TheSchoolsWeHave < Kitchen

13 Nov 2006 - 23:54

the schools we have

On the front page of today's New York Times:

Leaving the City for the Schools, and Regretting It
By WINNIE HU
Published: November 13, 2006

TARRYTOWN, N.Y. — Mimi and Gol Ophir left behind their Riverside Drive apartment with views of the Hudson a decade ago to move to the Westchester suburbs, reluctantly trading comfort and convenience for what they believed would be better public schools for their growing family.
Only the suburban bargain the Ophirs thought they were getting turned out to be no bargain at all. They chose the Yorktown school system, a relatively well-off district whose students consistently outscore their peers on state tests. But the Ophirs came to view the schools as uninspiring and unresponsive, and now they pay $51,000 a year for their children, 11-year-old Dylan and 9-year-old Sabrina, to attend the private Hackley School here — on top of $23,000 annually in property taxes.
“That’s the whole point of moving to Westchester: you pay the high taxes, but you get the good schools,” Mrs. Ophir, 43, a full-time mother who formerly worked as a lawyer, said with anger and frustration. “That’s the tradeoff, I thought.”
Like the Ophirs, many New Yorkers with the means to do so flee the city when they have children, seeing the suburbs as a way to stay committed to public education without compromising their standards for safety and academics.
Yet a small but growing number of such parents are abandoning even some of the top-performing public schools in the region. In school districts like Scarsdale, N.Y., and Montclair, N.J., where high test scores and college admission rates have built national reputations and propelled real estate prices upward, these demanding families say they were disappointed by classes that were too crowded, bare-bones arts and sports programs, and an emphasis on standardized testing rather than creative teaching.

hmmm....uninspiring and unresponsive....

So what does the interim superintendent of Yorktown schools have to say for himself?

Vincent S. Ziccolella, the interim superintendent of the Yorktown district, said he did not understand the parents’ complaints. “Most of the people here are very satisfied with the school system, and they support the schools,” he said, adding that he frequently received calls from parents praising the schools.

I'm sure the district will be highly responsive once Ralph Napolitano is on the job.

think and discuss:

When it came time for Sabrina to begin school, Mrs. Ophir recalled, her husband told her, “I can’t go through another year of kindergarten with you.” So Sabrina enrolled at Hackley from the start.

Clearly I have been going about the homeschool debate all wrong.

I spent last spring telling Ed I wouldn't live through another year of Irvington Middle School.^*

I should have been telling him he wouldn't live through another year of me living through Irvington Middle School.

What was I thinking?

13private.xlarge1.jpg
Angel Franco/The New York Times, left; Ruby Washington/The New York Times

Stephanie Percy, left, and her daughter, also named Stephanie, commute 60 miles to Manhattan, where the girl attends the
Claremont Preparatory School. Mimi Ophir, unhappy with the schools that drew her to Westchester, sent her children, Dylan,
11, and Sabrina, 9, to the Hackley School.

Hackley is a couple of miles away from my house.

A couple of miles and 28,000 dollars a year, to be precise.

update

Ed wrote a letter to the TIMES.

They didn't publish it.

Instead, they published these five ($)

They're exactly what you'd expect — our schools are great; rich, neurotic parents should lighten up; "how sad" that rich, neurotic parents never do seem to lighten up; etc. — except for the letter from the Chappaqua parent who says public schools can't possibly be as good as private schools because public schools "include children with learning and behavioral issues."

Color me taken aback by that one.

Isn't there some politically correct Iron Law on the books about not speaking ill of kids with special needs?

Hey, Angie!

Up there in Chappaqua!

Thanks, hon!

Well....unlike certain people I know and love, Angie may not have learning issues.

However, she does have a little problem with critical thinking:

If you can’t afford to send your child to private schools, any school district will fit the bill as long as you are willing to support your child with your time.
Instead of complaining about what your school hasn’t taught your children, take the initiative and teach them yourself. Learning does not happen only in school.

Well, sure.

That follows.

If you can't afford to send your child to private schools (ding! ding! ding!), your school district will fit the bill anyway if you teach the material yourself! (ding! ding! ding!)

No word from Angie as to: supposing you have one or two learning and/or behavioral issues yourself?

Suppose you have learning and/or behavioral issues, and yet you went out and had kids who now need to learn how to read, write, and do arithmetic — and you can't teach them how, because you have learning and/or behavioral issues!

Or....suppose you have a job?

Suppose you are the sole support of your family?

It happens!

Suppose you are frantically upset about your mother being back in the hospital 1000 miles away AND your husband is having a cancer scare AND there are no competent doctors on your plan AND now that you've gone off the plan your husband is actually having 4-hour "delicate" surgery AND he's having it in the city AND you're supposed to be FINISHING (i.e. not JUST BARELY STARTING) a 2nd book proposal that was supposed to get done in the interstices while the contract for the 1st book proposal was getting negotiated AND you notice one day that you are amazingly thin for a person your age AND you're pretty sure it's not thanks to Shangri-La AND you're thinking, "I didn't used to wake up at 4 a.m. and not be able to get back to sleep"

....so supposing you've got all of that going on and you find yourself so distracted that you haven't looked at edline once this year?

Except for that time with the online assignment, of course.

My point is this.

If Christopher didn't have very good teachers this year, he would be sunk.

Because the most I'm going to be able to muster is an emergency Veteran's weekend teaching-probability-to-crammery operation.

What gets into people?

Why sit down in the middle of your busy learning-with-your-children-at-home-in-Chappaqua day to write a letter to the New York Times telling the rest of us that if our your school isn't teaching, the proper remedy is for Mom to do it herself?

I ask you.

And, ummm...... if Mom is to do the teaching herself, shouldn't we NOT be paying the highest property taxes in the entire country?

Then we come to Mr. Walt Gardner, a 28-year veteran of LAUSD, currently an accomplished writer of letters to the New York Times.

What does Walt Gardner have to say for himself?

To the Editor:
In the quest for the best education for their children, parents are learning, to their dismay, that long-held assumptions about schools often turn out to be wrong.
Their disappointment arises largely from the common belief that suburban schools are consistently better than urban schools, and that private schools are intrinsically superior to public schools.
Neither view stands up to scrutiny. Whether schools are private or public, suburban or urban, the major determinants of educational quality are the social, economic and cultural backgrounds of parents. When these factors are accounted for, similarities of schools in a particular community tend to overwhelm differences.
There is no guarantee that parents will find an ideal match for the specific needs and interests of their children anywhere. But the likelihood is enhanced if they keep these facts in mind.
Walt Gardner
Los Angeles, Nov. 13, 2006
The writer taught for 28 years in the Los Angeles Unified School District and was a lecturer in the U.C.L.A. Graduate School of Education.

I don't even know what this means.

So....I guess I will have nothing further to say apart from simply remarking that this line....

Whether schools are private or public, suburban or urban, the major determinants of educational quality are the social, economic and cultural backgrounds of parents.

This line is cr**.

Do I sound short-tempered?

I'm going to have to do something about that.

unresponsive

^*This year is much better than last.

-- CatherineJohnson - 13 Nov 2006

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I assume this article means staying in the city (at a private school, I assume), versus leaving the city for a good public school. This is really about public versus private schools.

The real problem has to do with parents knowing what they want and schools clearly spelling out what they offer. Obviously, the following parents don't know what they want.

"They chose the Yorktown school system, a relatively well-off district whose students consistently outscore their peers on state tests. ... they were disappointed by classes that were too crowded, bare-bones arts and sports programs, and an emphasis on standardized testing rather than creative teaching."

OK. They like the scores on standardized tests, but the don't like the emphasis on standardized testing.

I thought this was the more interesting comment.

"In Chappaqua, N.Y., for instance, Superintendent David Fleishman said the 10 students who typically transfer to private schools from his district each year were offset by an equal number of private-school students transferring in. “I think people are generally quite satisfied with the level of education and the learning environment we provide here,” he said."

This is not an equal trade-off. Many parents go back to public schools not because they are BETTER than the private schools; they do it to save a whole ton of money. One could say that private schools are not that much better and parents decide to make up the difference themselves. My wife and I talk to these parents and make this evaluation each year. Private schools are NOT worth the price, but then again, there is a negative cost to public schools.

Then there is the problem of lower schools versus high schools. It's a boom time for private lower schools. When I grew up in Connecticut, nobody sent their kids to private schools before high school (except for Catholic schools). Now, there are parents who send their kids to a private lower school and then to the public high school.

Public high schools are different. They typically have many more students and many more choices for academics and extra-curricular activities. It is much harder to justify $25,000+ for a private high school. One long-time teacher at a nationally-known prep school in our area said that the main advantage to their school is that they care about each child and will not let them slip through the cracks. They will be prepared for college. He also said that there are no real differences between their honors courses and those at the local high school.

It's interesting to note that the HUGE perq for teachers and staff at private schools is that their kids get to go there free. This can be a good percentage of the student population, and these students are not necessarily the best students. At the famous prep school in our area, they allow about 10 percent day students, and there is a great competition for those slots. My friend who teaches there says that it's easy to spot these students. They are always the best in the class. With fewer students than at a public high school, you just can't have more classes to separate the better students from the poorer ones.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

Stupid question time - if they were sending their kids to private school anyway, why didn't they just move back into the city?

-- TracyW - 14 Nov 2006

I assume this article means staying in the city (at a private school, I assume), versus leaving the city for a good public school.

Right.

Property taxes in Manhattan are much lower.

Westchester has the highest property taxes in the country - highest & still rising.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Moving back into the city is a HUGE undertaking, and you don't get any space.

Very few people with 3 kids live in the city, no matter how wealthy they are.

The one family they talked about, driving the Ford Focus, would never be able to do it.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

OK. They like the scores on standardized tests, but the don't like the emphasis on standardized testing.

They're correct.

I haven't even started writing about our (brand new) horrific experience with STATE standardized testing.

It's a nightmare.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

This is not an equal trade-off. Many parents go back to public schools not because they are BETTER than the private schools; they do it to save a whole ton of money.

I would get rid of superintendents altogether.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Private schools are NOT worth the price, but then again, there is a negative cost to public schools.

Exactly.

None of these private schools around here are worth the money (there might be a couple towards Manhattan - ).

But my public school sure isn't worth the money, either.

Unfortunately, my sense is that we have negative costs for both around here, and plenty of them.

I've learned from a parent who's had kids in both Irvington schools and Masters that the public-private system has to be seen as a system.

One of the "unstated" goals of private schools is to make sure no kids with LD attend.

They achieve this goal not via outright discimination, but via huge heaping loads of homework no kid with any problems could ever manage.

Masters School, which is considered to be the touchy-feely school, refuses as a matter of policy to make any allowances whatsoever for a kid with ADHD or LD. The school recognizes the fact that the child has these issues, but directly refuses to cut the child any slack.

If a child with LD or ADHD attends Masters, at $26,000/year, his parents are then on the hook for hiring private tutors to get him through.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Ed says the system is:

Westchester taxes are so high that black and Hispanic kids can't attend. Property taxes are used as the mechanism of exclusion.

Private schools in Westchester give so much homework that affluent white kids with "issues" can't attend. Homework is the mechanism of exclusion.

Until I learn lots more, I'm sure that's right.

The negative cost in both cases is obvious.

Both sets of schools cost a fortune, and the private schools burn kids out before they set foot in college.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Steve

The Yorktown family has put their kids in Hackley, which is the non-touchy feely private school.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Of course, both Hackley and Masters have constructivist math curricula, I believe. (Haven't fact-checked this, but I think a mom who had one or two of her kids in both schools told me so...)

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Public high schools are different. They typically have many more students and many more choices for academics and extra-curricular activities.

Our high school has ferocious tracking & tightly rationed honors courses.

Kids are put through a lengthy application process - so lengthy and grueling that parents have to sign a document stating that they understand their children have applied to a class.

They give parents no explanation for why their kids were rejected, and the "selection" process is opaque.

They provide no evidence that the rejected children are less capable than the selected children.

It's now widely believed that the children of wealthy fundraising parents have the edge on "admissions."

I have no idea whether the children of wealthy fundraising parents have the edge & frankly I don't care.

The very fact that our school district has allowed a situation to develop in which parents believe that wealthy "donors" have an edge is wrong.

At this point I'm no fan of public high schools.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

There was a high school meeting the other night at which parents repeatedly asked for explanation of how the admissions process works.

Neither the principal nor the other person present answered the question.

Finally the principal suggested that parents of children who were rejected ask the teachers of the Honors classes for samples of student writing to compare to their own children's writing.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

I'm pretty sure a couple of parents are actually going to do this.

It'll be interesting seeing what happens after the teachers say they're "not at liberty" to provide samples of student writing.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Plus of course this raises the question of: is the entire Honors selection process based on student writing?

And if so, why?

What evidence does the high school have that writing, which can only be graded subjectively, should be the admit criteria?

Answer is none.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

When I went to Wellesley I'd never written a paper in my life.

I didn't know how to write.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Actually, I'll go ahead and put our STATE TESTS experience here.

Background is: the middle school tightly rations the 8th grade Regents earth science course. They offer only two sections of the class, which means only 1/4 of the class can take it.

Around 35% of the class is in accelerated math, so that gives you some idea of how many kids they have to cut, and of how laborious the process of figuring out whom they can reject is for them.

Scott Fried told me last spring that they spend weeks figuring out which kids they can turn away.

He didn't say "turn away," of course.

But that's what it means to the kid & the family.

WEEKS of time is put into figuring out how to cut kids who are the intellectual equivalent of kids who will be invited to take the class.

So that's the backdrop.

Christopher has always had 4s on his ELA tests, so our tactical plan was to use his 4 to argue that reading comprehension is the key predictive factor when it comes to knowing who's likely to succeed in a course and who is not. (Which is true.)

So guess what.

Christopher's class has the highest number of 4s in the county.

Christopher's score: a 3.

We're scre***.

Christopher was one of 10% of his class to score a 4 in 5th grade; now he's down to just above the average for his class.

He's dropped at least 30 points in one year.

We have no idea what the test means, how it relates to the 5th grade test, or whether his decline is real.

Also, we have no idea who scored the test or how.

Our own teachers score the kids' tests....we don't know whether classroom teachers score their own kids' tests or not.

As usual, we're in the dark. Test-scoring is yet another Top Secret activity here in Irvington.

Worse yet, the test had a huge amount of writing, and the scoring of writing is highly subjective, as has been shown by numerous studies. Students whose handwriting is bad receive lower scores.

Ed worked on the scoring for history-social science tests in CA; it was very difficult. Not all teachers could do it, and they had safeguards.

They had several people score each essay, and threw out the outliers.

Last year is the first year the test was given.

So we have our own teachers scoring our own tests, with no safeguards and minimal training, and we have all female scorers for all tests.

Thus far every boy I know in Christopher's class also showed a decline.

This is making me see the "Everyone knows boys do worse than girls in middle school" moment in a new light.

We were in our "Team Meeting" when the principal said, in a tone of ringing authority, "Everyone knows boys do worse than girls in middle school."

Every teacher in the room was female; every teacher but one was young and new at her job.

And the boss says, "Everyone knows!"

It's not just that it's always worse than you think; it's that it keeps getting worse.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Obviously I'll push them on giving us a gender breakdown of scores; I'll also insist that we have transparency on exactly how the tests are scored - who scores them? how much training? any effort to establish validity and consistency across scorers? etc.

But the fact is, the school now has a weapon to use against our kid.

Unless they open up more sections of earth sciences (other schools have all their 8th graders in the class), they have a reason to reject Christopher and I assume that they will do so.

The other question, of course, is: did he really drop 30 points in reading comprehension from 5th grade to 6th?

That would be some middle school slump.

He took the test shortly after leaving Mrs. R's class, so the slump could be real. He had learned nothing, and he was an emotional wreck.

He was also sick and throwing up the day he took one section of the test (I think the test spans 3 days).

My guess is that his decline isn't real - though of course it will become real once the school uses it to put him in a non-Regents class.

What I have to do next is:

have him re-take the objective portions of the test & see what's what with those

finally order the ITBS and administer that

All of this is exactly what I want to be doing with my time, of course.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

The scores arrived in the mail along with a form letter from the principal saying that kids with 4s are doing great; kids with 1s and 2s will receive services.

For kids with 3s the school will continue to "differentiate instruction" to try to move them up to 4.

Nothing - not one word - about kids who used to be 4s before they entered the middle school.

Nothing about kids who've declined.

And there are a lot of them out there.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

AND (I'm winding down here....) no one at the school has the job of looking at individual student learning.

I'm about to become an opponent of state testing.

All my school cares about is its aggregate scores. The district doesn't care much about those, but at least it notices.

The fact that individual kids show decline is of no interest whatsoever.

Our scores are good, so hooray for us. Seriously - that's the Board's stand. Our scores are great!

The data is warehoused, instruction is "targeted," and the parade moves on.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

OK, it's time for me to go order the ITBS.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Our taxes have gone up 80% in the 8 years we've lived here; soon we'll be paying more in property taxes than we pay in mortgage.

Apparently we pay this money to our school so we can subject our kids to a cutthroat admissions process at the age of 12.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

The Irvington school district never, ever, under any circumstances, attempts to increase the number of students taking and succeeding in advanced courses.

The stated, public goal is to make cuts.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

" ... and the private schools burn kids out before they set foot in college."

Private schools can vary quite a bit. One that we looked at (and rejected) had a reputation for giving a lot of homework. I didn't want my son to be doing homework on Saturday mornings. Besides, if schools were more efficient about learning during the day, then there would be little need for much homework. Some schools do it just to impress the parents.

Another variation in private schools is the demand to get in. The schools that struggle to fill slots are not too picky - just whether the parents will pay the bill. This means that they move the kids along grade-to-grade with the rest. On top of that, they don't have any extra resources to adapt the curriculum to the ability levels of the kids.

They also don't deal well (or not at all) with learning issues. Our public schools do very well with IEP students, but they ignore the more able students. "The cream always rises to the top", they say. However, it's the average kids that really get hurt.

In general, (lower) private schools move at a faster pace than public schools, but they still suffer from the same sorts of Ed School educational fluff. They make up for this with more homework. It's better, but hardly ever worth the price.

For the lower public schools, preparation for high school depends more on parental involvement with homework and outside tutoring. This is made much more difficult with their lower expectations and slower pace. Many kids will be bored during the day. This is a big negative cost. Some public schools do various forms of visible or invisible tracking, which may help (or not), but parents have to really pay attention. Unfortunately, in our town, there is absolutely no tracking whatsoever before high school.

Both public and private high schools can create their share of burn out, but perhaps in different ways. Even public high schools push the importance of extra-curricular activities and volunteer work. They expect these kids to be more perfect than adults. Besides, I have a real problem with mandatory volunteer work.

Burn out also comes from the kids. Many kids (and their parents) are quite obsessed about which college they get into. Some kids get really weird about taking many AP courses. I like the idea that AP courses force high schools to be more rigorous, but the important aspect is the rigor of the courses, not whether you get to calculus in high school.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

"They provide no evidence that the rejected children are less capable than the selected children."

This is an issue of competence and accountability.

If they have a demand for a product, they should fill that demand. They should just make sure that students know what they are getting into when they sign up for a course. You don't do this in college. Each course has prerequisites. If you meet the entry requirements, then you can get in. The only limitation is whether there are enough classes to go around. They don't, however, make students take tests to see who gets into the classes.

Your high school could open up more classes if they wanted to. Why don't they? It's not because they are protecting the kids. It's because they don't want to try. Perhaps they just don't have enough qualified teachers. Why don't they go out and hire them?

They want to make cuts? Why there?

It doesn't matter what we talk about here at KTM if schools do only what they want to do. We can blather on all day and it makes little difference. You get the smile, head nod, and do nothing. School choice is the only answer.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

One that we looked at (and rejected) had a reputation for giving a lot of homework. I didn't want my son to be doing homework on Saturday mornings. Besides, if schools were more efficient about learning during the day, then there would be little need for much homework. Some schools do it just to impress the parents.

We have unbelievable burn-out schools hear.

Horrible.

I'm sure Ed is right that in Westchester there's an additional element of keep-out-the-riffraff.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Our public schools do very well with IEP students

not mine

My school does a lousy job.

In fact, I'm now hearing stories off the record that are.....well, I'm running out of adjectives to express horror

I'd be surprised if any special ed parent would tell you public schools do a good job with LD kids

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

In fact, I would go so far as to say that public schools are terribly destructive to LD kids

Half the time there is no "LD."

There is an "SD," a school disability.

When you understand how "LDs" are "assessed," you see the problem at once.

The law has just changed, but until this year an LD was purely a matter of a child falling behind.

Once the child was around 2 years behind, he "qualified" for a "classification."

When you think through the ramifications of this, it's horrifying.

No effort is made - none - to disaggregate teaching and curriculum from the child.

Why is the child behind?

The answer is always the child.

Remember the Galen Alessi study?

School psychologists protested that the study wasn't fair because they weren't allowed write a report saying that the reason the child had fallen behind was that the school hadn't taught him properly.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

"The cream always rises to the top", they say. However, it's the average kids that really get hurt.

Everyone gets hurt.

Everyone goes broke at his own level.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

That's the way I see it now.

In a dysfunctional system there are no winners.

There are people who look like winners.

But their lives inside a good school focused on individual student learning would have been different.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Besides, I have a real problem with mandatory volunteer work.

ditto

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

I like the idea that AP courses force high schools to be more rigorous

nope

they don't

it's always worse than you think

(more anon)

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

This is an issue of competence and accountability.

competence, accountability, and character

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Actually, that's quite helpful.

I emailed about this with Ben Calvin a bit; he said what Ed and I are (going to be) pushing for is for the school district to structure itself like a community college.

There are prerequisites; you might have placement tests; etc.

A course may fill up, but the student can sign up early the next time and get in.

etc.

Our school won't do this without huge pushing from parents, and huge pushing from parents may or may not happen because some parents of the accepted kids are going to want the current system to stay in place.

We'll have to try to make common cause with a number of these parents, so we'll see.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

They want to make cuts? Why there?

No one knows why this "system" is in place.

No explanation is given.

"Admissions process" is opaque.

There is no transparency.

EOS

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

It doesn't matter what we talk about here at KTM if schools do only what they want to do. We can blather on all day and it makes little difference. You get the smile, head nod, and do nothing.

Actually, Ed and I have progressed well past the smile-and-head-nod phase.

We're into the cryptic "the district can work with you but we need less inflammatory language on the blog" phase.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

"I'd be surprised if any special ed parent would tell you public schools do a good job with LD kids."

I think we touched on this quite a while back. Specifically, is there the same dichotomy in the LD world as there is for above average kids, namely, some parents really like the teaching methods and content and some do not? In our town, you ONLY hear good things about our IEP programs. Families move to our town because of it. You never hear a bad word, whereas you hear many grumblings about the education (not) provided for the more able kids. Perhaps our town is unique in this regard, but I don't know. As you have said, we need a lot more communication between parents.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

"No effort is made - none - to disaggregate teaching and curriculum from the child."

I think this is true in our town. Perhaps the parents like the caring support, but the methods are poor and the expectations too low. The LD status becomes permanent.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

"Everyone goes broke at his own level."

The words "educational wasteland" have come to me more than once.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

Specifically, is there the same dichotomy in the LD world as there is for above average kids, namely, some parents really like the teaching methods and content and some do not?

Again, I'd be surprised.

I COULD BE WRONG.

But I'd be surprised.

Special ed parents are THE most activated, radicalized bunch in the system.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

In our town, you ONLY hear good things about our IEP programs. Families move to our town because of it. You never hear a bad word, whereas you hear many grumblings about the education (not) provided for the more able kids. Perhaps our town is unique in this regard, but I don't know.

Interesting.

I wish sociologists & economists would study these towns - I'd love to know whether your town is an "outlier," or whether it's similar to other towns and I'm experiencing it differently.....

I've lived in Los Angeles & Irvington, so personally I have an "n of 2."

In those two places, special ed parents are in a permanent uproar (though at the moment we're in good shape. Still, we have to get to the point of spending $3000 on an attorney this fall just to get Jimmy's class the bus they need to get to their "transition" program. They spent 6 weeks of the school year marooned in the basement; couldn't get to their "jobs." That's pretty bad & it wouldn't happen to a typical child.)

The fact that we have organizations like "Mothers From Hell" tells me that your town may be one weird little Twilight Zone....

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

"the district can work with you but we need less inflammatory language on the blog"

They worked with you before the blog?

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

As you have said, we need a lot more communication between parents.

listserv

It's AMAZING what you learn with just a few people posting.

Incredible.

It's like the soccer-mom network magnified, because you talk to people you wouldn't meet in your normal travels.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

The LD status becomes permanent.

Exactly.

The words "educational wasteland" have come to me more than once.

yeah

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

They worked with you before the blog?

good point!

I need to be quicker on the uptake.

I didn't think to say, "Gee, if they can 'maybe' work with us now, why couldn't they 'maybe' work with us before I had to go write a blog about them?"

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

Of course, they're not working with us now, either.

But they're not happy.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

I'd say the new principal is "working with us" to some degree, BUT I don't have the sense that that has anything to do with ktm. He didn't even know what it was when he delivered the Inflammatory Language message.

I think he tends to be pro-working with parents.....however, he's ed-school through and through, and he's not in charge; the superintendent is in charge.

So we'll see.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

done

I've ordered the ITBS for Christopher.

I'll give it to him this month and we'll see where we stand.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

"I wish sociologists & economists would study these towns - I'd love to know whether your town is an "outlier," or whether it's similar to other towns and I'm experiencing it differently....."

If it's any indicator, our schools refuse (!) to do ANY kind of tracking or separation by ability through 8th grade. I don't know of any other public school that does this. The next town over provides three levels of math classes in 8th grade. (They may not be very good, but that's another issue.) This is probably the biggest reason why so many of our kids go to private schools. I would definitely say that our schools are "out there" when it comes to progressive education. They seem to care very much about LD kids, but I don't know how effective they are.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

Here's the plan:

if he scores significantly higher than a 3 on the NY ELA, we'll ask the school to enter the scores in his records and to assure us that they will not use the results of the grade 6 test to limit his opportunities to learn

they will stonewall and spin

we'll persist in requesting reassurance that they will not use an invalid test to limit his opportunities to learn

etc.

if his ITBS score confirms his NY state score we'll figure out a program of remediation here at home

and we'll get advice from his ELA teacher, Ms. Coulson, who is a saving grace.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

If it's any indicator, our schools refuse (!) to do ANY kind of tracking or separation by ability through 8th grade. I don't know of any other public school that does this.

Our town is just about there, I'd say.

No more tracking for math; differentiated instruction inside the classroom.

HOWEVER, I'm rapidly coming to see "differentiated instruction" as a grave danger to learning.

It's more Top Secret activity inside the black box of the classroom; parents don't know what "differentiated instruction" means, so most of us won't know to ask which group our child has been permanently differentiated into.

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

The next town over provides three levels of math classes in 8th grade.

I've come to believe, with Engelmann, that we should have 3 levels of everything......WITH THE PROVISION THAT:

PARENTS HAVE SOME ABILITY TO APPEAL THE LEVEL THEIR KID HAS BEEN CONSIGNED TO

THE SAME CURRICULUM IS TAUGHT TO ALL 3 GROUPS, WITH THE DIFFERENCE BEING HOW LONG IT TAKES TO LEARN THE CURRICULUM

THE GOAL IS ALWAYS TO CATCH THE SLOWER KIDS UP TO THE FASTER IF POSSIBLE (if that means more classtime, more homework, more time on task - whatever - fine)

and always: transparency

What is the school doing and why?

What is the expected outcome?

What is the actual outcome?

-- CatherineJohnson - 14 Nov 2006

"The fact that we have organizations like "Mothers From Hell" tells me that your town may be one weird little Twilight Zone...."

It feels like that sometimes. It's a small town and nobody likes to create a stir. (The kids go to high school in the next town over.) The education provided in K-8 is based on big philosophical assumptions, so parents are not going to change those. Either you deal with it, or you go elsewhere. The parents who go elsewhere don't bother the public schools anymore. It's quite amazing to see it work.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

" ... to assure us that they will not use the results of the grade 6 test to limit his opportunities to learn."

I can see the headline:

"School Fights to Keep Kids From Learning!"

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

I don't know if my District (Normal IL Unit 5)is one of those Twilight Zones, though I may be starting to think so. I have never had a big problem dealing with special ed issues; everyone in special ed is open and communicative and willing to listen (and implement) lots of what I have to say. Of course, any special ed parent will tell you you need to "ride herd" constantly. I know lots of other parents I've met in support groups are satisfied. In fact, in posting on other groups, I've found that the Bloomington/Normal and Champaign areas may be the exception to the rule; the groups are full of special ed horror stories from affluent Chicago suburban districts and rural IL districts.

But now that I have a 1st grader in regular ed, I'm starting to see the "alternative universe." Everything is a secret. No one will HONESTLY tell me how my child is doing except "she's doing fine." No one talks about where she stands in relation to other 1st graders. In fact, parents were not even informed the SAT10 tests were given in September; the first I knew of it was a report sent home last week, with no additional communication from the school/teacher about the results. Emily had a low score in Reading, so I've ordered the "Explode the Code" series to work on that. (Just because I have so much time on my hands:) Now I see the other side of the coin with a whole new set of frustrations for a "regular" kid.

-- KathyIggy - 14 Nov 2006

"HOWEVER, I'm rapidly coming to see "differentiated instruction" as a grave danger to learning."

By defninition, DI is not about acceleration, because that's tracking. The schools use it to get parents off their back and to pretend to do something. In our town, it's a way to continue full-inclusion through 8th grade. Then they ship kids off to high school and never see the problems.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

"No one talks about where she stands in relation to other 1st graders. "

When my son was in Kindergarten and first grade in our public schools, they did testing and they didn't want to tell us (1) they did the testing, and (2) the results. It was almost as if they didn't like smart kids (and their parents). They wanted to pretend that these kids were really not smart; that they were not much different than the LD kids. They just learn differently. It was my son's first grade teacher who told us that he had a lot of "superficial knowledge". She didn't do anything for him.

Our schools talk about differentiated instruction, but there is no policy standard or definition. There is no requirement for teachers to do anything. There is only a goal for more teacher training. A parent can't go in and talk to the teacher about how instruction is going to be differentiated for their child. DI is a generic technique. There is no requirement for a student to do more work, and often, that's what it is. More work. Not advanced work. If you do enough more work, then you can get to 4 on the rubric scale. It's such a big jump that most kids don't bother.

During the day, most things are done in mixed-ability groups - that's the whole idea. You can't differentiate in mixed ability, child-centered groups. I had one teacher try to explain how differentiation would work in mixed groups with the teacher leading the group. It was the silliest, most contorted example, just to say that they were doing DI.

So, how does DI work? They provide time during the day (and for homework) for individual work. The teacher doesn't sit with each child to come up with a differentiated plan, so they encourage kids to do more on their own. If they are doing a unit on the Civil War, a child can decide to do more than the standard writing assignment. He/She might do a poster and get up in front of the class to do a report. It COULD be a good learning exercise for the child, but there are no guarantees (or plan) and it's not likely to be the best use of their time. As you can imagine for math, the benefit of more work without acceleration is minimal, especially for fuzzy math.

DI is not about grouping or teaching advanced kids separately at any time during the day. At best, there might be a little time spent one-on-one with the student about the extra work they are doing. It's NOT an individual plan, and it is NOT about teaching, instruction, or acceleration of material. It is a pie-in-the-sky way to avoid separating kids by ability.

-- SteveH - 14 Nov 2006

Tracy

Stupid question time - if they were sending their kids to private school anyway, why didn't they just move back into the city?

Another stupid question time -- If Mrs. Ophir is already a "full-time mother", then why don't they save $51,000 and homeschool? Are they getting $51,000 more education than they would get if she taught them?

Catherine

Westchester has the highest property taxes in the country - highest & still rising.

I know you have extremely high property values there, which contributes to the amount of property tax, but what's your percentage? Ours is about 3% per year, but we have no state income tax.

Our taxes have gone up 80% in the 8 years we've lived here; soon we'll be paying more in property taxes than we pay in mortgage.

My taxes have gone up almost exactly 100% in the last 8 years; tax + insurance is up to about 83% of principal + interest. I figure by the time the house is paid off in 18 months or so, the T+I will be up to what the P+I was. The property values go up, hence the property tax revenues go up, but the tax rates almost never go down. I'm in what may be the only city in the country where property values are still rising. On the other hand, we didn't get the insane bubble either.

Regarding Christopher's scores, are the scores (3 vs 4) scaled on a curve, or assigned based on a fixed raw value? If they are not scaled/curved, then I think you might be able to compare the 4 from 5th grade with the 3 from 6th grade. However, since he is in a different school this year, presumably larger and drawing from a number of elementary schools, you can't really directly compare the percentile rankings, because the base populations are not the same. That is, last year he was in the 90th percentile of IES (or whichever elementary), and this year he is in the (some) percentile of IMS, which is a different, larger group of kids. (Maybe the other elementary schools teach better, or teach more to the test, so their kids do better in general on the state tests?)

-- GoogleMaster - 14 Nov 2006

"If they have a demand for a product, they should fill that demand."

In the high school I went to back in the late 70's and early 80's, they had three AP classes: American History, English and Calculus. Anybody could take American History and English, but you had to be willing to do the work. Only highly motivated kids took these classes, and the rest of the kids chose not to. Self selection worked.

My kids may not have the same opportunity I had to take AP classes. It's ironic, because I went to a small-town school that was nothing fancy, while my kids are being educated in an affluent, suburban district.

(Math was handled differently in my old school. To take AP Calculus, you had to be selected for honors Algebra in 8th grade.)

-- RobynW - 14 Nov 2006

"public schools are terribly destructive to LD kids"

I hope not, but I fear you're right. I just allowed my child to be classified with a math LD. I'm not sure she really has one... I suspect her problems have more to do with the lousy math curriculum. But I have no choice. She can't keep up, and needs modifications.

In our district, parents of high-end sped kids are not too happy. I think that's because we use the same curriculum for everyone, and instruction is geared towards the top two-thirds of the class. For kids with LDs, it's absolutely necessary to supplement with after-schooling or private tutoring, which gets expensive.

Parents of kids with more severe disabilities seem a little happier (although I could be wrong). I think that's because they respond to the genuine kindness and concern shown to their kids from teachers and staff.

It troubles me to complain so much about the school because I like so many of the people who work there. But the system is a real mess.

-- RobynW - 14 Nov 2006

In our district, usually you need to have your kid placed in an "instructional" special ed class to get away from lousy curriculum, so I'd imagine some parents of "high-end" special needs kids would not want to take this step. We finally did this year realizing it was the only way Meg was going to learn anything. The regular curriculum was a huge source of frustration and she was beginning to hate school, not to mention the hours upon hours we spent "afterschooling" just to barely keep up. The sped teachers and resource room teachers hate the regular curriculum as they see first-hand the frustration it causes. As I've stated before, we've been as "happy" as a "speced parent" probably can be, but the amount of effort it takes to get to that point where parent and/or child are not in tears nearly every school night is amazing.

-- KathyIggy - 14 Nov 2006

The label's going to be there anyway whether the kid just goes out for resource services or is in self-contained. Parents in denial think there's a big difference and so cling to the hope of it all working out. If they get too distracted by it they can do more harm than good. It's hard to get by the pain of what it all means and seriously take a look at what would be best for that particular child.

With self-contained, the label's the first thing you get over because you don't have a choice. There's no way of spinning it. That is, after you get all of those pitying looks from friends and relatives. After you've suffered through enough of that, you realize that you just have to be a special ed ambassador of sorts so that at least you can help the next set of parents coming down the pike.

And often the IEPs give the impression of helping, but they too can mean absolutely nothing because there is no real accountability if little Johnny doesn't make his benchmark. No one goes back to the last IEP to see why more progress wasn't made. They sort of "spiral" like everything else. Little Johnny is always "progressing," only in special ed there's an even bigger excuse for why he couldn't master anything.

-- SusanS - 15 Nov 2006

"in special ed there's an even bigger excuse for why he couldn't master anything"

That's our school's excuse for the poor performance of special ed students on state standardized tests. Might it be that the school isn't educating special ed kids very well? Nah, that's not it. The kids' brains are defective.

-- RobynW - 15 Nov 2006

DI is not about acceleration, because that's tracking

DI is tracking.

It's secret tracking, like Carolyn said.

(I realize she didn't say that about DI.)

It's tracking.

Inside the classroom.

Parents won't be told; we won't know which one of the "differentiated" curricula our child gets.

-- CatherineJohnson - 15 Nov 2006

"DI is tracking."

At our school, it's just one track, and that's the lowest one. The only kids to make it to honors math in high school are the ones who get the tracking at home or with tutoring. We have no separation by ability in our K-8 schools. There is no acceleration of material. These are fundamental tenets of DI.

Perhaps at other schools they use DI as a way to hide tracking, but you would have to see acceleration of material and grouping by ability somewhere.

-- SteveH - 15 Nov 2006

GoogleMaster^?, you're singing my song about the SAHM in the article and homeschooling.

Are these super-expensive private schools really the only alternative in most places? There aren't any modestly priced private schools at all? I've got at least four to choose from in a 10-mile radius from my house (not counting the Catholic school), and the most expensive one is around $6K a year. Maybe I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Man, you and Catherine are freaking me out with the property tax horror stories. You guys need Prop. 13 big time.

Which reminds me, Catherine, will you be making your annual pilgrimage back to L.A. any time soon?

-- BrendaM - 15 Nov 2006

I have got to read this whole thread more thoroughly. On the LD and SPED side of things, I was really surprised by how little thought and effort is actually put into developing an IEP. I really thought this was a meaningful document that would be very specific to the child. The reality, in my one and only foray into SPED-land is that the school psych handwrites the IEP (she is the designated rapid note taker) at the "team" meeting. No one puts any thoughts or effort prior to the meeting, no one gathers data or information on the child, they all get into a room and dash off the document. At the end of the meeting, the IEP is finished, it will be filed away and never referred to again unless a parent brings it up. With so little prep, it becomes a paper shuffling exercise.

I decided there was nothing to be gained with a label, especially since our issues were not easily checked off in a box. "We" have anxiety (at times severe) and maybe even a little OCD.

I think many of the parents of SPED in our town are unhappy with the services, but pleased that they actually have a process to demand some help. That's a big improvement over regular ed.

We've looked at private schools, but it looks like many of them use the same lousy constructivist math curriculum that we do. Right now, we're staying in public (because we already pay for it) and just hope that the school doesn't do any actual damage. The academics we'll teach on our own after school.

-- LynnGuelzow - 16 Nov 2006

I know people who pay for math tutoring on top of private school tuition.

Some of the smaller private schools use curricula that are worse than Everyday Math. At least our public school insists that kids know their math facts automatically. Some of the private schools don't, and if the kids move back into public, it's a real mess.

I have a friend who programs computers and who is a traditionalist in education matters. She put her kids in Catholic schools and seems very happy with the result. That would not really be an option for us since we are not Catholic. But they seem to be the only schools around that offer traditional math.

-- RobynW - 16 Nov 2006

"DI is tracking."

I started to look at a number of DI links again to see what has changed.

1. They refer to differentiation of the content or acceleration. What they really mean is "compacting", where some kids get through the material faster. Of course, they can't go on to the material in the next grade level, and compacting is limited because the whole idea is to work (most of the time) in mixed ability groups. They want to be able to say they do acceleration, not just enrichment, but it's not true acceleration. Once again they change the meaning of a word. Standards. Mastery. Acceleration. Understanding.

2. There is now the idea of "layering" the curriculum.

- - - from the www.help4teachers.com site

"What's in a layer?"

C Layer : Basic knowledge, understanding. The student builds on his/her current level of core information.

B Layer : Application or manipulation of the information learned in the C layer. Problem solving or other higher level thinking tasks can be placed here.

A Layer : Critical Thinking and Analysis. This layer requires the highest and most complex thought. Create leaders, voters.

Based on current brain-imaging information, Layered Curriculum is an exciting and effective student-centered teaching method.

[Gag me with a spoon!]

The 3 layer model of differentiated instruction encourages complex thinking and holds students highly accountable for their learning.

- - - - - - - - - - -

" holds students highly accountable for their learning"

Apparently, the teachers and schools are accountable for nothing. I suppose that layering could be considered tracking without acceleration of the curriculum. You combine the downside of tracking with a ceiling on acceleration.

Who decides which layer a child is in? Once a layer C student, always a layer C student. It seems like layer B is where you can expect any sort of mastery. I'm surprised that they use A, B, and C, like for A, B, and C grade students.

The whole purpose of DI is to get full-inclusion to work and put the onus of education on the student. If kids don't do well, it's their own fault.

There are minimal grade-level expectations of content and mastery. A good education is up to the child. Some teachers might try to get kids to move up a layer or two, but what leverage do they have? Grading has to be based on perceived effort rather than results. Layer A students can't be the only ones to get high grades.

In our public schools, it's really easy to get a '3' on the grading rubric. To get to the top level '4' requires a lot more work - not accelerated or advanced work. Parents say that most kids don't bother. It's real easy to get a '3', and very hard to get a '4'. So teachers have no leverage to get kids to master the material.

I read one comment that said that kids need to get over the idea of fairness; namely, that the teacher can expect more (and grade harder) those kids who have more ability. Right. It won't work. I think that's why our schools have a big jump between the rubric grade '3' and '4'. Teachers use that big jump to make kids work harder. Few do. Everyone gets 3's.

I have a definite limit to how long I can read this stuff. It all boils down to low expectations. They assume that all expectations have to come from the child - starting in Kindergarten. Talk about IQ or parental-driven education. No wonder they say that parental involvement is so important. Modern education REQUIRES it. Schools accept very little responsibility.

-- SteveH - 16 Nov 2006

Off the top of my head, the layering of curriculum sounds an awful lot like what used to be called "scaffolding" of curriculum.

The ideas underlying curriculum movements rarely change, only the names.

-- LynnGuelzow - 16 Nov 2006

"The reality, in my one and only foray into SPED-land is that the school psych handwrites the IEP (she is the designated rapid note taker) at the "team" meeting. No one puts any thoughts or effort prior to the meeting, no one gathers data or information on the child, they all get into a room and dash off the document. At the end of the meeting, the IEP is finished, it will be filed away and never referred to again unless a parent brings it up."

Unfortunately, that is the reality in many districts from stories I've heard. Parents have little input and are presented with a document they've never seen before with demands to approve it, all in a half-hour meeting. I've had a different experience where numerous "drafts" of the proposed IEP are circulated to all the team members ahead of time, including the goals I would like to see. There are numerous pre-meeting discussions; often, any additional evaluations the teacher/case manager/parent desires are done months before the meeting so the results can be obtained beforehand. Once we get to the meeting, the IEP is close to final form and some fine-tuning may be done at the meeting. Now, in 5th grade, we've already had discussions about additional assessments to prepare for the meeting in April which will discuss middle school placement. The IEP goals are discussed at every parent-teacher conference. In past years, I've had to convene "emergency" meetings to redo goals or add services if something isn't working. And I think everyone has figured to schedule an hour (at least) for meetings. You know how those lawyers LOVE to talk....Maybe I am in the Twilight Zone.

-- KathyIggy - 16 Nov 2006

I think that's why our schools have a big jump between the rubric grade '3' and '4'. Teachers use that big jump to make kids work harder. Few do. Everyone gets 3's.

I think we have the same jump between "M" (meets expectations) and "E" (exceeds) for our grading in K-2. Only the top 5% (or less) get "E" and nearly everyone gets "M" in grades 1-2. (Usually they give "P" (progressing) in the first half of Kindergarten to the majority of kids). Most parents figure out an "E" is nearly impossible to obtain so they don't have their kids do anything extra.

-- KathyIggy - 16 Nov 2006

We just got our brand new, redesigned report cards on Monday. $1000s were spent on a consultant to help them create this new beast, called a "standards based report card."

It is an abomination.

Parents were not included in the cooperative team that developed this thing. Even though the stated purpose of the report card is to provide information to parents. On the math section, there are 3 different keys to decipher -- letters (C,I,N), numbers (1-4), and checks (+, checkmark, -).

The grading is split -- 25% devoted to reporting on achievement, 75% devoted to behavior. The other academic subjects are similarly weighted, more attention to behavior, less attention to academics.

-- LynnGuelzow - 16 Nov 2006

I just saw an article in the paper how our district wants to move to a "standards based" report card next year, along with going from a report card every quarter to the trimester system, as now parents are concerned since grades usually drop after the first quarter, since the "first quarter is all review". So I guess now the grades can just be inflated across 3 grading periods? Now, we have a mix of letters, plus signs and checkmarks, but only a small portion of the report is behavior ("learner characteristics").

-- KathyIggy - 16 Nov 2006

In the 14 page explanatory material that came home with the report card, I was disappointed to see that children are evaluated for categories, not skills. This was very explicit. They do not want to tell us which skills they've mastered and which they haven't. We get one large grade for "numerical reasoning" and "geometry and measurement" for the entire math grade. But particular behaviors are graded much more specifically -- organization, participation, effort, etc. these are all broken out separately for each academic area.

I find it vague and unhelpful in figuring out how my child is doing. In the past, we got an insert in each report card that was often handwritten and was very child specific and instructive. This section has been eliminated. The insert was the only part of the report card that I really looked at. The teacher would write a paragraph or two on the strengths and weaknesses of each child. It was subjective, yes, but gave me a clear picture of what the teacher actually thought about my kid.

I'm thinking that the switch to standards based reporting is to reduce the level of accountability they have.

-- LynnGuelzow - 16 Nov 2006

That would not really be an option for us since we are not Catholic.

For the record, most parochial schools are very welcoming non-Catholic students. A significant percentage of the students in my son's school are not Catholic.

FWIW a not insignificant number of parents are gay or lesbian (well, this is San Francisco).

But it is, of course, what you as parents are comfortable with.

Conversely I would not have any problem sending my child to a Jewish Day school or the only Core Knowledge school in S.F., which is Lutheran.

-- BenCalvin - 17 Nov 2006

Haven't read the thread yet - but saw Lynn's comment....

How about I drive over there and stomp some committee members?

I'm in a mood.

God.

I was searching the Dobbs Ferry website for ammunition (they used to have a statement up about supporting students to succeed in their IB program) and I got so disgusted by everything there that I started to be madder at Dobbs Ferry than I am at Irvington.

Spill-over helicoptering!

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

How's this for a foundational belief:

Our schools are places where students think, create, solve, discover, and collaborate.

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

There is no learning AT ALL in Dobbs Ferry.

Ever.

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

I wonder if any of the kids ever remembers what they discovered in school that day.

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

Hey, Catherine, I've got a vision statement for you:

"The Granby Public Schools are committed to creating an atmosphere of trust that inspires a candid exchange of ideas, risk-taking, teamwork, creativity and acceptance of individuals."

Oh, and BTW, "High academic standards and personal acomplishments are valued."

All this on the new standards based report cards.

You'd think some of that trust and candid exchange of ideas would filter up to the administration trusting, or even listening, to parents on matters related to their children.

It does not. This is a one way street. We should trust them and accept their ideas.

-- LynnGuelzow - 17 Nov 2006

"Our schools are places where students think, create, solve, discover, and collaborate."

But, if our students don't do those things, then heck, it's not our problem.

They just better watch out when the parents start to think, create, solve, discover, and collaborate.

-- SteveH - 17 Nov 2006

"The Granby Public Schools are committed to creating an atmosphere of trust that inspires a candid exchange of ideas, risk-taking, teamwork, creativity and acceptance of individuals."

please tell me this is a joke

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

High academic standards and personal acomplishments are valued.

this.....

must.....

stop......

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

Lynn & all

Irvington Parents Forum

I think the Forum is working - "working" in the sense that it is opening up a conversation, opening up debate - and opening up the distinct possibility that some of the posts there are being forwarded all over creation.

In a district in which communication is as tightly controlled as it is in ours, and information about district "policies" (excuse me, "longstanding practices") is as hard to come by, the mere fact of the existence of the Forum changes the landscape.

You might want to be watching it....you're welcome to join, too - it's open.

I think it's high time for all these tiny little districts to know what the other tiny little top-dollar districts are up to.

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

It would be nice to hear schools say that they know that many parents have different opinions about education, but they are doing what they think is best. Why do they have to hide behind all of this flowery talk? Why do they have to pretend that everything is wonderful? Why do they have to act like this is their playground and that they get to make all of the rules? And these are the people who want to provide character education for our kids?

Granby, CT? Near Bradley Field? I grew up about 15 miles to the east and got a decent public school education. That was long ago. I don't know what it's like now.

-- SteveH - 17 Nov 2006

Let the forum be a model for many towns. Communication is the key.

Catherine -- I wish it were a joke. No, that "vision" statement was printed separately, in oversized print, with bold, taking up an entire sheet of paper at the front of the new standards based report card explanation. Oh, and the school seal is there too.

I feel like I've fallen through the looking glass. Up is down, excellence is mediocrity.

Until parents can control the language, we are powerless. This is how I end up arguing that mastery isn't mastery.

-- LynnGuelzow - 17 Nov 2006

High academic standards and personal acomplishments are valued.

teacher passive voice!

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

Google Master

We know NOTHING about the scores or what they mean.

The only reason I can say that he was "in the top 10%" is that I know how many other kids got 4s on the TONYSS. There were two kids in Christopher's class of 18 kids; from what I can tell that was typical of each class (there are 155 kids in Christopher's grade.)

The district is tiny, so the middle school isn't any larger; it's the same 155 kids.

Ed has now talked to the department chair, which was very helpful - at least in terms of having the school take Christopher's achievement seriously. (I sent the superintendent an email so blistering Ed was made at me....)

The chair says he is now "just above average" in his class.

The new test, which Christopher took last year, has a huge amount of writing, and girls are always favored in the scoring of writing; plus there's essentially no way to score writing with high cross-rater validity. (I'll get around to posting some of that stuff...but trust me, it can't be done. You have to have multiple choice tests in order to have test validity.)

The middle school strongly favors girls (the principal telling parents & staff that "everyone knows girls do better than boys in middle school"; the awards going to girls; etc.); plus we have studies showing that handwriting affects scoring....etc.

At this point, we have no idea whether his score is valid.

The chair said the same thing - they're scrambling to figure out whether the test is valid.

Last year was the first year it was given; the scores are a jumble; etc. This is from her.

Apparently he had a "perfect" score on grammar.....he bombed on "listening".....let me go find the link for the test.

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

OK, all the tests are here:

2006 Grades 3-8 Exams

We'll ask for a gender breakdown, to make sure we've got a level playing field.

Actually, his decline is 40 points.

90th percentile to "just above average"

horrifying

And we've got our board congratulating the administration on its good work.

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

Here, here.

SteveH^?, it is the very same Granby. By and large I think the kids are decently educated. That probably doesn't come across in many of my posts when I am overwhelmed with the negativity. Mostly, I'm annoyed that they believe, or at least posture themselves like they believe, that they are truly excellent and kids get a top notch, not-elsewhere-available education. This is not the case. Kids get a reasonably decent, above average (for the U.S.) education.

I wish they'd just come right out and describe what's going on. "We're doing what we think is right, there's room for disagreement on that score" would be refreshing. We don't need all the hyperbole. Most parents see the level of work their kids are performing at the homework level and can judge for themselves. But the more they start opening their thesaurauses to come up with new ways to tell me how great they are doing, the more distrustful I am.

The answer is probably school choice. Then we'd see how many parents are satisfied and how many try something new.

-- LynnGuelzow - 17 Nov 2006

I felt bad after sending my blistering email....at the time I was extremely upset about my mom and about Ed (who's had his surgery & is fine).....all of that emotion channelled into the email, which is wrong.

I was going to send an apology.

But .....I didn't, and I think that's fine.

The tone of our district is pure boosterism.

Every board meeting rings with compliments and praise; the Board compliments the administration & thanks them for all their good work; the administration praises the Board and thanks them....everything is fabulous here in Irvington.

Our high school principal, in response to a query about our SAT & AP scores, has just sent out an email saying, "Our scores are outstanding."

That was his answer.

"Our scores are outstanding."

What are our scores?

Can't find them on edline.

If we didn't have Google, we wouldn't know.

combined score: 1180
math: 602
verbal: 578

Prior to 1995, a verbal score of 578 was a 500.

$19,000 per pupil spending ($21,000 at the high school) and our "outstanding scores" are the equivalent of a 500 back when I took the SAT.

Our SATs are below the average 2005 SAT of entering freshmen at SUNY Stonybrook: 1213 (pdf file)

This is in a class of 100 kids. (Christopher's class, at 155, is much larger.)

So I think it's fine for the Board and the superintendent to know that a 40 point drop in a child's state test scores can and will provoke fury.

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

Robyn

Might it be that the school isn't educating special ed kids very well?

We have a nightmare with this.

A nightmare.

It's in the "always worse than you think" category.

Unfortunately, I've been told these stories in confidence, and they really can't be disguised so I can't post.

(I didn't know any of these things before starting the listserv.)

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Nov 2006

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