TheShoelaceProblem < Kitchen

01 Nov 2005 - 13:11

the shoelace problem

Now that Doug has solved my helmet problem, ^* I'm hoping someone can solve my shoelace problem.

A couple of years ago the then-director of special ed (we're on our 3rd in 7 years) told me to forget about teaching Andrew to tie his shoes. Forget about it as in: forget about it for good. It's not going to happen, don't speak of it again.

Naturally this was my cue to decide Andrew would be learning to tie his shoes come hell or high water.

[pause]

Wow. Hell or high water. I've been saying hell-or-high-water most of my adult life, and until Hurricane Katrina it hadn't occurred to me what the first person to say come-hell-or-high-water was actually talking about.

He was talking about teaching his autistic kid to tie his shoes in the midst of torrential rains and major flooding.

Which reminds me: possibly the only good thing about ageing is that you get to find out the true meaning of sayings. Most sayings come from dogs, I find, except for the ones that come from square dancing. Wolf it down, dog your heels, dog days, dog eat dog, let sleeping dogs lie, and so on. Pretty much the whole lot. Dogs have had a big influence, being our co-evolutionists and all.

What comes from square dancing, you ask? Back to square one comes from square dancing.

Speaking of which, we were talking about:

tying shoes

Andrew is now actively interested in tying his shoes, and is making progress.

But I can't remember the easy way of tying shoes his aide showed me a couple of years ago. (She's not his aide anymore, or I'd ask her.) And I can't find it on the internet.

I may have now reconstructed it for myself (discovery knowledge! that's the ticket!) But if anyone knows how it's done, I'd appreciate hearing from you.

^*not to mention my number line problem, my fraction problem, and my distributive property problem

update

wow!

Look what KDeRosa found!

You guys are amazing.

Back to main page.

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Did something happen to "Recent Changes," or is it my computer? It's missing. Or, is it somewhere else?

-- SusanS - 01 Nov 2005

Recent Changes has become What's New!

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2005

I think.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2005

What does the graph mean?

-- TracyW - 01 Nov 2005

Actually, that's a good question. What does the graph mean?

-- CarolynJohnston - 01 Nov 2005

OH. We're supposed to click the shoelace problem link at the top of the page.

It looks like a cool article!

It appears we need a new acronym to go with RTFM: CTFL*.

* Click The ****ing Link.

-- CarolynJohnston - 01 Nov 2005

Are you talking about the bunny-ears way? That's the way we taught Ben, but I'm not sure it's any easier than the through-the-rabbit-hole way. (What is it about shoe-tying and bunnies anyway?)

-- CarolynJohnston - 01 Nov 2005

Daniel can now tie his shoes. However, he cannot double knot his shoes. How is it possible that he has mastered the harder algorithm of shoe tying and cannot master the double knotting algorithim?

Anyway, not being able to double knot your shoes leads to a lot of shoe tying practice. However, it is deadly on the soccer field because the ref will order you to tie your shoes but play continues. Talk about pressure!!!

So we always make sure his shoes are double knotted and he does not get much practice.

-- AnneDwyer - 01 Nov 2005

It is the bunny ears way!

What is the bunny ears way?

If it's what I figured out myself, I'm not sure it's easier, either.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2005

I'm not even trying on the double-knotting, though Andrew is intensely curious about this final privileged step.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2005

So today Mrs. Roth, my least favorite middle school teacher, told the class, and I quote, "Stop that drumming and banging. Are you guys retarded? "

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2005

I can't even THINK how to word the email I need to write about this one.

I'm SERIOUSLY behind on protest-email-to-the-school, I'm afraid.

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2005

Maybe I should just send her a note saying, "Yoo-hoo! Ms. Roth! Two retarded kids in our household!"

-- CatherineJohnson - 01 Nov 2005

The two most popular methods of tying shoes are the bunny ears and the one-loop wrap. The bunny ears method is easier to understand although it requires more coordination.

Link here. This is a strange site.

-- CarolynJohnston - 01 Nov 2005

which subject does Mrs. Roth teach?

-- CarolynJohnston - 01 Nov 2005

Run from the Bunny Ears, I tell you!

My 11 year-old still takes an eternity making his stupid bunny ears. Had we just put a little more time into the old one-loop wrap he would be quickly and efficiently tying his shoes instead of looking like he did when he was 5.

The bunny ears are easier, I think, for the little ones, but it's hard to get a tight tie, and speed, well, forget it.

-- SusanS - 01 Nov 2005

Catherine,

We're still hunting down velcro shoes. I keep telling my son that soon the velcro will end and he must deal with tying his shoes. He does know how to do it, but he has a tough time.

-- SusanS - 01 Nov 2005

ok, I think we're sticking with the one-loop wrap.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

This is the aptly named Better Bow from The Klutz Book of Knots.

It only has one extra step -- an extra loop around, but what it lacks in simplicity it makes up for in its remarkable ability to stay tied.

Trust me on this one, once you go better bow, you'll never go back. Use it yourself until your child learns to tie a bow himself and reduce your shoe kotting duties by 99%. Then teach her how to tie it when she learns.

-- KDeRosa - 02 Nov 2005

BTW, if you only buy one book on knots this year, make sure it's the The Klutz Book of Knots.

First, it comes with its own rope and you can use the spiral bound cardboard book to learn how to tie the knots. Beyond cool. Make boy scouts jealous.

Seriously, it has about 20 knots in it, if you learn the dozen critical knots, you'll never need to learn to tie another knot again.

-- KDeRosa - 02 Nov 2005

this is funny—I spotted Ken's attachment and put it on the front page at the same time he was putting it here!

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

Ms. Roth teaches English language arts.

That's what makes her so sensitive to the power of words.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

Catherine,

That was absolutely horrible!!!

I met with my school's pricipal and the district's curriculum director today. I had the surreal experience of having them acknowledge that, yes, it's true, Everyday Math does not have any standard algorithims in it. But we love it and a math major chose it.

How do you supplement a curriculum that does not contain one standard algorithim. Isn't that called getting a complete curriculum and teaching them both??

On an interesting note, the No Child Left Behind legislation is forcing the states to revise their standards. Michigan is not only having to make their standards more rigorous, but they are finally being forced to detail what students must know at the end of every grade. Apparently, the Michigan standards only listed what was required for students to know at the end of 5th grade, 8th grade and 12th grade. Oh, and long division was not a requirement!!!!

So this all means that 8th grade algebra is going to become the default in our district.

I wonder how the district can show that EM can help them meet the new standard when it doesn't teach standard algorithims?

Did I mention standard algorithims enough? I think I mentioned it at least 10 times in my meeting.

-- AnneDwyer - 02 Nov 2005

yes, it's true, Everyday Math does not have any standard algorithims in it. But we love it and a math major chose it

yes it's true it has no algorithms?

SOOOOOOO YESSSSS!
We have no 'gorithms!
We have no
'gorithms
today!

Sing with me!

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

So this all means that 8th grade algebra is going to become the default in our district.

That ended up meaning nothing here.

New York state now requires algebra in the 8th grade, but it does not require Regents A in the 8th grade.

The 8th graders this year have an extra half-hour (or hour?) of math 3 days a week, in order to take the regular course they always took, along with the new algebra-stuff they have to take.

Then next year, in 9th grade, they'll take......algebra.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

How do you supplement a curriculum that does not contain one standard algorithim. Isn't that called getting a complete curriculum and teaching them both??

Yup.

At least, that's the way I see it.

I think if your child is in a curriculum that has no algorithms, you have to teach your own on the side.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

I think I mentioned it at least 10 times in my meeting.

That is the exact way to handle things.

Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Then, when you're done, repeat, repeat, repeat.

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

The problem I'm encountering with parents here is that they're impressed that TRAILBLAZERS introduces fairly advanced material early on.

None of these parents has seen the 5th grade book, which has zero 'advanced' material as far as I can tell, as well as precious little grade-level material.

These books seem to get less challenging as they go along....

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

TRAILBLAZERS asks for 'fluency' in the math facts.

I'm not sure whether it teaches the multiplication algorithm; I think it does.

Does not teach long division.

Only 'forgiving division' (partial products division).

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

I just found this at Arthur Hu's web site:

MATH TRAILBLAZERS ANOTHER CONSTRUCTIVIST NIGHTMARE
http://www.illinoisloop.org/mathtrail.html A review of Kendall/Hunt’s
Math Trailblazers Second Grade, Unit 11: "Ways of Subtracting with Larger Numbers" By Rebecca P., April 2002
Any way but the standard way is OK.
z55\clip\2002\04\mathtrail.htm

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

"Trust me on this on, once you go better bow, you'll never go back. Use it yourself until your child learns to tie a bow himself and reduce your shoe kotting duties by 99%. Then teach her how to tie it when she learns."

My son's philosophy is that you tie the shoes once when you buy them and then struggle for 5 minutes each time you try to slip them on. This comes from someone who can tie a bowline with his eyes closed and do Jacob's Ladder in about 5 seconds. He also likes to knit and crochet. He liked Velcro shoes, but he would never undo the Velcro. At least I don't have the problem of the laces never getting tied in the first place. Perhaps I can tell him that there is this "Better Bow" technique, but maybe it would be too difficult for him to figure out. (Reverse psychology works every time.)

-- SteveH - 02 Nov 2005

Yup, it's any algorithm except the standard one.

And they will defend it. Like the principal saying that those kids could draw the boxes and solve the multidigit multiplication problem before she could. (She actually said this.) But then I asked: what do they do when they have to mulitply decimals?

No answer. No answer at all. Because it doesn't work in all situations. That is the point of a standard algorithim. It works in every situation and you only have to learn it once.

-- AnneDwyer - 02 Nov 2005

Like the principal saying that those kids could draw the boxes and solve the multidigit multiplication problem before she could.

hey, don't knock it

sounds like those kids have procedural fluency

unfortunately, they've got procedural fluency in LATTICE MULTIPLICATION, but you can't have everything

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

I just remembered.

Ms. Roth is the teacher who told us that, at the end of their time with her, 'Your child will be a better person."

-- CatherineJohnson - 02 Nov 2005

Anne,

Do the math teachers at your middle school or high school know what is up with these people at the grade school? I'd love to know their take on your meeting, especially since these kids are coming their way.

-- SusanS - 02 Nov 2005

Susan,

I emailed the best math teacher in our middle school.

She uses her own curriculum and is the advisor for Math Counts. Everyone raves about her.

She said to talk to the principal.

Everyone, even a tenured teacher, has to be politically correct, it seems.

The curriculum director at the meeting did mention that they are finally starting to have the 5th and 6 th grade teachers talk and the 8th and 9th grade teachers talk. So I asked, "Do the 6th grade teachers think the 5th graders are ready?" "oh, Absolutely," she said.

But the best tenured teacher refers you to the prinicipal.

I wonder what those meetings were really about.

-- AnneDwyer - 02 Nov 2005

We have a lot of political correctness around here, also. There is always a kind of professional tension. It's like their own thin blue line. Since they're usually tenured after a couple of years I can't figure out what they're so afraid of.

Sometimes I just wonder where they parked their common sense.

-- SusanS - 02 Nov 2005

"Sometimes I just wonder where they parked their common sense."

There's covered parking out back; they only use their common sense on weekends and don't want the doors dinged.

-- DougSundseth - 02 Nov 2005

I love that!!! I am going to start using it....

We have a math program that doesn't teach any of the standard algorithims written by PhD^? in math and chosen by math majors....Now, where did we park that common sense??

-- AnneDwyer - 02 Nov 2005

Susan: My vague impression after reading lots of edublogs by teachers over the last few months is that administraters have a lot of ways of making a tenured teacher's life completely miserable. For example, making sure that next year your class includes all of the "worst" students. Tenure protects them from being fired out of hand, but it would seem there are a lot of ways to make your teachers want to quit.

-- LesleyStevens - 04 Nov 2005

Not being 'politically correct' is one of the few ways a tenured teacher can lose his/her job. Of course, it isn't allowed, but principals etc will do quite amazing things to get rid of someone who disagrees with them. And these teachers will usually get no support from the union when seeking compensation, while teachers who are incompetant or who abuse their students will.

On the shoelace tying, when doing the first step, tuck the lace back under, so that you have four waves instead of two. This stops the first 'knot' from slipping and loosening whilst the kid performs the rest of the steps.

-- SamanthaRawson - 05 Nov 2005

There are always ZILLIONS of ways to make a person want to quit.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

WAIT

I'm not following Samantha's comment.

I'm going to have to PRINT THIS OUT TOO.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

Ann

Don't do anything by email.

All email is owned by the business, the school, etc.

If you want to have a candid conversation with a teacher, do it face-to-face.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

The graph at the top is supposed to be lacing algorithms, I believe.

-- KtmGuest - 02 Dec 2005

WebLogForm
Title:	the shoelace problem
TopicType:	WebLog
SubjectArea:	AutismAndAspergers, CollegeMath
LogDate:	200511010810

Attachment	Action	Size	Date	Who	Comment
betterbow.gif	manage	67.6 K	02 Nov 2005 - 00:52	KDeRosa	Better Bow Schematic

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