly so on a graph, if it is so important to her as a teacher, because her instructional design values the omission of those labels at... 20 points. 20 points is Big Money! It's not Chump Change... instructionally speaking. Tell!

-- BeckyC - 04 Jul 2006

"No college professor will ever read your blog, and will simply roll their eyes at your outrage should you decide to pester them with phone calls."

I taught college math and computer science for years (a few years back), so your statement is just not true. The only thing that college professors will roll their eyes at are the incredibly bad curricula, low expectations, and teaching methods in grades K-8.

"Your ineffectual indignation, coupled with your smug, world-weary tirades, only demonstrate that you are spending a little too much time blogging and not enough trying to bring about meaningful change."

Obviously, you haven't read much of this blog. By-the-way, how is this meaningful change done when schools only want parents to bake cookies, check homework, and go along with the program. What if parents (with degrees and many years experience in a subject area) think that the school could use some help in selecting curricula and teaching methods? They are ignored. I know this from direct personal experience. Also, wasn't it Catherine who was shot down by the school when she wanted to teach after-school math?

"You seem to champion, at time, the "helicoptor parents", and proudly count yourself among their number. This is disturbing. In time, you will see the consequences this is having on your children."

The consequence is that her son will know that she cares enough about his education to not let the schools really screw it up. The blog is called "Kitchen Table Math" for a reason - the schools are not doing their job.

As Catherine says:

"We know exactly what a student needs to succeed in college."

Our public schools think that it's OK to offer only algebra lite in 8th grade for all students. "Our kids hold their own", they say. They will not offer more - on purpose. Parents have no say in the matter - we tried. Please don't talk to us about "meaningful change".

You want meaningful change? I call it school choice.

-- SteveH - 04 Jul 2006

Summer Reading for the Helicoptor Parents: "A Nation of Wimps" in Psychology Today. Just type the title in a search engine, click, and read away to gain some real perspective.

-- KtmGuest - 04 Jul 2006

and read away to gain some real perspective.

If only you would take your own advice.

Throwing up a strawman article doesn't make your point. No one here wants to take the "bumps" out of childhood. Caring about the quality of your child's education and trying to do something about it is not hobbling your child for the future. Did you not even bother to read any of the previous posts?

-- SusanS - 04 Jul 2006

Susan, I'm surprised our guest came back. And I was hoping he/she/it was going to ask me about the cool 12s composition and decomposition worksheets I mentioned in my earliest post. Now I'm disappointed. ;)

I'm like the hopeful neighbor who brings over every last one of my vacation pictures...

-- BeckyC - 04 Jul 2006

Hey Becky,

You are so funny.

You will have to let us see some of those worksheets sometime. You know how we are around here about worksheets. Yours sound great!

-- SusanS - 04 Jul 2006

KTM Guest, Parent involvement in education is the critical factor in a high quality education. I come from a long line of teachers. I never once heard any good teacher (related to me or otherwise) complain about involved parents with high expectations. Administrators on the other hand . . . . .

In time, you will see the consequences this is having on your children

I imagine this is true! One of the best things about blogs like KTM is to help parents feel less isolated by the crazy things we have to deal with at the schools. If the schools really believed that education is important, they wouldn't quit teaching new stuff after the national tests are completed in the Spring.

Despite the yearly falling of scores on the SAT, the failure of most kids to take and pass AP level courses, the high high school dropout rate (nearing 13%) and the low 4 year college acceptance rate in my town, my school board and administrators continue to proclaim themselves much improved and doing a heckuva job. Our 4th graders did great on the NCLB tests. But our HS kids are still unprepared for college level courses. See what a success we are? When I asked about the poor HS performance on the college indicators, I was told, "somebody has to be the mechanics and plumbers of the world"

Congratulations, we've achieved a high level of mediocrity. This is why helicopter parents persist. We need more than a good showing on a low level mastery test. We NEED kids prepared to go to college and succeed.

-- LynnGuelzow - 04 Jul 2006

KTM Guest--

I took you up on your suggestion to read "A Nation of Wimps." The article is interesting and thought-provoking, to be sure.

However, there is a difference, in my mind, between parents shielding and protecting children from failure and children receiving ineffective instruction.

I think that what the KTM crowd is frustrated by, collectively, is a failure of competent instruction, whether it's the curriculum, the instructor, or both.

When we started our child in Kumon halfway through her third grade year, we weren't looking for an accommodation to help her feel better about herself, nor were we shielding and protecting her from failure. Instead, we were frustrated by our district's spiraling, failure to teach to mastery approach to math in elementary school.

I remember patiently explaining to our district's curriculum director that we were paying for KUMON not because our child was slow in math (she's actually quite good at math), nor were we super parents trying to push her ahead. Instead, through Kumon, we were simply providing her with the opportunity to acquire the necessary fundamental arithmetic background that she would need in order to be successful in Algebra, Geometry and Trigonometry.

For two and a half years, we schlepped our child to KUMON two times a week and made sure she completed her daily math worksheets. We, not her teachers, were the ones who made sure that she learned to line up her numbers accurately and neatly and that she learn the importance of accuracy and paying attention to detail. We were also the ones who dealt firsthand with her frustration at having to learn long division. Let's just say that there was crying and screaming involved, and mostly on her part.

Does this make us helicopter parents? If so, then that's a title I'll gladly accept. As a result of her Kumon experience, she gained both competence and confidence with math. She also learned to pay attention to detail, that accuracy matters, and to persevere even when the path is both hard and bumpy.

Were we taking the bumps out of childhood? No, we were the ones putting the bumps in her path.

KTM Guest, I have no reason to doubt that you are a dedicated and committed teacher. But engage in a real conversation with us on the issues that we are raising.

-- KarenA - 04 Jul 2006

I'm afraid that Karen is rather more charitable than I am.

I take our latest Guest to be a typical product of a modern ed. school: deeply lacking in subject knowledge, inculcated with counter-productive and fallacious theories, and imbued with an unwarranted impression of general superiority to misguided parents.

Oh, and probably a union officer.

I might be wrong, though.

-- DougSundseth - 04 Jul 2006

I think Catherine had it right when she conceptualised the problem with Christopher's school way of teaching responsibility as not a problem with the school teaching responsibility per se, but a problem that if Christopher wasn't perfectly responsible and organised he didn't learn the material.

The middle school appears to have been teaching responsibility in a fail-disastrous way. If Christopher failed to do his maths homework because he was disorganised, the school had no back-up to ensure that Christoper learnt his maths anyway.

It should be possible for a school to teach responsibility in a fail-safe way. So, eg, rather than just giving a 0 because a kid failed to turn in their homework, insist instead that they stay behind after school to do it, and to do some extra practice. Then the kid learns the maths - and perhaps some responsibility (if I don't do the homework the night before, I have to do extra homework the next day).

-- TracyW - 04 Jul 2006

"A Nation of Wimps"

Let me see if I can reduce the reason for KTM down to the basics.

1. We send our kids to public school.

2. In third grade, we realize that the school doesn't expect mastery of the multiplication table (yet) and are still trying to get many kids to master their adds and subtracts to 20.

3. The schools tell us that they want kids to "like" math, feel good about themselves, and discover things hands-on in child-centered groups with the teacher as a guide on the side. Anything else is "Drill and Kill" and is not appropriate for learning math.

4. KTM discusses these issues and lets parents know what steps they can take to ensure that their kids get a proper mathematical foundation - because the schools are not doing their jobs.

In fact, the opposite of KTMGuest's observation is true. I don't think Christopher is being coddled. He is being challenged at home because his school isn't doing the job. He is learning math at home. He is being taught that learning is not always fun and easy. He is learning the value of hard work.

It is actually the K-8 schools that are creating a nation of wimps. LOW EXPECTATIONS, FEEL-GOOD LEARNING, SPIRALING (CIRCLING) CURRICULA, and SOCIAL PROMOTION. This is the fundamental problem with education. Schools are FIGHTING against setting even the lowest grade-level expectations. Schools let kids slide along with very low expectations and then try to turn the screws in middle school and high school. If the kids cannot cut it, they are either crybabies or wimps, is that it?

Bad teaching is bad teaching. A bad curriculum is a bad curriculum. They are NOT ways to build character.

Maybe I need to repeat this.

All of the parents contributing to KTM set high standards and expect a lot from their kids. High standards do not create wimps. We also expect content knowledge and competence from our schools and teachers. Schools cannot do whatever they want and expect parents to be ignorant wimps.

There is nothing wimpish about KTM parents and their kids. Their kids are most likely the best or hardest working students in the class; not because of the schools, but in spite of them.

School choice is the answer.

-- SteveH - 05 Jul 2006

As per SunSeth^?'s reponse, you couldn't be more off base. I have my BA and MA in literature, recognize many of the current ed theory as fallacious, and generally dislike union officers. Having taken a number of ed. classes in addition, I have usually found them to be downright insulting. Furthermore, I have always had a strong rapport with parents and students. You make a strong point in your response, although unwittingly. Your hasty, dismissive characterization shows that, rather than address the ideas put forth, you would rather attack the messenger. TracyW^? suggests that teachers "insist" that students stay after school to make up work. Undoubtedly, that would lead to posts on this very site: "Ms. So-and-So made only three students stay after school, and one of them was MY SON! And they were ALL BOYS!" SusanS^? - how on earth was that a "straw article"? That was certainly a creative use of terminology. This article relates directly to many things that I have read on this website. BeckyC^? - I'm sure the worksheets are stellar. I, like you, become overly excited when I find great material. KarenA^? - Like your daughter, I struggled with the very same unit in math. It's a big jump in complexity from earlier units. It is natural for students to struggle with this. Many students, including myself, need additional help. The majority of teachers offer this. You cannot say that teachers are not doing their job in the classroom unless you are there. Of course parents can sometimes more effectively explain certain content to their children. You're not surrounded by 20 other kids, you know more clearly how your child thinks, and you are the primary authority in their lives. If Johnny doesn't do his homework, can I ground him? Can I take away his sleepovers or TV time? No. SteveH^?, if you think Christopher isn't being coddled, then you are deluding yourself. He is learning that any problem he has in school or in life can be solved through the intervention of his parents. Of course, I didn't respond to every talking point here but I do have work to do today. I expect more of the silly, "Notice ktmguest said TRY to bring about meaningful change, rather than BRING ABOUT meaningful change," et cetera, et cetera. What I found interesting is that only KarenA^? recognized the merits of the article, while everyone else just sounded defensive.

-- KtmGuest - 05 Jul 2006

[Intemperate response deleted. No more troll food from me.]

-- DougSundseth - 05 Jul 2006

Well Doug, at least you got her/him to respond.

how on earth was that a "straw article"? That was certainly a creative use of terminology

Nothing creative at all. A straw man fallacy is when you misrepresent someone else's position so that it can be attacked more easily. It's a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that have been made. I believe I explained how you did that in my post.

I enjoyed the article (I'm a big David Elkind fan), but it had nothing to do with what we talk about around here.

You cannot say that teachers are not doing their job in the classroom unless you are there._

So, teachers can only be accountable to... who then? Since no one can be in their classrooms.

I would say if your child is not learning the basic skills he is supposed to learn then there's every possibility that the teacher isn't teaching it properly. At the very least you can't take teaching quality off of the table and only look at the parents and students as the sole reasons for failure, which is what I see a lot of schools doing. Let's look at all of the reasons Johnny may not be learning.

-- SusanS - 05 Jul 2006

ktm guest

I'm going to ask that you make no further comments about Christopher.

We all talk about our children here. None of us makes negative comments about each other's children, or about any other children.

We certainly don't level threats against their futures, e.g. "you are effectively damning your child to a failed college career."

We also have an informal policy against ad hominem arguments and Comment thread slugfests.

You're welcome to read and comment, but you'll have to follow the same rules the rest of us do.

Let me say this. You could be right. I could be dooming my child, turning him into a "wimp," etc.

Every parent, to some degree, flies blind. I'll find out most of what I did wrong when it's too late for me to fix it.

I'll say, too (warming to my subject!) that I've been worried, all year long, that Ed and I are making a bad move.

However, my worry hasn't been that we're overprotective.

My worry is that we're underprotective.

We have been told by one parent after another that, "The school will come after you. The school will retaliate against your child." I have yet to meet a single parent who thinks it's safe to oppose or even question policy in the middle school. (This is not true of the K-5 schools.)

Far from overprotecting our child, we've risked exposing him to danger. No parent is willing to be as visible as we have been — and I have to wonder, constantly, whether they're right.

So, yes. We may be playing with fire.

But not the fire you think.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Let's just say that there was crying and screaming involved, and mostly on her part.

great line!

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

hmmm....I see I've mentioned the "ad hominem" rule twice.

That's not good.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Becky

oh, that never occurred to me.....

I have no idea what was going on in the class (and ktm guest is right that a 6th grader's account always skews wildly from the teacher's account....)

I took it to be simply that Ms. K (this is the other Ms. K, the English teacher) was burned out at year's end & was losing her patience. I certainly had lost my own patience by then. I'm still trying to get it back.

She seemed to be constantly harping on the kids about responsibility, which was something she hadn't done earlier in the year.

Assuming Christopher's account bears some relationship to reality, it sounds like what happened was that she just didn't get around to handing out the whole batch of homework - ran out of time, or was working with some kids in the class when the bell rang - something like that.

She was mad (I gather) because the kids knew there was homework, knew two kids had been given the homework, and then didn't take it upon themselves to stay after school and ask her for the homework or call up their homework buddies to get the homework (how that was going to work given the fact that only two kids actually had the homework, I don't know...this is what I mean when I say I think Ms. K was basically fried at that point. She's in a Ph.D. program in addition to teaching.)

I questioned Christopher as closely as I could to find out whether he did or did not know that, yes, there was homework.

I couldn't figure it out.

I think he had a dim notion that she'd given out homework to a couple of kids.

I didn't bug her about it, but I did sympathize with Christopher (though not intensely....)

Basically, from afar, this is a case of someone messing up (not getting the homework handed out to everyone) and then getting mad at someone else for her own mistake.

If she'd said to the kids, "I didn't get all the homework handed out yesterday, and you need to do homeowork to learn, so please come ask me for the homework if you don't get it" that would have been great.

Once again, what I object to is the chronic negative tone of the school.

It's like my friend said, the school motto is: "Do this or you're effed."

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Becky

Whether the teacher saddles up or the parent saddles up, it looks like this:

Tell kids you want everybody to come up to your desk every day at the end of class and form a line, and tell them each kid must ask if there is any homework before walking out the classroom door. Have the kids practice lining up and asking you for homework. Sound ridiculous? Only if the teacher was never serious. I have been accused in the past of accusing teachers of not being serious, and I admit it's a failing of mine.

A teacher can tell kids she wants labels that look exactly so on a graph, if it is so important to her as a teacher, because her instructional design values the omission of those labels at... 20 points. 20 points is Big Money! It's not Chump Change... instructionally speaking. Tell!

ok, I didn't need to write that last comment - this is what I meant!

YES!

We're happy to follow the rules, and tell our kid he has to follow the rules (most of them, anyway).

but to do that we have to know what the rules are

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Lynn

When I asked about the poor HS performance on the college indicators, I was told, "somebody has to be the mechanics and plumbers of the world"

gasp

I get a variant of this every time I raise international standards.

"It's apple and oranges."

"American schools can't do what European schools do."

And that's it!

We can't do it!

That's an answer!

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

You cannot say that teachers are not doing their job in the classroom unless you are there.

right

this is a big issue for me, the constant assertions that parents can't evaluate teachers or administrators in any way by parents

As a parent and a taxpayer, I reject that.

If Christopher spends an entire year in a teacher's class and I have to reteach the subject over summer, the school has not done it's job.

Whether the teacher or the school or both are at fault, I can't say - although I know for a fact that other teachers have successfully taught this particular course.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Tracy

yes, ditto

I like Carol Gambill's approach, but I'm sure there are many others.

She gives her top-of-the-period quiz each day, and only asks to see the homework if the student fails the quiz.

If the student hasn't done the homework, the student stays in at recess or lunch and does it.

At our school the teachers don't give assessments for learning and don't look at the homework.

I don't think Ms. Kahl corrected a single homework assignment this year.

I corrected them all myself, and had Christopher re-do the problems he missed.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Steve H

On this score, I think the results are probably in.

Christopher really has gotten the message that his education is extremely important to us.

This is another area where the worry I have is so different from the worries Psychology Today wants me to have.....I worry that I've taken such a hard line on math that he'll refuse ever to look at it again once he's in college and can make his own decisions.

In other words, here, too, I'm concerned about being too hard as a parent, not too soft.

That's why I'm so thrilled with the Saxon 1/2 plan.

Using Saxon 1/2, he's independent; he doesn't have his mom haranguing him about math.

He said this weekend, "I like that I can do Saxon Math on my own. There's less arguing."

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Steve

ok, I just got to your comment - why do I write comments before reading the whole thread??

You've already said what I meant to say.....

He is being taught that learning is not always fun and easy. He is learning the value of hard work.

I HOPE that's what he's learning, and I think it is.

But he certainly does not live in a house where his parents are going easy on him where education is concerned.

He is expected to learn math and everything else to the absolute best of his ability.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Bad teaching is bad teaching. A bad curriculum is a bad curriculum. They are NOT ways to build character.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

oh this is funny - I started reading Psych Today, and it's voicing a criticism I have of the schools

must get to that later

Briefly, what I find is that schools don't allow any toughness in kids at all

we have "zero-tolerance" for aggression, including aggression in self-defense

In our school, if a child hits Christopher he will be suspended for hitting back.

We know a boy who was suspended because he came to the defense of a boy who was being physically pushed around by several other boys.

One boy took on several boys to defend his friend, and he was punished by the school

the kids are constantly told that they can't get mad, can't fight back, can't stand up for themselves, etc.

The right thing to do is to run and tell the principal.

Our kids have also had large school assemblies where they've been directed to think of reasons why a child broke a rule. They are told to "understand."

Many character education programs directly instruct children in wimpery.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

"He is learning that any problem he has in school or in life can be solved through the intervention of his parents."

This just isn't true, and you would know that if you went back and read many more posts over the last year rather than attack after reading (apparently) one thread. You also ignore the problem of bad teaching and curricula. Do you think that everything is the student's responsibility or fault? If not, then who and how does one come to this judgment?

Rather than talk about just the one instance in question, you felt the need to point to some overall theory of what is going on here. It seems that you think this is not just about reasonable teaching methods, but about parents helping their kids get away with something. This is incorrect. You have to make a better case for yourself than that and deal with the details of the situation.

"I didn't respond to every talking point here but I do have work to do today."

You seemed to have time for several comments already, so I await your response to many other important talking points that were raised. Details, please. You were the one who opened this discussion up to much more than this one episode.

By the way, you don't think we have work to do? Do you think that we enjoy paying astronomical property taxes and then find that we have to spend time at home teaching our kids what the schools cannot or won't? Do you think we like seeing homework assignments where the schools didn't prepare our kids enough to do the task? It could be that our kids don't tell us exactly what is going on in school, but don't you think we all take that into consideration? I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall of my son's classroom. I really, REALLY, don't think his teacher would like that.

"Notice ktmguest said TRY to bring about meaningful change, rather than BRING ABOUT meaningful change," et cetera, et cetera."

I'm not sure what this means. KTM parents have been doing this for years with little or no success. You would know this if you read KTM regularly. That is probably the main reason for KTM. KTM is so much more than discussing individual parent-student-teacher problems.

"Defensive?"

I don't think so. I think the article is typical of hot button, sounds good, has a grain of truth in it, psychology. If the premise is true at all, then schools play a big part of this so-called wimp factor. I stated the reasons why above. The main one is low expectations. Do you know what a "do over" is? Then, all of a sudden (in middle school or high school), schools expect kids to be perfect little learners. If not, then it MUST be their fault.

KTM does not exist to set low expectations or to get away with something. It is quite the opposite. We expect a lot from ourselves (teaching at home), of our kids (doing math at home and during the summer), AND schools. You've come to the wrong forum to push your "Wimp Theory".

KTM is Anti-Wimp.

-- SteveH - 05 Jul 2006

Not to change the subject here, but did you see that WhatWorksClearinghouse^? has recently put up their reviews of Character Education? I don't see the program that my school district adheres to up there, but the results are not surprising. No significant improvement in behavior as a result of any of the programs.

-- LynnGuelzow - 05 Jul 2006

Catherine, You should be a little more careful with your words, although I appreciate that that is not exactly your style. I have never made any criticism of your son. It was you that I criticized. I agree with you, however, on the ineffectiveness of the character education program. Good idea, poorly executed. Steve H, Your comment, "you don't think we have work to do?" is typical of the nitpicking comment, "notice KTMguest said TRY to bring about meaningful change..." which an earlier user posted. Of course I realize you have work to do. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Furthermore, suggesting the article was "sounds good, hot topic, grain of truth" psychology is dismissive of the great points the article made. Psychology Today generally does not publish "grain of truth" psychology. If by hot topic you mean trendy and in the news, I have to tell you that you are not quite the trailblazing pioneer that you may think. This has been a concern of educators for at least 20 years! I appreciate the value of work at home and during the summer, and admire the efforts of everyone here who is trying to better their child. What I dislike are the personal attacks on teachers and pervading holier-than-thou attitude. And to say "it just isn't true" that you are coddling, only time will tell... Thanks, SusanS^?, I know what straw man means, but this article directly related to the helicoptor parenting that I first commented on. Yet you fail to see relevance? As for something else Catherine mentioned regarding parental evaluation, I (surprise) totally agree. There should, for instance, be far more than ONE parent/teacher night a year. Nothing beats face to face time.

-- KtmGuest - 05 Jul 2006

When I asked about the poor HS performance on the college indicators, I was told, "somebody has to be the mechanics and plumbers of the world"

I don't know about you guys, but I want my mechanics and plumbers to be able to compare fractions and metric quantities. If I ever have construction done on a house, I want trabajadores who can compare, add, subtract, multiply, and divide fractions.

Just because people are employed in jobs where they get their hands dirty doesn't mean those people are stupid, or should be allowed to be stupid.

Besides, have you seen how much mechanics and plumbers make these days?

-- GoogleMaster - 05 Jul 2006

"I have my BA and MA in literature...."

Non Sequitur

"Catherine, You should be a little more careful with your words, although I appreciate that that is not exactly your style."

Yet another argumentum ad hominem, and a particularly nasty one at that.

"Psychology Today generally does not publish "grain of truth" psychology."

Appeal to Authority.

"is typical of the nitpicking comment"

Red Herring

"I, like you, become overly excited when I find great material."

Begging the Question (also a back-handed ad hominem)

"If by hot topic you mean trendy and in the news, I have to tell you that you are not quite the trailblazing pioneer that you may think."

Argument from Popularity

"What I dislike are the personal attacks on teachers and pervading holier-than-thou attitude."

Sweeping Generalization

"The majority of teachers offer this."

Anecdotal Evidence

"Your hasty, dismissive characterization shows that, rather than address the ideas put forth, you would rather attack the messenger."

Tu Quoque

Bingo.

-- DougSundseth - 05 Jul 2006

As someone who, at one time in the past, had the same boiling over about this site, let me just say this to KtmGuest^?:

The views from the majority of commenters on this site represent diverse, but not necessarily divergent, perspectives. That is, they have a more-or-less unified purpose--to push back on underperformance in schools. It's not that they're unaware of the various strengths of schools or of their own weaknesses or of their children's weaknesses. It's just that they're doing a job. One job. If only for the sake of making the topic of education fresh and interesting, someone's got to do it.

-- JdFisher - 05 Jul 2006

Oh, and probably a union officer.

Doug I had just read Catherine's interesting post on the Sun review of Mosier's biography of Grant, so I was trying to figure out whether you meant Halleck? or McClellan^??

I'm thinking Halleck. Occupying the population centers, but not winning the war. What do you think?

-- BeckyC - 05 Jul 2006

Snrrk.

8-)

Any direct response I could make would probably be a violation of the rule against ad hominem attacks. That said, the arguments seem more dedicated to shifting blame and presenting the appearance of competence than accepting responsibility and achieving success.

-- DougSundseth - 05 Jul 2006

JdFisher^?--

Where did your blog go??? I enjoy reading it!

-- KarenA - 05 Jul 2006

Jd Fisher,

Yes, where did your blog go??

-- SusanS - 05 Jul 2006

TracyW? suggests that teachers "insist" that students stay after school to make up work. Undoubtedly, that would lead to posts on this very site: "Ms. So-and-So made only three students stay after school, and one of them was MY SON! And they were ALL BOYS!"

Perhaps, but at least the kids in question would be learning maths. And perhaps responsibility.

What do you think teachers exist for? Babysitting?

-- TracyW - 05 Jul 2006

KTM Guest--

I don't wish to be contentious with you, because I am still trying to engage you in a real conversation on the merits. Call me idealistic, but I still have faith that you are up to the task.

Allow me to clarify my post about my child, Kumon, and long division. We didn't take our child to Kumon because she was struggling in math. We took our child to Kumon because of the spiraling, failure to teach to mastery curriculum that our school district was using. Put simply, she was not being taught the traditional arithmetic algorithms. I can't emphasize this point enough. This is one of the major issues in the "math wars" debate.

It wasn't acceptable for us that she simply be taught how to do something conceptually and then be handed a calculator. For example, we wanted her to know how to manipulate fractions using pencil and paper, and not be handed a calculator to do the work for her.

I used the long division example to make the point that far from coddling our child, it was quite the opposite. Just because it was hard, as new concepts typically are, was not an excuse to not have do it. This is the point that Steve made in his post. It simply wasn't the case that she was struggling with the math that was being taught in school. She wasn't. Our issue was that she wasn't being taught the math she would need in order to be successful in higher math.

-- KarenA - 05 Jul 2006

Sigh. Someone complained to my work about a post, and I was forced to take it down.

I'm slowly picking up the pieces here:

http://www.textsavvy.blogspot.com/

-- JdFisher - 05 Jul 2006

I'm in the midst of reading "A Nation of Wimps." I was going to wait until I finished it to try to write a coherent reply but right now I'm laughing too hard to finish. I never realized that being able to order pizza on a cell phone is promoting "fragility by weakening self-regulation." Thanks goodness we always order out using our landline; in fact, we don't even have the pizza place on speed dial!

(Does telling someone that you'll call them on your cell phone when you are finished at the dentist so you can meet up with them count as thinking ahead? Or is it better for them to sit in the waiting room reading old Golf Digests when your dentist is running late?)

-- SusanJ - 05 Jul 2006

ok, I haven't read the rest of the thread, but let me restate:

ktm guest: don't mention Christopher again

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Becky - do you have worksheets???

new ones???

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

~~I am SERIOUSLY hoping ktm guest is not a teacher.~~

[pause]

oops

that was a teensy bit ad hominemish

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Do you think that we enjoy paying astronomical property taxes and then find that we have to spend time at home teaching our kids what the schools cannot or won't?

I know the answer to this one!

No!

We do not!

We do not enjoy paying astronomical property taxes and then find that we have to spend time at home teaching our kids what the schools cannot or won't!

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

speaking of which, I started Andrew on Singapore Math today!

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

KTM is Anti-Wimp

I like that!

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Doug you're amazing.

So now I'm going to have to learn logic, too.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Lynn yes, I HAVE seen What Works. Our program is there. It doesn't work.

What program are you guys using?

IMO, character education per se is a very bad idea.

Also it doesn't work.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Google Master

I don't know about you guys, but I want my mechanics and plumbers to be able to compare fractions and metric quantities. If I ever have construction done on a house, I want trabajadores who can compare, add, subtract, multiply, and divide fractions.

Just because people are employed in jobs where they get their hands dirty doesn't mean those people are stupid, or should be allowed to be stupid.

Besides, have you seen how much mechanics and plumbers make these days?

Didn't someone here once point out that people who work with their hands use math far more often than many people who have information-related jobs?

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Thank you!

That's terrible about your blog - !!

I'm sure that's where the contentious parts of ktm are headed.....at some point they're going to have to come down.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Is there some way for us to point people in your direction without creating problems?

(You'll have to send an email to Carolyn, since my ktm email still doesn't work.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Hi, Susan J

"self-regulation" - now you've got me curious

I'm going to have to read this thing

"self-regulation," it turns out, is huge in educational psychology

at least, judging by the ed psych book that just came in the mail

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

One long-distance call overheard on a recent cross-campus walk: "Hi, Mom. I just got an ice-cream cone; can you believe they put sprinkles on the bottom as well as on top?"

"Kids are constantly talking to parents," laments Cornell student Kramer, which makes them perpetually homesick. Of course, they're not telling the folks everything, notes Portmann. "They're not calling their parents to say, 'I really went wild last Friday at the frat house and now I might have chlamydia. Should I go to the student health center?'"

The perpetual access to parents infantilizes the young, keeping them in a permanent state of dependency. Whenever the slightest difficulty arises, "they're constantly referring to their parents for guidance," reports Kramer. They're not learning how to manage for themselves.

path dependency

this meme - children are too close to their parents - goes back at least one hundred years, I believe

we need a historian in here

remember our principal's speech to parents:

"Your children are mine now."

"This is the year your children will stop talking to you. They talk to us."

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

Thanks, Catherine.

The link above should be enough. Other than that, you can do whatever you want with it. There won't be any problems.

-- JdFisher - 05 Jul 2006

I'll ask Carolyn to change the link on the sidebar - !

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

author, "A Nation of Wimps"

and

Her STD infected their romance

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Jul 2006

"I started Andrew on Singapore Math today!"

I hope you'll keep us updated.

ps. If this were someone about whom I had no prior knowledge, I'd think it a fascinating experiment. Since it's someone I know (well, vicariously, anyway), there's an element of anxiety mixed in too. Good luck to you guys.

pps. Did you see that Language Log (Sally Thomason in this case) had a post on Saturday about Animals in Translation? While the aughor disagrees with some of the conclusions you guys came to, she describes the book as, "... one of the two best books I've read this year ...."

-- DougSundseth - 06 Jul 2006

As Elkind puts it, "Parents and schools are no longer geared toward child development, they're geared to academic achievement."

Now I'm thinking David Elkind needs to get out more.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Jul 2006

oh my gosh!

I'll go look!

thanks!

Andrew did GREAT on his first lesson - although having a child with no fine motor skills circle 5 of 6 objects turns out not to be a happening thing.

The really cool moment was when he learned what "zero" is.

They probably had never mentioned zero at school, and Singapore Math has zero on the first page, represented as a blank frame, with no objects inside to count.

He figured that out after 3 tries.

I swear this kid is going to be a My Left Foot kind of guy.

(I've never seen the movie, and I don't think I have the grit to see it now....)

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Jul 2006

hey!

we can tell Hara Marano our wimp stories here!

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Jul 2006

we can make press inquiries here

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Jul 2006

she appears to be self-publishing a book about wimps

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Jul 2006

Interestingly, Susan O'Hanian, who I gather is an anti-NCLB, pro-constructivism person, has posted A Nation of Wimps on her website.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Jul 2006

Thank you all, I will remember that mechanics and plumbers response the next time I hear it. I should have thought of it myself as my brother-in-law is a finish carpenter and can do amazing things with fractions in his head.

I came to KTM and SingaporeMath afterschooling the same way KarenA^? went to Kumon. My kids are actually getting good grades in math at school. We were worried about the lack of content. Also, I was worried about the poor teaching. There is no way around that one. I don't think all teachers are bad, just this particular one in the 4th grade (who didn't correct homework and didn't assess what she had taught to see if it had been learned). Both my parents and a sister are teachers. I happen to like many teachers including ones that have taught my kids. That said, I don't like ALL teachers. I don't like the lazy ones, and they are definitely out there. I am not thrilled that my school district keeps hiring teachers with most of their experience in special ed, because I find they tend to have low expectations (I'm trying really hard not to overgeneralize).

What sent me to SingaporeMath was fractions and long division, mostly. My 4th grade daughter simply couldn't comprehend fractions and she couldn't do long division. She did so badly with fractions that she got every single problem wrong on a quiz in class. But, Everyday Math doesn't expect mastery of fractions or long division in 4th grade so her abysmal performance on fractions and long division had no effect on her math grade. At school, she is "meeting or exceeding expectations." (We get graded like this now that we have switched to "standards-based assessments.")

Then there was all the crying over homework -- she doesn't like math, she isn't any good at math. Now that we are doing SingaporeMath at home this summer, she loves math. She actually works ahead when I'm not paying attention. She does more work than I assign!! I am thrilled. If this is coddling and creating a wimp -- then I'm all for it.

Finally, maybe we are smoothing the bumps in the road. Actually, I think we may be completely eliminating a huge bump -- that algebra wall in high school that ends so many kids' math and science aspirations. I think if we keep going, that bump won't exist for my kids. They'll really have the tools to fly right over it.

-- LynnGuelzow - 06 Jul 2006

My school district uses Character Counts. I just went to their website -- did you know that it is a research-based program? I did an, admittedly, quick scan of the research highlights -- very impressive, anecdotal, self-assessment, limited time frame (20 day comparison!?), super-hyphenated caveat-type research. I just don't think character can be taught through singing & dancing, assemblies, and simplistic moralizing lessons.

-- LynnGuelzow - 06 Jul 2006

"I just don't think character can be taught through singing & dancing, assemblies, and simplistic moralizing lessons."

Amen to that! To paraphrase a friend of a friend, "My children will have good character even if it kills me!"

My experience thus far has been that teaching my children character is hard work. It means that I don't always automatically take their side and it means that I can't always take the path of least resistance. It also means that they are quite happy to point out my character flaws as well. : )

-- KarenA - 06 Jul 2006

Hi Catherine!

Last week we were in Borders (which is a big deal for us since we have to drive 45 minutes to another town) and I turned around and there was this huge display of your book! I was so excited!! I wanted to tell everyone in the store I knew you. (I know that's not quite true but I feel like I know you.)

-- SusanJ - 06 Jul 2006

"What I dislike are the personal attacks on teachers and pervading holier-than-thou attitude."

Well, you finally get to the point. You should have done it at the start. It doesn't help to call us all helicopter parents who are creating wimps for kids. This broad-brush accusation doesn't help your case, which you didn't make, by the way. You are also avoiding many other issues that were raised.

You have to be more exact about what you call personal attacks rather than pointed criticism. If you think that some criticism was unfair, feel free to make your specific points and try to stay away from broad generalizations. Perhaps, if you make enough specific criticisms that stand up, you can make some generalizations.

As for the "holier-than-thou" attitude, I'm not sure what you mean. The only educational religion that I have every encountered is that pushed by the Ed Schools. Parents see this attitude from the schools all of the time. I have received many holier-than-thou preemptive strikes from my son's teachers. Their arrogance can be palpable. Usually, parents wimp right out under the attack. KTM is anti-wimp.

-- SteveH - 06 Jul 2006

I have received many holier-than-thou preemptive strikes from my son's teachers. Their arrogance can be palpable.

for Steve -- I agree.

It's very difficult to talk about curriculum with teachers. I have gone in with really simple, open yet specific "teach me"-type questions about how will they teach writing or long division to my kids, and I leave knowing less than I did before.

I learn very little about teaching children from my children's teachers.

I'm betting there's a sign inside the teacher's lounge that says "Loose Lips Sink Ships".

All I ever get is a canned explanation that they seem to have memorized from implementation workshop handouts, and that they have practiced in front of a mirror. It's like they are not talking to me at all. Weird feeling!

I go in thinking that teachers might be flattered by me taking an interest in what they teach and how they teach it. Isn't that like me asking an artist about her art? Or a musician about her music?

But no.

Maybe they think there are not enough contact minutes specified in their union contract to even begin talking with me about the ins and outs of teaching long division? The terms of their contract, as mediated by the school principal, are unknown to me.

Maybe it has to do with teachers avoiding the appearance of negotiating any terms of their instructional contract with someone who is not a legitimate bargaining partner? I can't make them teach long division one way or another, so they never let the conversation get off the ground. Unfortunately, I don't get the opportunity to talk with even one teacher to change his or her mind.

Yes, I've composed letters to explain my thinking in the past, but I don't bother any more. Better to stay home and think about how to best implement Singapore.

Maybe it has to do with maintaining the appearance of a monopoly on instruction! Hey, if I really want specific instruction in long division that badly, I can go buy it on the instructional "black market" like every other parent! In fact, I can hire a public school teacher if I live in Catherine's district...

Maybe they just think it's a total waste of time to talk about how they teach. Life's too short. Why worry?

-- BeckyC - 06 Jul 2006

I must be the only KTM commenter living on the West Coast... good night.

-- BeckyC - 06 Jul 2006

I learn very little about teaching children from my children's teachers

That is so true.

I've had one or two excellent teachers that can be wonderful about explanations. I had a second grade teacher who invited me to attend her classes and observe to my hearts content (and she even allowed me to work with kids on content, too). But she is rare.

I did a whole probability and game theory workshop for advanced middle school kids a couple years back and offered to do an abbreviated "fun" version for the 8th grade class that my son was in. No dice. It's back to cookie baking for me. And I had such a great plan! Here was math that could be applied to a real world situation -- careers in law and economics that use math and game theory everyday. You'd think even a constructivist would like to inspire kids with people who use real math in real jobs. I was wrong.

I think too many edprofessionals believe the jargon and rhetoric, that parents who teach content without a background in child development will do more harm than good. I can sort of almost see their point. Sometimes my husband gets carried away with the point he makes and gives the kids far too much information at once. I think his enthusiasm more than makes up for this. The kids know he cares about doing it right.

-- LynnGuelzow - 06 Jul 2006

KTM Guest--

Please be sure to read the "Text Savvy" thread: there is an excellent discussion about some of the problems associated with the Everyday Math Curriculum's approach to teaching fractions.

These are serious people who understand how important it is for kids to have a solid math background. Let me also point out that the KTM crowd is making sure that their own children are learning this content. The easy way out would be for us to just take care of our own kids, thus assuring their success and competitive advantage. However, I think what you will find is that the KTM folks desire that ALL kids have this opportunity. Our concern is genuine. This is what KTM is about.

Again, I invite you to join in on a discussion on the merits. Do you agree or disagree with the comments about Everyday Math?

-- KarenA - 06 Jul 2006

"All I ever get is a canned explanation that they seem to have memorized from implementation workshop handouts, and that they have practiced in front of a mirror. It's like they are not talking to me at all. Weird feeling!"

I've had the exact same feeling. From Kindergarten you start getting the "vibe" from teachers. They talk; we listen. They are the experts; we are not.

In Kindergarten, they tested my son for reading and we had to pry out of them the fact that he could read at a 3rd grade level. We knew he could read because we taught him, using phonics. We asked because we heard that they tested him and we wanted to know the results. They didn't want to tell us!?! Teachers apparently want parents to be involved, but only on their own terms. The last thing they want is to deal with an aggressive parent that makes their life difficult with demands. I can understand this, but this was Kindergarten and we hadn't asked them to do anything yet. Before we could say anything, the Kindergarten teacher immediately went into a canned explanation of how she has had many kids who could read encyclopedias, but they couldn't understand what they were reading. This was before we said a word. Preemptive. My wife and I probably had our mouths open. All designed to keep parents in their place and out of their hair. After that, we didn't bother to even ask whether they had tested him for comprehension. They hadn't. They just don't want parents asking them to do something more that they cannot or are unwilling to do.

Then, there was the time a first grade teacher talked to us parents (sitting in little kids' chairs), using her teacher voice, about the value of MathLand. By that time, even the publisher of MathLand had dumped it. She sounded like she was reading a script.

I have seen many cases where teachers have difficulty separating criticism on teaching methods and curricula from personal attacks when the criticism deals directly with the fundamental assumptions they learned in Ed School. And, when the criticism deals with basic competence, I suppose it's hard not to take it personally. However, discussion of competence is NOT off-the-table. Arguments can become quite personal, but this does not imply that it is an ad hominem attack.

-- SteveH - 06 Jul 2006

"The easy way out would be for us to just take care of our own kids, thus assuring their success and competitive advantage. However, I think what you will find is that the KTM folks desire that ALL kids have this opportunity. Our concern is genuine. This is what KTM is about."

Exactly.

-- SteveH - 06 Jul 2006

This is what I'm hoping for. It's really ugly right now... my kid is fighting his summer program tooth and nail. He tells me every day he hates math, which breaks my heart (I hope he doesn't mean it!). But I just can't afford to have him disadvantaged in the technical domain by an insufficient knowledge of math... that's where he'll have to make his living.

-- CarolynJohnston - 06 Jul 2006

Explain to me, DougSunseth^?, how stating my degrees is a non sequitor when they had just been called into question? As to appealing to authority, don't we all do that in some degree or another? We just appeal to different authorities. As for the red herring, that was a direct reply to something you seemed confused about earlier. Is it a "sweeping generalization" to say that MANY teachers offer extra help? Hardly. Provide anecdotal evidence? Sure: I offer extra help in the mornings and every other day at lunch. Most of my coworkers do the same. My comment about finding new material was in earnest, not, as you took it, a back handed ad-hominem attack.

Your attempt to neatly dismiss me only exposes the flaws in the rather simplistic logic you use. It's as though you just found a glossary of propaganda techniques and are eager to find a use for each one.

As for ad hominem attacks, there are very few who post on this site whose hands are clean. That doesn't make it right, but let's not forget the particularly scathing treatment a Ms. K or Mrs. K received not long ago. Catherine is particularly adept at this kind of attack, as is evidenced above.

Regarding the use of Everyday Math, I am a huge proponent. I originally came to this site to help a friend whose child was struggling in math. However, the first thing I stumbled upon was not a great worksheet or good advice, but a nasty, sarcastic rant about a teachers and schools.

For SteveH^?, I completely agree that many ed schools exude the superior attitude, although we are both guilty of a sweeping generalization here, no? I detest the Academy and Teachers for Tomorrow programs because they teach theory over practice. I have seen these programs destroy some schools in NYC firsthand. I do agree that some teachers launch pre-emptive strikes against parents, probably due to a lack of self-confidence in their own skills. Let us not forget that many parents launch these very same attacks.

As for SusanJ^? and Catherine, you should probably finish reading something before you respond. SusanJ^? chose (of course) a weak anecdote in a strong piece, while Catherine missed the point altogether.

-- KtmGuest - 06 Jul 2006

"Regarding the use of Everyday Math, I am a huge proponent."

Fine, but you won't get a lot of support for EM here, other than the advice to replace or supplement it with Saxon, Singapore, or Kumon math. The reasons are well-documented at KTM and its links. You may have your own opinion, so you are free to comment. However, the general advice is to supplement EM with lots and lots of practice. This is what many schools do. But, as my wife said, "Why are they using a curriculum that they have to supplement?"

For my son, who has EM at his school (poorly supplemented), I supplement it with Singapore Math. I now have the problem that if he keeps up with Singapore Math, he will be so far ahead (where he should be by international standards) of the EM students.

There is lots of this practical advice here. Perhaps you started with the wrong thread and thought that's what KTM is all about.

" ... although we are both guilty of a sweeping generalization here, no?"

Speak for yourself. I have very specific reasons for my generalizations. The biggest one is a culture of low expectations and bad curricula in the lower grades.

"I do agree that some teachers launch pre-emptive strikes against parents, probably due to a lack of self-confidence in their own skills."

That was not the case. It happened many times. These were teachers who were in charge of the curriculum and teacher training. Do you want more specific examples? I can talk about when I was on our School Improvement Team and dominating nature of the teachers over the parents. I was told by the superintendent that I could be on a citizen's curriculum committee. It was never formed and the school went ahead and decided to keep using MathLand. Now, several years later, they have moved to EM. I would have told them that that was the very least they should do.

"Let us not forget that many parents launch these very same attacks."

This makes it OK? Or, are you saying that is really is not a problem?

I have been told by a school committee member that she is sorry we had such a poor experience at the public schools. The implication is that what we experienced was a special case and not related to a systemic problem. About twenty-five percent of the kids in our town go to other schools. Why? Low expectations and bad curricula. I call that systemic.

-- SteveH - 06 Jul 2006

KTM Guest,

As your background is literature, what is it about Everyday Math that has turned you into a proponent? Many of us parents that have some math backgrounds dislike it because it is light on content, spirals too quickly through topics, leaves others out entirely, and has no competent research showing significant improvement in math achievement. I tried long and hard to believe the rhetoric, high order thinking skills, conceptual understanding. . . . But realized that my kids (and my neighbor kids) despite pretty good grades, were unable to do math that used to be considered "grade level."

As a teacher, what has made you a proponent rather than a opponent?

-- LynnGuelzow - 06 Jul 2006

KTM Guest - what do you think the responsibilities of a teacher are about their students' learning?

-- TracyW - 06 Jul 2006

Since the subject of success in college has been raised on this thread, I thought I might at least throw in my two cents worth (realizing, of course, that 2 cents may be precisely what it's worth). Also, we just opened a checking account for my high school senior to be, so the subject of both college and responsibility is heavy on my mind.

I have had the good fortune to teach college freshmen (and sophomores, juniors and seniors as well), and I consider it both an honor and a privilege. Please keep in mind that I don't pretend to have all of the answers; but I keep trying to at least figure out the questions.

There are numerous factors that contribute to whether a student will be successful in college; indeed, the starting point might be defining what "success" means. For some, being the first in their family to graduate from college means success. Indeed, many first generation college students are mindful that they are blazing a trail for their younger siblings.

But almost universally for freshmen, college is scary, exhilarating and exciting--it's an adventure! For some the newfound freedom is overwhelming: "Mom's not here to make sure I get up and get to class in the morning and to make sure I come home at a reasonable time at night. Mom is also not here when I am sick and run down and in need of some tender, loving care."

Some students have left behind a significant other and are trying to adjust to that; almost all of them are adjusting to roommates that may be slobs or partiers, or, their new best friend for life.

So how is that different from when we were in college? Well, most of us didn't come from a generation where coed dorms were the rule, not the exception. And think of the changes in technology! We require our students to have computers and while we have pretty good tech support, the students have to become pretty high-tech pretty fast.

"I'm sorry, Miss Smith, but maybe you should have anticipated that your printer might run out of ink when you waited until 3:00 a.m. to start your assignment."

I don't think my generation had the same concerns about date rape that this generation has, either. And group projects? Well, don't even get me started on that topic! The latest issue is Facebook. We want to make sure they understand that while they may think it's hilarious to post a photo of the aftermath of the keg party on their site, prospective employers might think otherwise.

One of the things I try and do with first semester freshmen is talk with them about these things.

What do you think college professors expect from you? What is the proper way to address a professor? Most preferred to be called "Dr." or "Professor;" it's a sign of respect for the position. So, when you send them an email, try to remember that and refrain from greeting them by their first name. And speaking of emails, when emailing a professor, perhaps you should use your university email account and not your account with "foxyhotchick" as a screen name. What happens if you miss a class? Does the professor have an attendance policy? Be sure and read the Syllabus--it's full of all kinds of useful information. And while you're reading it, go ahead and put the date of the final on your calendar or planner. That way, you'll know if you have three finals scheduled for the same day. What happens if you miss a test? What should you do if you are not doing well in a class? Wait until the last two weeks of school and then show up at your professor's office begging for extra credit? Not the best plan, I might note.

I recall patiently explaining to a young student that, unlike high school, the university doesn't have an attendance officer who decides whether or not a doctor's appointment is an excused absence.

I guess what I am trying to say is that college administration and faculty are well aware of the issues facing young people today, and are working hard at trying to help students learn to navigate their way through what at times must seem to them as rough water.

-- KarenA - 06 Jul 2006

As if my previous post wasn't long-winded enough . . .

What I am also trying to say is that there are a lot of skills that freshmen need in order to survive college and that universities are, more and more, recognizing that the best approach is not to assume that they have knowledge of these survival skills, but to teach them directly.

-- KarenA - 07 Jul 2006

I wonder if KTM guest has a nostalgic view of college and responsibility. I hear it in the press and media too -- a sense that the helicopter moms and involved parenting is a new phenomenon. I think involved parenting has been around for generations, it is only more recently that it is "exceptional." FWIW, I remember going off to college (in the way distant past) a whole 20 min. away from home. I remember lots of phone calls and far more weekends at home than not. I don't think I was ill-adjusted, I actually liked my family and friends from home and liked to keep in touch. This wasn't unusual. Many kids went to college close to home (some even lived at home). My Mom audited one of my classes with me. No one chided her for being a helicopter or unwilling to cut the cord, or whatever. My friends liked it because she would take us out to dinner and feed us after the class and she had a unique perspective.

As a comparison, my son went to middle school further from home than I went to college.

What I'm trying to say (not particularly well, I admit), is that I think the role of parents is not that different now than in the past. It's just that now, the media has created a crisis by pulling out a couple of anecdotes from the far end of the distribution curve and portraying them as the norm. How representative is the research conducted by the authors of A Nation of Wimps ? Is it a few anecdotal extremes with a catchy title peddled as a condemnation of the whole generation? Well, The last two generations were condemned periodically in their youth, why should this one escape the same fate? I suspect that they'll fare pretty well overall. Although, if they learned more math, that could help!

-- LynnGuelzow - 07 Jul 2006

I do agree that some teachers launch pre-emptive strikes against parents, probably due to a lack of self-confidence in their own skills. Let us not forget that many parents launch these very same attacks.

Ahhh . . . balance. The ol' Yin and Yang. The ol' . . . I don't know . . . what?

-- JdFisher - 07 Jul 2006

A huge proponent of Everyday Math?

Here's everything we've ever written here about Everyday Math.

It's not going too far to say that Everyday Math made me what I am today... a foaming-at-the-mouth helicopter math mom.

-- CarolynJohnston - 07 Jul 2006

"SusanJ chose (of course) a weak anecdote in a strong piece...."

I've now read the entire article (actually I started over at the beginning so I've read much of it twice) and even took notes to help me focus. Unfortunately as far as my being able to make a useful evaluation, I'm a research scientist and don't know how to deal with articles like this one that are full of quotes and anecdotal evidence but don't have many references to quantitative research.

I take the article to be claiming that parents are increasingly over-protective and this is making their kids increasingly fragile.

Being 65, I grew up in an era when girls were over-protected to an extent that is almost unbelievable from today's perspective. For example, when I was in college, we female students had to follow very strict rules: we had to sign back into our (single-sex, of course) dorm by 10 p.m. on weeknights, were not allowed to ride in cars, etc.

So based on my own experience I would hypothesize that if today's young women are more fragile than those of an earlier era, over-protection is probably not the cause. It certainly would be interesting if it were possible to explore this further.

As far as the focus of this website, others have already said it better than I can. The parents here (like the four sets of parents of my 10 grandchildren and step-grandchildren) all seem to want their children's education to be more rigorous and for them to learn at a more rapid pace. So I really don't see the relevance of the "wimp" article to the reality of KTM.

-- SusanJ - 07 Jul 2006

The basic mistake of KTMGuest was to assume that Catherine was trying to get away with something. KTMGuest also didn't like our tone in discussing the issue. These are two separate problems, but it led to a false conclusion. Our tone perhaps could be more constructive, but sometimes (at least for me) I find myself driven STARK-RAVING MAD. Oops! I slipped up there.

The problem is that there is no "constructive" process. There is no process at all. I have had wonderful discussions with some teachers, but there is always a limit to what they can do within the system.

There are great differences of opinion in what constitutes a proper education. If there were full school choice, then parents could just find the school that met their (and kids') needs. Life would not be perfect, but the schools would be more receptive to constructive discussions. There would be a process. As it is now, most public school systems fight anything that will take money and control away from them.

Our state has a moratorium on charter schools and our town's public school system wants to prevent any of our kids from going to a charter school because our schools are high-performing on our trivial state tests. (This has to do with money, since they don't complain about the all of the kids going to private school.) Then, some of the best teachers even admit (privately) that many kids would be better off in a private schools. (because of higher expectations) This is fine for affluent parents, but what about the rest?

Public schools have total control over educational assumptions, curricula, and teaching methods, and they expect us parents to bake cookies and be constructive. Constructive means anything other than challenge assumptions, curricula, teachning methods, and competence. We parents then need to keep a smile on our faces when they do nothing.

-- SteveH - 07 Jul 2006

"KTM Guest - what do you think the responsibilities of a teacher are about their students' learning?"

Good question, Tracy.

When I taught, I told my students that I would do everything I could to get them to learn the material. I couldn't learn it for them, but I never thought of it as a game of character building. This meant that I would look at the homework and tests and not assume that poor grades meant lazy students. It meant that I had to try harder or use different approaches. Even if some of my students were lazy, it was still my job to do whatever I could to get them to understand the material. This didn't mean that I was an easy grader.

Let me give you another example. By the end of the semester, some students are usually in trouble, grade-wise. This could be for a number of reasons, but I didn't care. I didn't say, "tough luck, you're in college." I gave extra group and individual reviews.

High expectations does not mean putting all of the responsibility on the student.

-- SteveH - 07 Jul 2006

I think I'll let what I've said stand by itself at this point, with this exception:

I find it somewhat entertaining that someone criticizing others for creating "wimps" would respond so combustibly to the use of standard tools of debate. If you open a conversation by insulting complete strangers, you can expect a robust response. That you received any substantive responses speaks to the general tone here. I am less tolerant of this sort of boorish behavior than some others here.

And fallacious arguments do not require refutation.

With that, I'll leave off this unproductive dialog.

-- DougSundseth - 07 Jul 2006

DS: you're right of course (don't feed trolls).
your "bingo" was prob'ly my all-time-favorite KTM post, though ...

-- VlorbikDotCom - 07 Jul 2006

If my kids played Logic Fallacy Bingo with me they'd just save time and stack all of their chips on Slippery Slope.

-- SusanS - 07 Jul 2006

LynnGuelzow^? echoes a point my wife made.

Until recently (30 plus years), the age of majority was 21, not 18. So one’s undergrad life was typically conducted as a minor. Your parents were legally responsible for you, and the school had the responsibility of in loco parentis.

While students certainly had more freedom and responsibility than in high school, and were typically living away from home for the first time, they were still living in an environment that was a half-way house between teenage and being a full-fledged adult.

Having restrictions such as same-sex dorms and curfews probably made for a less distracting environment for many students. After all, there are many choices made at 18 that one wouldn’t make at 22.

So maybe the phenomenon of “Helicopter Parents” is not so mysterious after all.

-- BenCalvin - 07 Jul 2006

From another angle, my mother (age 81) and her cousin bicycled a few hundred miles alone when they were 16 (in 1940), staying in Youth Hostels along the way. They changed their route but never told their parents. They called home only once or twice. Of course, they were farm girls and not overly protected.

But again, she has told stories of bad things that happened in small town, rural America back then. Things that did not make the front page. Parents dealt with them privately, and many did not know what went on. Back then, parents made big mistakes because they did not want scandals to go public. Things were swept under the rug.

Nowadays, however, everybody knows everything. The media thrives on this. Push a few hot buttons and publish a few lurid stories, and ratings go up. It does affect my decisions, but my general impression is that very little has changed over time. As for helicopter parents, I can't say that I've met a single parent that fits the category of wanting their kids to get away with things or not wanting them to be physically and mentally tough.

One has to be very careful about generalizations of then versus now. Lots of things sound good on the surface.

-- SteveH - 08 Jul 2006

And yet another angle, my grandmother (age 86), once cycled from university in Auckland home to New Plymouth.

But when she was at university the head of the hostel forbade them to wear makeup, and would scrub it off their faces if she saw it.

-- TracyW - 09 Jul 2006

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Title:	telling time in Singapore Math
TopicType:	WebLog
SubjectArea:	SaxonMath, SingaporeMath, TeachersTeachingKids
LogDate:	200606301506

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