Comments

You have to tell us about Coffee with the Principal.

-- CarolynJohnston - 04 Nov 2005

I'm wondering at the 80% pass rate, what percentage, if any, of KIPP students is failing whatever simple test NY is using for NCLB compliance?

Is this data publically available?

They can't be using the Regenst exam or else Irvington would be classified as a failing school under NCLB. Imagine that uproar.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

"....How do we broaden our children's experience of math? How do we give them hands-on experience? How do we show them you can use math to measure a room?"

If he wants his kids to "go to university", then they will have to do a lot more than be able to measure a room. By the way, you don't use math to measure a room, you use a tape measure.

PF & APK: You won't get an argument from me! I believe in hands-on. I know we can do more of it!

Just what does he think the problem is - not enough hands-on time?

etc., etc., ending with:

PF & APK:, looking at Me: I think we agree.

Me: We don't agree.

Incredible! Defend your position by making the opposition speechless.

Did you get a chance to talk about curricula at all? I think if I ever got a chance to argue for better math, I would put up a chart showing the types of problems the two math curricula expect the students to solve by the end of each grade.

If they argue apple and oranges, I would ask parents which sets of problems they would want their kids to be able to do. If they argue that the curriculum is for private (pre-selected) schools, I would ask them whether public schools are only for dumb kids nowadays. I would show them that if they want their kids to get into college prep math in high school, then they will have to handle the more rigorous curriculum. If they talk about hands-on, I would say fine, just show me how you are going to cover all the required material needed to get into college prep math.

However, I have never had the opportunity. The superintendent was going to restart the Citizen's Curriculum Committee, but then I guess she thought it wasn't such a good idea.

-- SteveH - 04 Nov 2005

Kind of makes the discussion of bar models seem trivial.

-- SteveH - 04 Nov 2005

The bad news is: what all the other Irvington moms are worked up about is: English language arts.

Specifically: writing.

Apparently, our writing instruction sucks eggs

I told you the English language program was likely to be at least as bad as the math program and probably much worse.

I've said this before, in math 2+2 still equals 4; we still have an objective benchmark no matter how hard the constructivists try to take it away. In english, 2 + 2 can equal walrus if that's what the teacher wants to believe. We've lost the objective standard -- it's much more difficult to prove that things are bad.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

"How do we show them you can use math to measure a room?"

I wonder what percentage of the kids could figure out the area of a room that is 11' 9-3/4" x 14' 2-7/16" with a 4' 4-1/2" x 8' 11" cutout in one corner? And tell me the cost of carpeting that room with carpet that costs $18.97/square meter if there's a 6" uncarpeted border around the outside of the room (neglecting wastage).

I'd bet that students at a school with a rigorous math curriculum (KIPP in Brooklyn?) could figure those out.

If you want a "hands-on" experience, how about putting those hands on a few math worksheets every day.

Speaking of which, I built a version of the random worksheets spreadsheet to give random addition problems (up to 12 + 12). I gave one to my son last night, and he loved it -- 25 questions, 100%, 5 minutes and 41 seconds. And he corrected some backwards numbers without prompting. Not automaticity yet, but we're working toward it. He couldn't wait to show it to his mom.

-- DougSundseth - 04 Nov 2005

"We need KUMON for expository writing."

They don't teach expository writing anymore at public schools. It's all no-standard creative writing. It starts with Kid Spelling in Kindergarten. Then comes daily writing journals where the teacher writes in the margin: "It sounds like you had fun at Scott's birthday party." No red marks on grammar, spelling, or punctuation. You don't want to turn them off to writing. They will end up liking to write, but won't be able to rub two words together to start a fire.

"In english, 2 + 2 can equal walrus if that's what the teacher wants to believe. We've lost the objective standard -- it's much more difficult to prove that things are bad."

Very true, and we can't even make our point in math where it is supposed to be objective. Apples and oranges is what we get.

-- SteveH - 04 Nov 2005

Don't forget that the carpet most likely comes in ten foot wide rolls and that adjoining pieces of carpet must run in the same direction.

Now tell me how many linear yards of carpet I need to buy to carpet the room that results in the least amount of wastage.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

MSM: They have to raise money! That's why they have to have their 8th graders passing Regents. They have to show results.

Me: speechless

LOL! Your hair would have set back on fire if you had any left from the last stupid statement.

"How do we show them you can use math to measure a room?"

That's touching. His kids are going to the university, but he wants other people's children to make sure they can measure a room. Real world experience and all. Of course they could measure a room if they could actually measure. Oh, and calculate accurately.

This passive, status quo-loving parent thing is such a problem. I think intimidation of the subject matter is more at play than we may realize. I'm sure I'm the weakest math person hanging around here, but I'm surprised at how much more I know than many other parents. But I've also sat down and started re-learning it as much as possible. I'm surprised at the number of parents, and I mean the ones who care and are concerned, that will not do that.

Maybe like our kids, they don't know what they don't know. At least until it's too late.

-- SusanS - 04 Nov 2005

"One reason they are unwilling to define the goal of education narrowly as academic excellence is that they believe that only some children are capable of achieving it."

They don't want to make education (K-8 especially) a filter. They spiral and enrich and let the later grades (and the real world) do the filtering. At least it won't be their problem.

-- SteveH - 04 Nov 2005

They can't be using the Regents exam or else Irvington would be classified as a failing school under NCLB. Imagine that uproar.

The Regents is normally given....in the middle of sophomore year, I believe. (Actually, Rudbiecka Hirta will know this best, since she attended NY state schools during the 'integrated curriculum' period, which has now ended.)

Carolyn took it, too, but I think she took it when algebra 1 & geometry were distinct courses.

What the KIPP Academy has done is accelerate all of their kids. It really is extraordinary. They are teaching them algebra in the 8th grade, and they're teaching them to mastery.

These are VERY disadvantaged kids who show up NOT KNOWING THEIR MULTIPLICATION TABLES.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Did you get a chance to talk about curricula at all? I think if I ever got a chance to argue for better math, I would put up a chart showing the types of problems the two math curricula expect the students to solve by the end of each grade.

No chance to talk curriculum.

The other moms were obviously getting pissed off at me, so I didn't push it any further than I already had, which was plenty far.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

I told you the English language program was likely to be at least as bad as the math program and probably much worse.

Yeah, you did say that.....and this is a case where it's time for me to pay attention.

I've blown off writing because a) I had my hands full with math and b) because Ed and I are both writers, and because Christopher seems pretty good at the subject, I've been assuming we can.....wing it, I guess.

I think I need to contact the legendary 'Mr. Dobbs,' a recently retired Irvington middle school teacher.

Apparently the high school teachers have told parents that they can TELL which students, coming in, had Mr. Dobbs.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

I actually taught writing for years--I won an award for teaching--but this is a whole different situation.

The idea of teaching my own child, forcing him to write for me, etc......

yuck

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

If I can talk to Mr. Dobbs, I will.

I want to find out exactly what he did.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Speaking of which, I built a version of the random worksheets spreadsheet to give random addition problems (up to 12 + 12). I gave one to my son last night, and he loved it -- 25 questions, 100%, 5 minutes and 41 seconds. And he corrected some backwards numbers without prompting. Not automaticity yet, but we're working toward it. He couldn't wait to show it to his mom.

I love it!

Kids LOVE doing those worksheets.

I've got to post some more of the KUMON article.

Same thing there.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

MSM: They have to raise money! That's why they have to have their 8th graders passing Regents. They have to show results.

Me: speechless

LOL! Your hair would have set back on fire if you had any left from the last stupid statement

THIS WAS A PARENT TALKING.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

This passive, status quo-loving parent thing is such a problem. I think intimidation of the subject matter is more at play than we may realize. I'm sure I'm the weakest math person hanging around here, but I'm surprised at how much more I know than many other parents. But I've also sat down and started re-learning it as much as possible. I'm surprised at the number of parents, and I mean the ones who care and are concerned, that will not do that.

This is a HUGE problem.

Teachers here have told me that parents come in and say, "I was never any good at math."

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

The problem with math ed, from my perspective, is that we need a huge paradigm shift in parents' consciousness, too.

Parents here look at me as if I'm from Mars.

The whole idea that our kids could compete with Singapore kids is just NUTS.

I've also had so many parents tell me Asians are genetically superior.

Well, once you're up against the Genetically Superior argument, you've got to start turning a lot of somersaults.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Stevenson & Stigler's book really is worth reading. The chapter on cultural differences just blows you away.

It accords with every experience I've ever had.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

This passive, status quo-loving parent thing is such a problem.

And how. Funny thing is they tend to be parents that went to college. If you learned anything incollege it should have been that your high school didn't teach you enugh.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

Math is something a few geniuses, plus the entire populations of China, Japan, Singapore, and, apparently, India, are Born To Do.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

The whole idea that our kids could compete with Singapore kids is just NUTS.

Welcome to the club.

My letter to the editor provoked the following response:

I do take issue with your international comparisons. We exist in this society with its sports obsessed/anti-intellectual bias. There is a limit to what we can do. This is especially the case in a democratic institution like the public schools.

To which I responded:

Cultural differences and racial IQ account for some of the international comparison difference. But cetainly not all of it. We can do better. When our curriculum is as good as Singapore's, then we can talk about cultural issues if we still fail to achieve their level of excellence. An affluent school disctrict like ours should at least be performing as well as the Singapore median. If my hamfisted analysis is even close to being accurate, we are still in the neighborhood of about 2/3rd of a standard deviation behind. I wonder how far above the median the affluent school districts in Singapore (our real comparison group) are performing?

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

I do take issue with your international comparisons. We exist in this society with its sports obsessed/anti-intellectual bias. There is a limit to what we can do. This is especially the case in a democratic institution like the public schools.

Did this come from a parent or school personnel?

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Lawrence Steinberg has data showing that IQ accounts for nothing in U.S. schools.

That's how skewed our curve is.

We're not even close to the IQ ceiling.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Again, Stevenson & Stigler found no difference in Asian versus white IQ.

I'll get that passage posted. They did extensive testing....

Plus, when it comes to math, Asians have not been important contributors historically.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

When our curriculum is as good as Singapore's, then we can talk about cultural issues if we still fail to achieve their level of excellence. An affluent school disctrict like ours should at least be performing as well as the Singapore median.

Good one.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

OK, here is a kid ACTUALLY SETTING HIS HAIR ON FIRE

Setting his hair on fire, taking a picture, AND POSTING IT ON THE INTERNET.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

I wonder how he's doing in math?

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Did this come from a parent or school personnel?

School board member. He actually, agreed with most of what I wrote. This might be the only thing he disagreed with me on. If I had permission, I'd post the whole thing.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

oh

no

no, he's not setting his hair on fire

he's cutting his hair by setting it on fire

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Was this the school board member who was up for re-election?

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

I think it's REALLY bad he's citing IQ differences.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

oh, he didn't cite IQ

well, he's right about the culture

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Was this the school board member who was up for re-election?

Yes. I sent an advance version of the letter to both candidates. Both responded positively.

He actually only cited cultural differences. I upped the ante and added the IQ difference and then called the bet by saying it still shouldn't make a difference.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

I'm serious about this, Ken.

Don't bring up IQ.

EVERYONE, universally, believes ASIANS ARE SMARTER.

The minute you activate that neural network, the argument is lost.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

I know you keep citing the Stevenson & Stigler study. But, they seem to be the only ones who have come to this conclusion. Check out the articles at La Griffe Du Lion for a lot of dicsusion about IQ and group differences.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

Take a look at this graph.

And bear in mind that "asian" includes the northeast asians (japaneses, chinese, korean) who supposedly do have a higher IQ and the southeast asians who do not.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

alright, that does it!

i'm cutting & pasting!

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

My graph has four colors so I'm confident it will win.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

"I do take issue with your international comparisons. We exist in this society with its sports obsessed/anti-intellectual bias. There is a limit to what we can do. This is especially the case in a democratic institution like the public schools."

Major cop-out. They should hand this out to all parents. "Don't expect more from us because it isn't our problem. There is nothing we can do. He is saying that there is a fundamental flaw in the idea of "democratic" public schools - that you can't get a world-class education.

If public schools cannot or will not set higher standards and separate those who can or will work from those who can't or won't, then perhaps he is right about public schools. So what is he doing about it? Is he advocating unlimited charter schools or full vouchers? I doubt it.

Teachers and administrators see it only as me, me, me; not as what is best for individual kids. I saw this attitude with a sixth grade teacher who complained about standardized testing because the kids coming into his class didn't know the times table. His response should have be to find out why they didn't know the material and fix it. High school math teachers know that there is a problem in the lower grades but they don't do anything about it.

As for IQ differences, I would display math problems from 6th grade in the two curricula and ask whether IQ accounts for that difference. The problem is that the argument is done in a public forum where there are no rules, no agenda, and no requirements. They don't have to do anything. They just have to bluster to get through to the next day. Things will quiet down like they always have in the past.

-- SteveH - 04 Nov 2005

From: WOMEN AND MINORITIES IN SCIENCE:

In fact, the 1990 census shows that the Asian/Pacific Islander category for SAT purposes includes Chinese, Filipino, Japanese, Asian Indians, Koreans, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Hmong, Laotian, Thai and other Asians. Also included are Pacific Islanders, which further subdivide into Polynesian Hawaiians, Samoans, Tongans, other Polynesians, Micronesians, Guamanians, Melanesians and unspecified others. Out of these, 48 percent are Chinese, Japanese or Korean, the troika of high achievers.

All the groups designated by the College Board have math SAT distributions with standard deviations clustered about 100, except the Asians/Pacific Islanders. And no wonder. Their standard deviation is closer to 120, showing their diverse nature. The distributions for 1987 for both Asians and Whites are shown in Figure 2, where the qualitative difference between the two distributions is apparent to the naked eye. The distribution for Asians is uncharacteristically broad, with a flattened top. It hints at bimodality.

An attempt was made to fit the "Asian" MSAT distribution for 1987 and 1992 (the years for which we had access to the ethnic distribution data) to a sum of Gaussians. Since the elite Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and South Asians made up about half this group, the Gaussians were given equal weight. (See Figure 3.) The least-squares fit suggests that this Asian quartet performed with a mean of approximately 627 for 1987 and 641 for 1992. The remaining Asians had mean scores of approximately 426 (1987) and 444 (1992), not unlike American Indians. Choosing Whites as the reference group (D = 0), and averaging over both years yielded D = -1.24 for elite Asians, and 0.47 for other Asians. Other group D's were obtained from 1998 MSAT mean scores as follows: Hispanic = 0.683, Black = 0.99, and American Indian = 0.437.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

If public schools cannot or will not set higher standards and separate those who can or will work from those who can't or won't, then perhaps he is right about public schools. So what is he doing about it? Is he advocating unlimited charter schools or full vouchers? I doubt it.

We have the same problem in my school district that Catherine has. Many parents like teh child-centered nonsense. My school board member actually alluded to this point and said that in a larger school district you might be able to have charter schools run on different pedagogic priciples, but that we were too small.

I responded:

I understand all too well the substantial minority of parents who simply adore all the child-centered nonsense. Don't we have enough students and resources to carve out a class for them? Just limit the class to the kids who have sufficient cognitive ability to learn enough to pass the PSSAs. At least then, we can segregate their PSSA, SATI, SATII, and AP (not likely) scores from the rest of the school and will have a basis for comparison -- they can underachieve all they want. Most parents still want their kids to succeed academically, but we have no way to show them that if they chose the child-centered ways, their children are more likely not to achieve.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

My graph has four colors so I'm confident it will win.

You got me there.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Major cop-out. They should hand this out to all parents. "Don't expect more from us because it isn't our problem. There is nothing we can do. He is saying that there is a fundamental flaw in the idea of "democratic" public schools - that you can't get a world-class education.

YOUR ASSIGNMENT:

READ LAWRENCE STEINBERG!

RIGHT NOW!

Steinberg's book is another thing I haven't gotten around to posting yet.....he Answers All. (I'm pretty serious about that.)

The only thing is, I disagree with his conclusion.

He says that school reform will do nothing; the problem is the culture.

I think he's right (because I think he proved his case).

But I disagree that schools can do nothing.

What, exactly, did KIPP do?

Changed the culture.

When you look at schools that are succeeding in teaching minority kids, you see a huge cultural RULE.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Somewhat paradoxically, I think it's a little trickier to talk about affluent suburban schools tampering with the surrounding culture.....

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

oops, I thought I was responding to Ken!

HE'S THE ONE WITH THE MAJOR NEXT ASSIGNMENT!

But actually, I was planning to tell everyone THE NEXT ASSIGNMENT IS READ LAWRENCE STEINBERG!

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

My graph has four colors so I'm confident it will win.

You got me there.

See, my higher UNORTHODOX score trumps your higher RUTHLESS score.

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

Is the Steinberg article onlne?

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

Isn't Steinberg part of the anthropological school for explaining IQ differences? I'm pretty sure all the current research has proven that IQ is mostly genetic based and unchangeable. Moreover, the anthropological school cannot explain why IQ regresses to the mean (like other genetically determined traits).

-- KDeRosa - 04 Nov 2005

The distribution for Asians is uncharacteristically broad, with a flattened top. It hints at bimodality.

What does this mean?

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

I'm pretty sure that twin studies are the gold standard for comparing genetic vs. environmental influences on children. For instance:

Same-Age Unrelated Siblings: A Unique Test of Within-Family Environmental Influences on IQ Similarity

Nancy L. Segal California State University, Fullerton, CA

Pairs of unrelated siblings of the same age, reared together from infancy (UST-SA), uniquely replicate the rearing situations of dizygotic (DZ) twins. These dyads offer a new behavioral-genetic design for examining genetic and environmental influences on behavior. An IQ intraclass correlation of .17, based on 21 UST-SAs, is substantially lower than the correlations of .86, .60, and .50 reported for monozygotic (MZ) twins, DZ twins, and siblings, respectively. This finding supports an explanatory model of intelligence that includes genetic factors. The very modest IQ similarity between UST-SAs, despite their common rearing, suggest that the shared environment has a very small effect on intellectual development and supports the position that individuals respond to environments in ways consistent with their genetic predispositions. The results also challenge some critics' views that the behavioral resemblance of MZ twins is primarily a function of shared experience

Segal, N. L. (1997). Same-age unrelated siblings: A unique test of within-family environmental influences on IQ similarity. Journal of Educational Psychology, 89(2), 381-390.

I make no comment on the internals of that study, as I've only read what you see here, but if accurate this would seem to support Ken's position.

-- DougSundseth - 04 Nov 2005

"The distribution for Asians is uncharacteristically broad, with a flattened top. It hints at bimodality."

If the distribution is bimodal, there are two peaks. Normally, this would mean two populations with disparate characteristics (particularly different means) mixed into one graph.

If, for instance, there is a systematic difference in the means of NE Asians and SE Asians, a graph of a mixed sample would show bimodality, with one peak for the mean of NE Asians and one peak for the mean of SE Asians.

If the peaks of the bell curves are close relative to the width of the bell curves, the resulting graph would show something like a plateau with each shoulder near one of the bell-curve peaks.

-- DougSundseth - 04 Nov 2005

Segal, N. L. (1997). Same-age unrelated siblings: A unique test of within-family environmental influences on IQ similarity. Journal of Educational Psychology, 89(2), 381-390.

I edited Nancy's book on twins!

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

See, my higher UNORTHODOX score trumps your higher RUTHLESS score.

Ken, dear.

RUTHLESS ALWAYS TRUMPS UNORTHODOX.

in the end..........

(I need a ghoul gif here, and I'm betting you can find me one!)

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Of course, it's true you don't see too many Asians setting their hair on fire.

That much, I'll give you.

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

If, for instance, there is a systematic difference in the means of NE Asians and SE Asians, a graph of a mixed sample would show bimodality, with one peak for the mean of NE Asians and one peak for the mean of SE Asians.

That's what I assumed....

-- CatherineJohnson - 04 Nov 2005

Sounds like you were being delphied.

http://www.iror.org/delphi.asp

It's where they deliberately don't answer your questions or make you look unreasonable, etc.

To get around it, you really need to get together with a few other people (the Language-Arts Mum is a possibility) and they back you up and ask other questions. It's easy for them to make one person look unreasonable, but much more difficult when there are four or five of you.

Prepare in advance as though it is an interview, and get a few other parents involved, and then you may get a break through.

-- SamanthaRawson - 05 Nov 2005

They don't even have to delphi anyone!

They do it automatically!

Then they turn around and do it to each other!

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

It's just extraordinary.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

A friend of ours was there; she lodged a complaint about the dorky Interim Reports we received.

(Ed just said, 'It's the opposite of solidarity.')

So our friend lodges a complaint about the ludicrous interim reports we were sent.

Ed and I both chimed in, agreeing that they were ludicrous.

Our friend wanted a personal note from the teachers about her kid's progress.

As it turns out, the 'comments' on the interim reports are in fact canned responses. There are 25 canned responses, and a teacher can select any one of the 25.

We actually won this round, because I said that Christopher's report card sounded exactly like Jimmy's report card, and seeing as how Christopher is NORMAL and Jimmy is SEVERELY AUTISTIC, that's not very INFORMATIVE.

Then, when everyone started to give me an argument, I said, "Christopher took one test in English, and got an F. The teacher's comment was 'making satisfactory progress.' What does that mean?"

So anyway, our friend wanted personal comments.

EVERYONE JUMPED ALL OVER HER. The two principals said this couldn't possibly happen, and all the moms chimed in and said, 'THE PERSONAL COMMENTS WOULD ALL SOUND THE SAME, TOO' and then the two principals said, 'THEY SURE WOULD' and it just went on and on and on.

++++

ANYONE who voices a complaint is INSTANTLY ganged up on by ALL THE OTHER PARENTS.

Then, when one of the GANGING-UP PARENTS raises her own complaint, EVERYONE GANGS UP ON HER.

I started consciously and purposely supporting ALL parent complaints, on principle (OK, that's a lie) and no one appeared to feel even the slightest appreciation that I was doing this.

Gobsmacked!

So then, after awhile, I switched strategies.

When a mom started shoveling on the praise, I'd interject with a little, 'I don't feel that way,' or, 'We've had a VERY BAD YEAR WITH MS. ROTH' and so on.

I figured, if you can't beat 'em, exasperate them to death.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

To get around it, you really need to get together with a few other people (the Language-Arts Mum is a possibility) and they back you up and ask other questions. It's easy for them to make one person look unreasonable, but much more difficult when there are four or five of you.

That is excellent advice, though.

I need confederates.

I can't imagine, however, where I'm going to GET confederates.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

Still and all, around here the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I am now the Ticked-Off Math Mom, and I will be handled with care.

The fact is, my own child is now exactly where I want him to be. And here's something interesting: the latest extended response problem was not sent home, but was done in class.

Of course I figured this was the beginning of the end. Christopher can't possibly invent modular arithmetic at age 11.

But no.

Christopher came home and told me he'd gotten a 10 out of 10 on the problem.

Clearly, the teacher gave them a problem they were actually capable of doing.

I've written more than one email to the Assistant Superintendent of Curriculum on the subject of the extended response problems.....and now, all of a sudden, they're being given in class, and they are reasonable problems.

There's quite a bit of give-and-take in the schools here, and high motivation & energy....

I was starting to write a comment about the 'cognitive unconscious' on Carolyn's post this morning, before my browser shut down.

I think my cognitive unconscious knows something about dealing with my kids' schools that my cognitive conscious doesn't.

-- CatherineJohnson - 05 Nov 2005

Is it safe to assume that none of the parents are math people?

Sometimes all it takes is someone with some math street cred (mathematician, scientist, engineer) to convince the parents that the school doesn't know what it's doing, especially, like in your case, when there's empirical evidence to back them up.

-- KDeRosa - 05 Nov 2005

This is so much like the experience I had when Ben's elementary school switched from doing Saxon to doing Everyday math in 4th grade.

I was outraged, incensed. I took it on myself to talk to other parents and get their impressions of the curriculum. They all thought it was just fine. Some of their kids were doing better, some worse than with saxon -- they said. Of course, nobody was comparing the contents of the two curricula. They just went with the flow. There was no way they were going to support me in a revolt.

Same thing this year. Even my friend whose son is in the same Connected Math class, who taught a group of 4th graders at his son's schoool how to multiply a couple of years ago because they weren't learning how to do it, isn't willing to consider action.

Getting a lousy curriculum out of the school -- getting things changed -- takes concerted and politically effective effort, and I'm about as politically effective as a slice of bread.

It's interesting that your Irvington parents are willing to be up in arms about the writing program but not the math program.

I think Ben's writing program also sucks eggs. I think he should be doing lots of themes, as he did in grade school; he ought to, if he's ever to have a prayer of actually getting it. Instead he's writing letters about what he's reading.

Homeschooling, anyone? Honestly, we may as well teach our own kids everything; we will be anyway.

And that Dad with the schpiel about wanting kids to know how to measure a room with math -- I know his kind, too. I have a friend who's like that. He thinks Everyday Math is a great idea, but for him it's all kind of abstract. He's a well-known scientist and isn't involved with helping his kids with school the way his wife is. He's also taking for granted what he has in spades -- procedural math skills -- and wanting more on top of it, not realizing that he can't necessarily count on the same thing for his kids.

-- CarolynJohnston - 05 Nov 2005

Carolyn, please join the homeschooling community!! We'd love to have you!

I ran into a mom who thinks Everday Math is great. Of course, her six year old went into first grade already knowing his add/sub facts and times tables up to 12 (thanks to mom). But what about those parents who leave it up to the school? Another mom I talked to about EM said, "well, it's JUST elementary school, I can't get worked up over it yet." What do you think the outcome will be with her kids?

I always say that the local elementary school should be grateful that I homeschool because I'd be one, loud, sqeaky wheel. They like the sheep who leave it all to the "experts".

-- NicksMama - 05 Nov 2005

"My school board member actually alluded to this point and said that in a larger school district you might be able to have charter schools run on different pedagogic priciples, but that we were too small. "

On what is he basing this cost analysis? He has just admitted that there are other viable pedagogic principles, but too bad, no can do. How big do you have to be? Many charter schools have less than 100 students. If our state lifted the restrictions on charter schools, many parents would be falling all over themselves to set one up.

"I always say that the local elementary school should be grateful that I homeschool because I'd be one, loud, sqeaky wheel. They like the sheep who leave it all to the "experts"."

They also have mixed feelings over the parents who put their kids into private schools. They are most likely the better students, but the school is glad to get rid of the parents. That just leaves the sheep.

-- SteveH - 06 Nov 2005

This is so much like the experience I had when Ben's elementary school switched from doing Saxon to doing Everyday math in 4th grade.

I was outraged, incensed. I took it on myself to talk to other parents and get their impressions of the curriculum. They all thought it was just fine. Some of their kids were doing better, some worse than with saxon -- they said. Of course, nobody was comparing the contents of the two curricula. They just went with the flow. There was no way they were going to support me in a revolt.

Same thing this year. Even my friend whose son is in the same Connected Math class, who taught a group of 4th graders at his son's schoool how to multiply a couple of years ago because they weren't learning how to do it, isn't willing to consider action.

Getting a lousy curriculum out of the school -- getting things changed -- takes concerted and politically effective effort, and I'm about as politically effective as a slice of bread.

It's interesting that your Irvington parents are willing to be up in arms about the writing program but not the math program.

I think Ben's writing program also sucks eggs. I think he should be doing lots of themes, as he did in grade school; he ought to, if he's ever to have a prayer of actually getting it. Instead he's writing letters about what he's reading.

Homeschooling, anyone? Honestly, we may as well teach our own kids everything; we will be anyway.

And that Dad with the schpiel about wanting kids to know how to measure a room with math -- I know his kind, too. I have a friend who's like that. He thinks Everyday Math is a great idea, but for him it's all kind of abstract. He's a well-known scientist and isn't involved with helping his kids with school the way his wife is. He's also taking for granted what he has in spades -- procedural math skills -- and wanting more on top of it, not realizing that he can't necessarily count on the same thing for his kids.

This has to go up front.

We've spent huge amounts of time focusing on the schools, the ed schools, the constructivists, etc.

But let me tell you: here in Irvington, the parents are tough.

If Irvington parents wanted serious math, we'd have serious math.

At this point I actually have quite a lot of 'street cred' on math; people have begun to assume I'm a math teacher.

Doesn't matter.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

I think my view now is that homeschooling is the way to go.

I say 'I think' because I'm still reading through all the literature, thinking it over. I'm trying to reach a 'broad conclusion,' not just a personal, 'I wish I'd homeschooled' conclusion.

Steinberg's book is probably going to be a tipping point for me.

It's one thing to hammer away at school administrators.

It's another to hammer away at your fellow parents.

And as for hammering the entire crowd of teenagers at your kid's school&mdashforget it.

That's not going to happen.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

I was outraged, incensed. I took it on myself to talk to other parents and get their impressions of the curriculum. They all thought it was just fine. Some of their kids were doing better, some worse than with saxon -- they said. Of course, nobody was comparing the contents of the two curricula. They just went with the flow. There was no way they were going to support me in a revolt.

Think about it.

Carolyn has a Ph.D. in math and other parents just blow her off. (This happens CONSTANTLY, to EVERYONE. I've seen it over & over & over again.)

This is probably another culture 'thing.' We Americans are probably pretty good at blowing off authority. I know I am!

When it comes to our schools, our strengths keep turning into weaknesses.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

My school district has a gazillion squeaky wheels.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

A mom told me the other day, 'You're an insider. Everyone knows you, they listen to you.'

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

Her son is one of the kids dropped from Phase 4 to Phase 3. I was, naturally, stirring the pot, telling her he's too smart to be in Phase 3, he needs to be in Phase 4, the school needs to remediate any weaknesses he developed thanks to having been skipped an entire book between grade 4 & grade 5.....

Then she said, 'The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and you're the squeaky wheel.'

She's right.

I'm another squeaky wheel—Ed is unbelievably persistent when he gets on the case—and in fact my kid, who was supposed to stay in Phase 3 for the rest of his natural life, is now not only in Phase 4, but is doing well in Phase 4.

AND sensible changes have been made to the course because of other parents' protests.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

What our parents are furious about is tracking.

The parents of the Phase 4 kids are very upset that their kids are being de-tracked.

But those parents, who have been organized, couldn't get support from the rest of us.

This is where I see DI as the answer to everyone's problems: the focus should be on teaching everyone as highly accelerated a math course as possible.

Every kid can start 'where he is'; then go-go-go as quickly as works for him.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

It's interesting that your Irvington parents are willing to be up in arms about the writing program but not the math program.

Yes, and that's a Stevenson & Stigler thing.

Americans are radically more focused on English language arts.

That's the subject where you'll get concerted, informed, effective parent politics.

Apparently there's a mom at Dows Lane (K-3) whose starting a committee to try to change the math curriculum. I haven't contacted her yet, but I will.

But I'm afraid her group is going to be along the 'track the smart kids' lines. Another mom told me that her complaint is that our schools 'teach to the lowest common denominator.'

If that's going to be the call to arms, there's not gonna be an army.

-- CatherineJohnson - 06 Nov 2005

Americans are radically more focused on English language arts.

That's the subject where you'll get concerted, informed, effective parent politics.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this one. Parents are just as clueless about English as they are with math maybe moreso. The only difference is that they know they don't know math (wrong answers have a way of doing that.); however, no one has ever let them in on the fact that they don't know english either. Unless, their job requires writing, and even then.

English programs are almost universally bad, as bad as in math.

-- KDeRosa - 06 Nov 2005

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this one. Parents are just as clueless about English as they are with math maybe moreso. The only difference is that they know they don't know math (wrong answers have a way of doing that.); however, no one has ever let them in on the fact that they don't know english either. Unless, their job requires writing, and even then.

lol!

English programs are almost universally bad, as bad as in math.

you were definitely way ahead of me on that one

(I do think parents are more concerned about ELA than about math....but I don't think that's the part you were disagreeing with?)

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

I think—though lord knows I'll probably turn out to be too optimistic on this one, too—parents have a general consensus that their kids need to be taught phonics in Kindergarten & first grade.

I think parents also have a working concept of what phonics is (my own concept is vague but passable).

But again.....it's always worse than you think.

-- CatherineJohnson - 09 Dec 2005

I think they are more concerned about ELA because they think they know it better than math. In fact they don't, as decades of SAT-V scores will attest.

-- KDeRosa - 09 Dec 2005

I think—though lord knows I'll probably turn out to be too optimistic on this one, too—parents have a general consensus that their kids need to be taught phonics in Kindergarten & first grade.

But they're wrong.

It's true that most ELA programs teach phonics. But it is also true that most ELA's teach phonics improperly. Parents don't know the difference.

-- KDeRosa - 09 Dec 2005

And phonics is only a small part of a successful ELA program, and most ELA programs in use get these other parts wrong too.

-- KDeRosa - 09 Dec 2005

Actually, what got me interested in this whole education nonsense was my attempt to find a good reading program. At the time, I couldn't possibly imagine that they could have screwed-up math too. Look how wrong I was.

-- KDeRosa - 09 Dec 2005

I'm sorry, but this made me laugh out loud at work, so I have to see it again:

Me: KIPP Academy! KIPP Academy! Help! Help! Hair on fire!

-- KtmGuest - 09 Dec 2005

This is from the website: http://www.illinoisloop.org/anon_thankyouwl.html

Thank you Whole Language. Thank you for your many pearls of wisdom. Thank you for Context Clues. Thank you for Prior Knowledge. Thank you for the Initial Consonant. Thank you for Picture Clues. Thank you for Miscues.

But most of all, thank you for my wife. The other day she and I were riding along the highway and saw a sign for a town called Verona, so my wife read "Veronica". It's very simple, you see. First she applied Context Clues (she knew we were looking for a name). Then she applied the Initial Consonant ("V"). Then she applied Prior Knowledge (she already knew of a name "Veronica"). She put these Whole Language strategies together and ... success! At least, as much success as we can expect, I suppose.

Thank you William S. Gray for inventing "Look-Say" and the "Dick and Jane" series of basal readers. Thank you A. Sterl Artley for helping Mr. Gray and for your phonics-bashing diatribes of the 1950s and 1960s. Thanks to the National Education Association for giving Mr. Gray and his friends two years of free promotion in the NEA Journal in 1930 and 1931. Together you all had managed to essentially eradicate phonics from America's public schools by the 1950s and early 60s, when my wife went to school.

But more importantly, thank you for my wife. Awhile back she was reading a pamphlet about something that was described as "venerable". Now that's a word you don't see every day, so what did she do but cleverly pull out her Whole Language skills? Context Clues, you see, told her that she was looking for an adjective. Next was the Initial Consonant "V". Then out came the Prior Knowledge -- she simply thought of an adjective she already knew that was about the right length and started with "V". And voila ... success again ... she came up with "vulnerable". Perfect! Well, at least as perfect as things get in publik ejukayshun, right?

Thanks Kenneth Goodman for reviving the floundering Look-Say, adding a few New Age twists and renaming it Whole Language back in the early 80s. Just like the Whole Earth Catalog and Whole Grains and everything else that was Whole ... what else could it be but wonderful? Without you, Kenneth, the evils of phonics might have returned, and then where would we have been?

Thank you Dorothy Strickland for "Emerging Literacy" -- the idea that kids are naturally inclined to read if only we will surround them with literature. Thanks to all the other Whole Language textbook authors who cranked out textbook after textbook that either omitted phonics entirely or disparaged phonics openly. Thank you Teachers College, Columbia for promoting Whole Language to teachers' colleges worldwide. Can you even imagine how effective you were in eradicating phonics instruction throughout the English-speaking world?

Thank you International Reading Association (IRA) and National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). For decades you appointed people like William S. Gray and Kenneth Goodman to lead your entire organizations in the fight against phonics. Somehow you raised hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of dollars to pay PR firms to get their opinions so heavily quoted in the press that the public is now completely confused in its ideas about what works and what doesn't work in reading instruction.

But once again thank you for my wife. Awhile back she was reading about some Congregational Church. And do you know, even with the Context Clues and the Prior Knowledge (about what names churches might have, presumably) and the Initial Consonant, she still managed to come up with "Congressional Church". Even though this was years ago, I remember it like it was yesterday.

Thank you Alfie Kohn and Dennis Baron and Mike Ford and Gerald Coles and Harvey Daniels and Gerald Bracey and Susan Ohanian and Stephen Krashen and Jim Trelease and all the other propagandists who lash out continuously against successful practice in general and phonics in particular. Through your tireless efforts, the public is continually misinformed. Without the public's perpetual state of confusion and misinformation, Whole Language would not have survived a single day. Thank you for keeping Look-Say and Whole Language and Balanced Literacy alive to create yet another generation of people who can read as well as my wife does.

Speaking of my wife, last night she was reading a brochure aloud about a museum with an "eclectic" collection, and what do you suppose she said? You guessed it (and so did she): "electric"! Maybe the absence of the Initial Consonant threw her off.

Thank you Marie Clay for inventing the phenomenally expensive Reading Recovery, a program installed in virtually every public school, it seems, and designed to treat the educational effects of Whole Language by applying yet more Whole Language. Thank you for giving my school district more stuff like this to spend my tax money on. How is it that I am not clever enough to imagine things like this?

Thank you Richard Allington, current (2005) president of the International Reading Association, for your campaign of misinformation against Direct Instruction (a successful phonics-based program). The cleverness of your propaganda puts the Soviets, the Chinese Communists, and all the other tyrants of the 20th century to shame. You know of course that Direct Instruction (DI) participated in a huge study (Project Follow Through) in which all the participants except DI failed, and in which DI succeeded brilliantly. And so you twist this around to say that by virtue of its association in this study with the constructivist-favored instructional styles that failed so miserably, we should all conclude that DI must necessarily also have been a failure. Your logic, so typical of that of the IRA, the NCTE, and the rest of the Constructivist Cabal, is irrefutable.

But once again thank you all for my wife. Hardly a day goes by when she does not demonstrate the success of Look-Say, or Whole Language, or Balanced Literacy or whatever you all call it now. Really, it's so amusing I really can't even quantify it. I never know what she'll read next ... and neither does she! Just imagine all her Miscues!

The sheer unpredictability of listening to her read is astounding ... and unpredictability is the essence of entertainment, right? I mean, she might read "deleterious" as "delicious" or perhaps "injurious" as "injustice" or "parabola" as "parachute" or maybe "quintessence" as "quintuplet", or "signify" as "signature". I could go on and on almost endlessly. The laughs just never stop here. And all thanks to you. All of you.

So thank you, Whole Language. Where would we be without you? The possibilities just boggle the mind.

-- Anonymous

[Note: This author normally signs his work, but in this case declines because he doesn't want his wife identified in this manner.]

-- LoneRanger - 09 Dec 2005

I just saw this!

I'll get it put up front after Christmas.

Of course, Carolyn tells me no one looks at the front page any more......so I don't know why I'm going to all this work.

Oh!

Yes, I do.

I'm going to all this work so these things show up in the Category threads

-- CatherineJohnson - 24 Dec 2005

A link to an article titled, "A textbook case of failure--Politically driven adoption system yields shallow, misleading materials," is running on msn's home page tonight. Wang (formerly with Saxon) is quoted in the article and there is also a reference to Dianne Ravitch.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12705167/?GT1=8199

-- KarenA - 17 May 2006

TIMSSslump fourthgradeslump TIMSSdecline

-- CatherineJohnson - 17 Sep 2006

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Attachment	Action	Size	Date	Who	Comment
800px-Sketch-4race-transparent.png	manage	105.3 K	04 Nov 2005 - 21:12	KDeRosa	Racial IQ graph